Is being a Muslim a prerequisite for being a Pashtun?

[MostafaM]

Mostafa, recently I wrote something about Buddha in Gandharan art. If you want I can provide you with list of publications about Buddhist sites in present Afghanistan. One of the most famous - in Bagram, where the airport is.

That would be wonderful.


Thanks in advance!

[یاسمینه]

OK. I will PM on Wednesday.

If you want to read something right now, go to http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/buddhism-iv

[Alchemist]

Whats up with you and insulting people, you must be one of those barabaric farsiwan who cant debate intellectually. You cant fight, you cant have an intellectual conversation, what are you good for?

You do realize the founding fathers legacy and system of governance lasted to this day is because America was left alone and was left to naturally evolve. It was protected by two huge oceans and couldnt be touched by outsiders, whereas Afghansitan was surrounded by great enemies. America had a bloody civil war and still no force on earth could interfere with it. You think if America was surrounded by powerful enemies, you would have the freedom to sell pork products in Canada?
You should thank the two mighty oceans for that.

Equal opportunity came in the 1960's and 1970's. before that equal opportunity was for the privilaged. America had a feudal system in the south. You are not familiar with America's history and why it came to be what it is today.

The original argument was about what people individually think what a pashtun is. Barackzai has opinions and I have mine, I dont even know why you commented on this thread since you are not a pashtun, just to insult our forefathers. Its you who is losing focus. If you respect a man that brought calamity to Afghanistan and despise those that brought greatness to Afghanistan, your alot sicker than I thought.

LOL

why are you talking about oceans now?

America was a Feudal state? LOL
I guess you don't know what feudal even means...and you are here to teach me political science? Yeah and the bill of rights was written in 1960 and 70s...

Great arguments sir...

I lose...

You win....whatever it is you were arguing

[Talal]

What are the sikh's living in KP for over a century..what do they call themselves even if they speak perfect pashto ?

The question would be easier to answer if Pakhtun was a nationality..but its not and you cannot be a part of an ethnicity if you are not born into it and dont follow the culture and pakhtun culture is too influenced by Islam to allow room for a person who holds different beliefs

[abassinafghan]

being a muslim doesnt make you an arab , just call the saudi or uae or omani or any other ambessay , and ask for pana , and tell them your story , and how good muslims you are , i think they wont give you a visa let alone a permanent residence card .

so being a muslim doesnt make you an afghan , , if see all this arab hobos here on the board talking about afghan and pashtun affairs , without knowing the language the culture and history .

a pashtun is who is born to a pashtun father simple as that , every pashtun is an afghan , but not every afghan must be a pashtun today .

you can be a kafir like soldatamir , and still be a pashtun , no one can take this away from him , he can also denie his heritage but he keeps to be a pashtun . like it or not .

[roadrunner]

Ghundal, you're completely ignorant. There is a huge amount of evidence for the Buddhist past of Pashtun areas. Look at Swat.

[roadrunner]

for the last time, bani israel has been conclusively rejected by genetics testing.

[Soldat_Amir]

Lets cut to the chase.

Pashtuns existed before Islam ever came around. If you are curious to your origins. Find a DNA clinic online or go to your university department that studies peoples DNA and you will find out if you was a Arab, Jew, Chinese, Mongol, Punjabi, Turk or even from Babylonia.

I did mine with my wife, both of us are from Waziristan,and our results came out as

ZERO ARAB
ZERO TURK

Pashtuns as a race and people have nothing to do with Arabs or any religion.

Even Luffy wrote somewhere about Babar diary whereby he wrote the tribes in todays Bajaur agency or Mohmand were Pagans! yes Pagans, while the rest were Muslims....So not all Pashtuns were Muslims or submitted themselves to any religion, neither Judaism, Christianity or Islam, they lived with their own unique beliefs, and I consider them the real genuine Pashtuns...That is just my opinion, dont be offended by it, because it is a fact.

[Soldat_Amir]

The whole Pashtun=Muslims propaganda was mass produced by Zia ul haq to counter Pashtun Nationalist sentiment against Pakistan occupation of Pakhtunkhwa and FATA.

Why do you think Taliban started bombing Budda statues even though they stood still in past Islamic empires, why do you think the Taliban looted Greek historical items to the black market just to rid the land of its rich culture and heritage.

Do Arabs say Muslim equals Arab???? because there sure is many Arab Christians and Arab Jews, why only Pashtuns are labelled with this?????

Some will be very disappointed because I have met quite a lot of agnostic Pashtuns too, I would have loved to screenshot their PMs of supporter but I want to protect their Identity from unsavory people.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What do you know of AHmad Shah Abdali or Mir Wais?

Do you know their detailed biographies? Do you know their habits, their daily activities, what they liked to wear, eat, hunt, grow etc? Or how religious they were, what their political views were? Do you have records of their speeches or writings?

I doubt there exists as much biographical data on those two pashtuns as the americans you compare them to. So these "prototypes" are mere fantasy vessels that are to be filled with your own ideals of what a pashtun ought to be.

