Is being a Muslim a prerequisite for being a Pashtun?

[roadrunner]

+1 karachi. those are the true hypocrites

[abassinafghan]

there are ARABS who are not muslims but still arabs , there are iranians who are not muslims but still they are considerd iranians , there are kurds , who a yesids , christians , muslims but they are still considerd kurds .

so the question is some how stupid .


one thing is religion the other is ethnicity , there where pashtuns who were not muslims , because islam didnt existed back then .

they were pagans , zorastirians ,maybe buddhists ...


so one can be pashtun but not a muslim . let alone afghan .


however ,religion has got its part in the pashtun culutre , and one would question is somebody decides to be a kafir , if he really lives his culutre .

subgroups such as Muhammadzai Kabul dynasty pashtuns

i have never heard such an phrase or term , i guess that is who americanized pashtuns of the second generation in greater californistan
or new yorkoabad , sound like ....

[Alchemist]

So if being pashtun means having a pashtun father, then i know many pashtuns whose fathers and forefathers are pashtun but they don't speak a word of pashtu or know anything about "pashtunwali'.

Then is the other criteria for being a pashtun to be an illiterate farmer?

[Alchemist]

I dont think you got the message becasue you are canadian and not familiar with America. When Americans argue about what a patriot is, they always compare themselves to the founding fathers of America. Barackzai was trying to portray that pashtuns compare themsleves to mirwais baba and ahmed shah baba. They united the pashtun tribes against a common enemy just like the American founding fathers united the colonies against the brits.

Not familiar with America?

LOL ...understatement of the century. The whole world is familiar with America my dear.

The founding fathers were "men of reason" and their aspirations and goals may be found in writing. All their efforts have been chronicled, by themselves and their peers. the likes of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and George Washington were academics in their own rights. You can find manuscripts, diaries, letters written by these men so you could discern what their thoughts and motivations were.

Ahmadshah abadali and Mirwais were horseback riders... in all honesty. Little is known of their character and valour. It's just fantasy.

[khushal]

Not familiar with America?

LOL ...understatement of the century. The whole world is familiar with America my dear.

The founding fathers were "men of reason" and their aspirations and goals may be found in writing. All their efforts have been chronicled, by themselves and their peers. the likes of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and George Washington were academics in their own rights. You can find manuscripts, diaries, letters written by these men so you could discern what their thoughts and motivations were.

Ahmadshah abadali and Mirwais were horseback riders... in all honesty. Little is known of their character and valour. It's just fantasy.

Unlike your hero, Masood, who brought a calamity to Afghanistan, who you compare to Alexander, Ahmed Shah Baba and Meirwais Neeka united their people against a common enemy and transformed Afghanistan into something to be reckon with. The Durrani Empire was second to the Ottomans in the region. Sure they rode on horses but so did the founding fathers of America. Men of reason unite people and transform their society.

You cant find hardly anything written by Alexander but you still compare your hero Masood to him, whats up with that? Hypocrit

[Alchemist]

Unlike your hero, Masood, who brought a calamity to Afghanistan, who you compare to Alexander, Ahmed Shah Baba and Meirwais Neeka united their people against a common enemy and transformed Afghanistan into something to be reckon with. The Durrani Empire was second to the Ottomans in the region. Sure they rode on horses but so did the founding fathers of America.

You cant find hardly anything written by Alexander but you still compare your hero Masood to him, whats up with that? Hypocrit

One of the side effects of smoking too much dope is that you constantly lose your train of thought. So I forgive you.

Try to think back to what the original discussion was son. We were discussing the 'prototypical' pashtun. It could hardly be said that only those who unite the rest of the pashtuns are a true pashtun. If that were the case, then there wouldn't be any unity at all since every pashtun would try to subdue the next to follow him. Where as Washington and the founding fathers had a left a legacy that existed in it's purest form up to a 200 years at least, the Durrani Empire only lasted 30 some odd years. You are comparing a group of men who had established a system of governance that it's time was truest form of "equal opportunity" to that of Durrani's Feudal rule? Does that make any sense?