Just sayin.

Well I would say that the issue isnot that we need to know exactly how each of them combed their hair... but how they approached big picture issues and how current leaders measure up to them.

So for instance, a common charge against Mullah Omar is that he gave refuge to Arab exiles and that he took on the plight of foreign Islamic causes and that he is fighting a war from a foreign safe haven.

What we for 100% sure know based on documentation from the Ottoman Empire's time is that Ahmad Shah Abdali proposed the Ottomons and the Afghans pairing up to intervene on behalf of the Khoja Muslim population and that he sent emissaries to China to plead their case. Though they were fugitives that the Manchu Chinese had head prices on, they had a safe haven in Afghanistan.

What we also know is that when his father was under threat for his life he took refuge away from Kandahar in Multan and there was a contingent of Popalzai left there that would subsequently help Ahmad Shah cross the Indus.

There are other Pashtun measuring sticks too. For instance, Karzai very much resembles Shah Shujah.

And no Abbassina, its all fact whether its in English or Pashto. I dont need a book from Kabul to tell me its fact.

[khushal]

LOL

why are you talking about oceans now?

America was a Feudal state? LOL
I guess you don't know what feudal even means...and you are here to teach me political science? Yeah and the bill of rights was written in 1960 and 70s...

Great arguments sir...

I lose...

You win....whatever it is you were arguing

It is you who dont know what feudal means, thats funny because your Tajiks are feudal. The American south was a feudal society. Why do you think the slave trade was in the south and not in the north.

http://www.studyworld.com/feudalistic_culture_in_the_south.htm

The bill of rights were written thousands of years before Jefferson was born. It was mostly written by greek philosephers. Jefferson and most of the other foudning fathers were students of Greek thought. Only an idiot like you beleive that freedom is an American invention. Freedom is as old as man himself. Jefferson himself was a slave owner, do you think he was extending the rights granted by the bill of rights to his slaves.
Come on that stuff came in the 60's and 70's.

Conclusion: Your an egotistical idiot, get your head out of your arse and maybe you can learn a thing or two.

[Alchemist]

It is you who dont know what feudal means, thats funny because your Tajiks are feudal. The American south was a feudal society. Why do you think the slave trade was in the south and not in the north.

http://www.studyworld.com/feudalistic_culture_in_the_south.htm

The bill of rights were written thousands of years before Jefferson was born. It was mostly written by greek philosephers. Jefferson and most of the other foudning fathers were students of Greek thought. Only an idiot like you beleive that freedom is an American invention. Freedom is as old as man himself. Jefferson himself was a slave owner, do you think he was extending the rights granted by the bill of rights to his slaves.
Come on that stuff came in the 60's and 70's.

Conclusion: Your an egotistical idiot, get your head out of your arse and maybe you can learn a thing or two.

You are HIGHly funny.

To back your audacious claim you have presented a random essay from "Studyworld" which is suppose to be a bank of essays by random people for their highschool assignments? Even in the page it self, there is a rebuttal to the argument of the essay. Furthermore the argument is made that a "feudalistic culture" existed but obviously the system of governance was not feudalistic but democratic. Such a futile and lame effort to keep your own head up your own arse.

And what is this about "my tajiks"? Am I tajiki? Not really.

But if you are saying that Pashtuns were not feudal then you really don't know what feudalism means. The reason why the Durrani empire didn't last that long was simply because it was feudal. So long as a strong king is present, the lesser "lords" feel the need to vow allegiance to the king for support. So the comparison between Afghan Kings and "founding fathers" is faulty because the "founding fathers" FOUNDED something. That something which you claim was already "founded" by the greeks? No..that again is your own ignorance. Specifically it was John Locke who had inspired the "founding fathers". John Locke in Second Treatise of Governance:

Sec. 25. Whether we consider natural reason, which tells us, that men, being
once born, have a right to their preservation, and consequently to meat and
drink, and such other things as nature affords for their subsistence: or
revelation, which gives us an account of those grants God made of the world
to Adam, and to Noah, and his sons, it is very clear, that God, as king
David says, Psal. cxv. 16. has given the earth to the children of men; given
it to mankind in common. But this being supposed, it seems to some a very
great difficulty, how any one should ever come to have a property in any
thing: I will not content myself to answer, that if it be difficult to make
out property, upon a supposition that God gave the world to Adam, and his
posterity in common, it is impossible that any man, but one universal
monarch, should have any property upon a supposition, that God gave the
world to Adam, and his heirs in succession, exclusive of all the rest of his
posterity. But I shall endeavour to shew, how men might come to have a
property in several parts of that which God gave to mankind in common, and
that without any express compact of all the commoners.

Then take this and compare it to Plato's Republic and you will see the staunch contrast between the two ...if you have the insight to discern the difference.

It is no hidden lie that the founding fathers were deeply influenced by their religious convictions. And Thomas Jefferson was explicitly a Unitarian Christian (which is the closest form to Tawhid). And no so much "greek" as you believe them to be.