The reason why I don't frequent the forum so much anymore is that I've found that the majority of you lack any reasoning capabilities. When I say something, try to keep it in the context of the discussion. What I meant and said was that great and ambitious commanders are usually killed by their own men, who tire of waging war and wish to relish the lavish life of a conquering people - so masood was killed by his own followers, like Alexander and Julius Caesar and maybe even Gengis khan were killed by their own follower ...who tired of following them to the battlefields.

Next time you want to post to me ...please put your thinking cap on I grow weary of explaining my self over and over to you people.

[khushal]

One of the side effects of smoking too much dope is that you constantly lose your train of thought. So I forgive you.

Try to think back to what the original discussion was son. We were discussing the 'prototypical' pashtun. It could hardly be said that only those who unite the rest of the pashtuns are a true pashtun. If that were the case, then there wouldn't be any unity at all since every pashtun would try to subdue the next to follow him. Where as Washington and the founding fathers had a left a legacy that existed in it's purest form up to a 200 years at least, the Durrani Empire only lasted 30 some odd years. You are comparing a group of men who had established a system of governance that it's time was truest form of "equal opportunity" to that of Durrani's Feudal rule? Does that make any sense?

The reason why I don't frequent the forum so much anymore is that I've found that the majority of you lack any reasoning capabilities. When I say something, try to keep it in the context of the discussion. What I meant and said was that great and ambitious commanders are usually killed by their own men, who tire of waging war and wish to relish the lavish life of a conquering people - so masood was killed by his own followers, like Alexander and Julius Caesar and maybe even Gengis khan were killed by their own follower ...who tired of following them to the battlefields.

Next time you want to post to me ...please put your thinking cap on I grow weary of explaining my self over and over to you people.

Whats up with you and insulting people, you must be one of those barabaric farsiwan who cant debate intellectually. You cant fight, you cant have an intellectual conversation, what are you good for?

You do realize the founding fathers legacy and system of governance lasted to this day is because America was left alone and was left to naturally evolve. It was protected by two huge oceans and couldnt be touched by outsiders, whereas Afghansitan was surrounded by great enemies. America had a bloody civil war and still no force on earth could interfere with it. You think if America was surrounded by powerful enemies, you would have the freedom to sell pork products in Canada?
You should thank the two mighty oceans for that.

Equal opportunity came in the 1960's and 1970's. before that equal opportunity was for the privilaged. America had a feudal system in the south. You are not familiar with America's history and why it came to be what it is today.

The original argument was about what people individually think what a pashtun is. Barackzai has opinions and I have mine, I dont even know why you commented on this thread since you are not a pashtun, just to insult our forefathers. Its you who is losing focus. If you respect a man that brought calamity to Afghanistan and despise those that brought greatness to Afghanistan, your alot sicker than I thought.

[Admin Khan]

Well said Barakzai sahab. You are probably the only member who answered the question. I hope this will now put a rest to all those who try to define Pashtuns for their own strategic interest. I would really appreciate it if members would first ask more about the question before they begin wiggling their tail and deeming it useless. This question has been brought up about a hundred times, and my intention was to put the nails in the coffin. Its safe to say that I wasnt scratching my head when I posted this.

Salamoona Admin, good question, As always such things are complex. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder... so too are loyalties...

So for instance George Washington, You, Me, Ron Paul, Rick Santorum, Alan Dershowitz, and Jane Fonda are all Americans by the technical definition.

And everyone agrees that these people all have American citizenship right?

Yet, if you talk to a Vietnam Vet about Jane Fonda... please do not tell him you are a fan for your own safety. In their view they refer to her as unAmerican for her activities.

Also, when we go back home... for the most part my cousins and others around the world dont view us as "Americans" ... they view white Anglo Saxons as "Americans." To them we are Afghans on the north American continent. However, in their view Ricky Santorum, Jane Fonda, and George washington are Americans.

Now amongst American educated elite... say like Michael Scheuer, Alan Dershowitz and his fifth column citizenry make him unAmerican.

The rhetoric you and I are exposed to generally when we watch the Republican debates here usually involves the crowds booing Ron Paul and calling him "unAmerican"

So by this same token in the Pashtun population we have:

Pakistani Pashtuns, Afghanistan's Pashtuns, subgroups such as Muhammadzai Kabul dynasty pashtuns, rural villagers, Karachiites that are second generation Pashtuns there... Pashtuns in the north of Afghanistan etc.

Ethnically these people are all capable of being called Pashtun. But what happens is when one group is mad at the other?

For instance if Pakistani pashtuns are patriotic Pakistanis they are called Ranjit Singh etc. Indianized... and even non Pashtun. Afghans that support Karzai are called sell outs and non Pashtun or farsiwanaan as a pejorative term. Taliban ideologues are called Panjabis by their killers in the Khost Protection Force.

I would say that for me, the issue is that people generally laugh and sneer at the tribal system now a days referring to the general tribal tree we were all taught as children by our parents (the names of our forefathers) as not having a basis in history. They say these were all propaganda generated in Aurengzaib's time and that these force us to hearken back to the out of Israel theory. These folks are now saying that the genetic heritages of differnet Pashtun groups vary.

Then in that case, there are prototypical Pashtuns. To me, these prototypes... e.g. just as George Washington is the prototypical American... are Mir Wais and Ahmad Shah Abdali.

In my personal view the closer our semblance is to these two men the more Pashtun we are.

[badmash_khel]

No its not. As long as the person identifies himself as pashtun, speaks pashto or shows interest in learning it and works for pashtuns interests then he is pashtun. There can be muslim, jewish, atheist, hindu, sikh or any other type of pashtun. Faith and ethnic identity is different things and shouldn't be mixed. Pashtuns have been muslims for probably 1100 years but they might have been pagan, budhist or any other religion before that. Religions may come and go but pashtuns will remain in form or another.
Our ancestors fought against muslims before they became muslims, it took a long time for pashtuns to eventually become muslims, at that time many of pashtuns who became muslims might have been considered traitors by the other majority pashtuns who hadn't become muslims yet. The same thing is happening again, those pashtuns who are not muslims are called traitors but the irony is that once the same muslim pashtuns might have been considered traitors.

[MostafaM]

I think there is a universal definition of "Pashtun":

in Pashto you say "Pashto kawel" or when someone asks you to adhere to the code of Pashtuns, he says " Zma sarra Pashto wuka!".

The basic codes of Pashtunwali are known to all Pashtuns.
If one sticks to that code, then you are Pashtun.

Talking Pashto, having a Pashtun father or being raised in Pashtun sociaty doesn´t neccessarily make you Pashtun if you don´t have it in you.

[Ghundal]

Bottom line in regards to this question is the present.


There is also no evidence that shows Pashtuns were polytheists.

Since Pashtuns were Bani Israel, then Pashtuns technically were monotheists even before they accepted Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as the last messenger as well as Prophet Isa (pbuh). No where in the historical record does it show that Pashtuns were Bhuddists or polytheists. No research indicates this either. Again, not that this discussion matters, but the reason people bring it up is to pose whether or not Pashtuns can harken back to this false past of apostasy. This hope is posed when there is realization that no measure of imposing foreign and unwanted ideologies upon Pashtuns through bloodshed will work.


So, in addressing the question, one addresses history.

Aside from disgraced types such as Najib, there is no historical Pashtun figure that ascribed to secularism or apostasy.

[MostafaM]

Your "Bani Israel" theory has been refuted a long time ago.


The Kushans of Kabul worshipped Hindu gods and Buddha.

Shadows in the Desert: Ancient Persia at War By Kaveh Farrokh Published by Osprey Publishing, 2007 Page152

You need some history lessons.One can find pictures of Shiva in places like Termez in the north aswell as in Gardez.

History of Civilizations of central Asia, B A Litvinsky. Zhang Guang -Da, R Shabani Samghabadi, Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, page 427.



Hinduism and Buddhism were the religion of the masses in modern day Afghanistan.