Even Slavery is deemed permissible in Islam. Even the Holy Prophet peace be upon him had "slaves"....followers of him who offered to be his servant willingly.

And even John Locke discusses Slavery in Second treaties of Governance:

Sec. 24. This is the perfect condition of slavery, which is nothing else,

but the state of war continued, between a lawful conqueror and a captive:

for, if once compact enter between them, and make an agreement for a limited

power on the one side, and obedience on the other, the state of war and

slavery ceases, as long as the compact endures: for, as has been said, no

man can, by agreement, pass over to another that which he hath not in

himself, a power over his own life.



I confess, we find among the Jews, as well as other nations, that men did

sell themselves; but, it is plain, this was only to drudgery, not to

slavery: for, it is evident, the person sold was not under an absolute,

arbitrary, despotical power: for the master could not have power to kill

him, at any time, whom, at a certain time, he was obliged to let go free out

of his service; and the master of such a servant was so far from having an

arbitrary power over his life, that he could not, at pleasure, so much as

maim him, but the loss of an eye, or tooth, set him free, Exod. xxi.

Now this might prove to be a difficult read for you who cannot even discern the difference between a feudal state and a republic state.

So let me say it like this - what you consider to be "freedom" of 60's and 70's, the civil liberties, the feminine right movements, have all been for naught. In reality serfdom has returned full swing, and today, the way that capitalism grows on its own rotting decay, we can safely say that we are living in Plato's republic - where a minority chosen few rule over the rest. If blacks were slaves then, they still are...and what happened in New Orleans when katrina hit just went to show how neglected blacks really are. Is there still not an economic disparity between blacks and whites in America?

It is only because you see some black super stars on MTV cribs once in a while, that you think that blacks are doing better now than before. In reality the economic gap between blacks and whites is the same as it was since the 60s. So all this hoo haa about the 60's and 70s is just media hype that you have put too much faith on. You need to do your own research about America's history and stop acting like you know America because you are in America.

And you know what else my friend? Ahmad Shah Abdali was fluent in Farsi. Several of his poems were written in dari. After all he served in the army of Nadir Shah (persian) and his wife was a mughal. So it could be said that he was a farsiwan too. Now shove that in your pipe and smoke it...


p.s slavery was live and thriving in the North. As a matter of fact most of the slaver traders did their business in New York. (google new york slave trade)

[Alchemist]

Well I would say that the issue isnot that we need to know exactly how each of them combed their hair... but how they approached big picture issues and how current leaders measure up to them.

So for instance, a common charge against Mullah Omar is that he gave refuge to Arab exiles and that he took on the plight of foreign Islamic causes and that he is fighting a war from a foreign safe haven.

What we for 100% sure know based on documentation from the Ottoman Empire's time is that Ahmad Shah Abdali proposed the Ottomons and the Afghans pairing up to intervene on behalf of the Khoja Muslim population and that he sent emissaries to China to plead their case. Though they were fugitives that the Manchu Chinese had head prices on, they had a safe haven in Afghanistan.

What we also know is that when his father was under threat for his life he took refuge away from Kandahar in Multan and there was a contingent of Popalzai left there that would subsequently help Ahmad Shah cross the Indus.

There are other Pashtun measuring sticks too. For instance, Karzai very much resembles Shah Shujah.

And no Abbassina, its all fact whether its in English or Pashto. I dont need a book from Kabul to tell me its fact.

So could you say that Ahmad Shah Abdali was a pious Muslim?
He was a monarch, so even if you make such spurious comparison between him and Mullah Omar...who is to say in what context exactly? Was he being benevolent? Or Machiavellian? Or that like Mullah Omar, he wished to further the cause of Allah? And what was his position towards the Khilafat of the Ottomon when he had fought for the Shia, Nadir Shah, who opposed the Ottomon?

This is just futile because it is so cumbersome. We are simply chasing a mirage of a man.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

So could you say that Ahmad Shah Abdali was a pious Muslim?
He was a monarch, so even if you make such spurious comparison between him and Mullah Omar...who is to say in what context exactly? Was he being benevolent? Or Machiavellian? Or that like Mullah Omar, he wished to further the cause of Allah? And what was his position towards the Khilafat of the Ottomon when he had fought for the Shia, Nadir Shah, who opposed the Ottomon?

This is just futile because it is so cumbersome. We are simply chasing a mirage of a man.

Nadir qoli beg was a Sunni... This was possibly a factor in his eventual demise.

[DaMalakandGhar]

Also, when we go back home... for the most part my cousins and others around the world dont view us as "Americans" ... they view white Anglo Saxons as "Americans." To them we are Afghans on the north American continent. However, in their view Ricky Santorum, Jane Fonda, and George washington are Americans

So have the grand children of Osama Bin Laden started looking at you as an Arab despite your earnest desire to sacrifice every Pashtun whether a newborn baby or a grown-up man or woman for Arab honour sane your own self and your kids being raised in the lavishes of America?