A Glossary Of The Tribes And Castes Of The Punjab And North-West Frontier Province Vol. 3 By H.A. Rose, Denzil Ibbetson Sir Published by Atlantic Publishers & Distributors, 1997 Page 211

[Ghundal]

[QUOTE]

Your "Bani Israel" theory has been refuted a long time ago.

No it hasnt. Pashtuns themselves have affirmed this.

The Kushans of Kabul worshipped Hindu gods and Buddha.

Except these are guesses. Khushans may not have anything at all to do with Pashtuns. Scythians may or may not be linked with Pashtuns.

There is no evidence showing Buddhist links in Pashtun areas.

Shadows in the Desert: Ancient Persia at War By Kaveh Farrokh Published by Osprey Publishing, 2007 Page152

Hinduism and Buddhism were the religion of the masses in modern day Afghanistan.

A Glossary Of The Tribes And Castes Of The Punjab And North-West Frontier Province Vol. 3 By H.A. Rose, Denzil Ibbetson Sir Published by Atlantic Publishers & Distributors, 1997 Page 211

Hinduism and Buddhism were the religion of the Punjab.

Your link shows nothing in regards to Pashtuns

What did you do, just looked at a random page, and thought I would not check

[MostafaM]

1. Pashtuns have affirmed this?
How and when?
Any facts?

2. "May"?
Talk facts or leave it.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/537752/Shahi-Family

"...Shāhi Family, also called Shāhiya, dynasty of some 60 rulers who governed the Kābul valley (in Afghanistan) and the old province of Gandhāra from the decline of the Kushān empire in the 3rd century ad. The word Shāhi, the title of the rulers, is related to the old Kushān form shao, or “king.” The dynasty probably descended from the Kushāns, or Turks (Tarushkas). Nothing is recorded of the history of the long line until the last king, Lagatūrmān, who reigned at the end of the 9th century and who was thrown in prison by his minister, a Brahman named Kallar. Kallar then usurped the throne and founded a new dynasty, the Hindu Shāhi, which ruled the area at the time of Maḥmūd’s invasion of India from Ghazna (modern Ghaznī, Afg.) in 1001. The Shāhis maintained a hopeless resistance against Maḥmūd’s forces but fell in 1021. They were so thoroughly extinguished that 30 years later the commentator Kalhaṇa said that men wondered whether they had ever existed. The historian al-Bīrūnī also noted their disappearance and paid high tribute to their nobility of character...."

3."...During the eighth and ninth centuries AD the eastern parts of modern Afghanistan were still in the hands of non-Muslim rulers. The Muslims tended to regard them as Indians, although many of the local rulers were apparently of Hunnic or Turkic descent. Yet, the Muslims were right in so far as the non Muslim population of Eastern Afghanistan was, culturally, strongly linked to the Indian sub-continent. Most of them were either Hindus or Buddhists. By Willem Vogelsang"

"...Al Beruni mentions the Afghans once (ed Sachau, I 208) saying that in the western mountains of India live various tribes of Afghans who extend to the neighborhood of the Sindh (i.e., Indus) valley. Thus in the eleventh century when the Afghans are first mentioned, they are found occupying the Sulaiman Mountains now occupied by their descendants, the very tribes which the advocates of the exclusive claims of the Durannis will not admit to be true Afghans. Al Beruni no doubt also alludes to them in the passage (loc. Cit. p 199) where he says that rebellious savage races, tribes of Hindus, or akin to them inhabit the mountains which form the frontier of India towards the west...."

A Glossary Of The Tribes And Castes Of The Punjab And North-West Frontier Province Vol. 3 By H.A. Rose, Denzil Ibbetson Sir Published by Atlantic Publishers & Distributors, 1997 Page 211


The question remains where you checked what.....


Gut feelings - more popular each day - YouTube

[یاسمینه]

Mostafa, recently I wrote something about Buddha in Gandharan art. If you want I can provide you with list of publications about Buddhist sites in present Afghanistan. One of the most famous - in Bagram, where the airport is.