Is being a Muslim a prerequisite for being a Pashtun?

[Admin Khan]

Greetings PukhtunForums,


Question: Is being a Muslim a prerequisite for being a Pashtun?


This is a question that I have noticed is constantly arising in nearly all our threads, and I'd like community members to ponder over this question, and share their constructive analysis while they're at it. Let's put a rest to this question, and discuss it here for once and for all.


I'll keep my opinion for the end.

[roadrunner]

no

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Greetings PukhtunForums,


Question: Is being a Muslim a prerequisite for being a Pashtun?


This is a question that I have noticed is constantly arising in nearly all our threads, and I'd like community members to ponder over this question, and share their constructive analysis while they're at it. Let's put a rest to this question, and discuss it here for once and for all.


I'll keep my opinion for the end.

Salamoona Admin, good question, As always such things are complex. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder... so too are loyalties...

So for instance George Washington, You, Me, Ron Paul, Rick Santorum, Alan Dershowitz, and Jane Fonda are all Americans by the technical definition.

And everyone agrees that these people all have American citizenship right?

Yet, if you talk to a Vietnam Vet about Jane Fonda... please do not tell him you are a fan for your own safety. In their view they refer to her as unAmerican for her activities.

Also, when we go back home... for the most part my cousins and others around the world dont view us as "Americans" ... they view white Anglo Saxons as "Americans." To them we are Afghans on the north American continent. However, in their view Ricky Santorum, Jane Fonda, and George washington are Americans.

Now amongst American educated elite... say like Michael Scheuer, Alan Dershowitz and his fifth column citizenry make him unAmerican.

The rhetoric you and I are exposed to generally when we watch the Republican debates here usually involves the crowds booing Ron Paul and calling him "unAmerican"

So by this same token in the Pashtun population we have:

Pakistani Pashtuns, Afghanistan's Pashtuns, subgroups such as Muhammadzai Kabul dynasty pashtuns, rural villagers, Karachiites that are second generation Pashtuns there... Pashtuns in the north of Afghanistan etc.

Ethnically these people are all capable of being called Pashtun. But what happens is when one group is mad at the other?

For instance if Pakistani pashtuns are patriotic Pakistanis they are called Ranjit Singh etc. Indianized... and even non Pashtun. Afghans that support Karzai are called sell outs and non Pashtun or farsiwanaan as a pejorative term. Taliban ideologues are called Panjabis by their killers in the Khost Protection Force.

I would say that for me, the issue is that people generally laugh and sneer at the tribal system now a days referring to the general tribal tree we were all taught as children by our parents (the names of our forefathers) as not having a basis in history. They say these were all propaganda generated in Aurengzaib's time and that these force us to hearken back to the out of Israel theory. These folks are now saying that the genetic heritages of differnet Pashtun groups vary.

Then in that case, there are prototypical Pashtuns. To me, these prototypes... e.g. just as George Washington is the prototypical American... are Mir Wais and Ahmad Shah Abdali.

In my personal view the closer our semblance is to these two men the more Pashtun we are.

[Alchemist]

Then in that case, there are prototypical Pashtuns. To me, these prototypes... e.g. just as George Washington is the prototypical American... are Mir Wais and Ahmad Shah Abdali.

In my personal view the closer our semblance is to these two men the more Pashtun we are.

What do you know of AHmad Shah Abdali or Mir Wais?

Do you know their detailed biographies? Do you know their habits, their daily activities, what they liked to wear, eat, hunt, grow etc? Or how religious they were, what their political views were? Do you have records of their speeches or writings?

I doubt there exists as much biographical data on those two pashtuns as the americans you compare them to. So these "prototypes" are mere fantasy vessels that are to be filled with your own ideals of what a pashtun ought to be.

Just sayin.

[Alchemist]

no

no hindus allowed.

[Ghundal]

Is being Pashtun a prerequisite to being a Muslim?

Is being an Indian a prerequisite to being a Hindu?

Are people shouting "Ahlan Wa Sahlan" in Syria or "Allah hu Akbar?"

[Alchemist]

Is being yellow a prerequisite to being a lemon?

Ghundal...

None of your arguments make any logical sense. Are you high brother? Kush? Crack? Meth?
What's your choice of drug? Seriously.

[Ghundal]

Is being yellow a prerequisite to being a lemon?

Ghundal...

None of your arguments make any logical sense. Are you high brother? Kush? Crack? Meth?
What's your choice of drug? Seriously.

My point is the question can be asked in regards to many topics.

Is being a Jew a prerequisite to being a Zionist?

Not really. There are some Christian Zionists?

So is being a Muslim a prerequisite to being a Pashtun?

No, there are some apostate Pashtuns.

The point is you can ask this question about almost anything

Is being Catholic a prerequisite to being Italian? (there are also other Italian Christians)

Is being Shiite a prerequisite to being Persian? (there are also Sunni Persians)


Nationalism is dead and long gone down the drain.

This is the reason people on this forum bring this redundant question up as pointed out in the OP

[Ghundal]

In the OP, it is mentioned that people bring this question up. Consider this their attempt to redefine Pashtun identity for others.

the people that bring this question up want to show that Pashtuns can be anything- christian, jew, hindu, and that will not take away their "Pashtun" identity. That Pashtuns can throw Islam away, and adopt secularism. That Pashtuns can take of their turbans and don baseball caps- absurd and pathetic desperate attempt to redefine Pashtuns, as if any Pashtun in Kandahar or Kunar or Waziristan are reading this and saying "Hey we can be YAhuddiiis or Hindussss Yeaaaaah" or "seculars....yeahhhhh"


Islam is a part of Afghan/Pashtun fabric, and no matter how hard someone tries, they will never be able to change that.

[Alchemist]

My point is the question can be asked in regards to many topics.

Is being a Jew a prerequisite to being a Zionist?

Not really. There are some Christian Zionists?

So is being a Muslim a prerequisite to being a Pashtun?

No, there are some apostate Pashtuns.

The point is you can ask this question about almost anything

Is being Catholic a prerequisite to being Italian? (there are also other Italian Christians)

Is being Shiite a prerequisite to being Persian? (there are also Sunni Persians)


Nationalism is dead and long gone down the drain.

This is the reason people on this forum bring this redundant question up as pointed out in the OP

When I say "logical sense" what I mean is that certain conditions are contingent and others are necessary. The question posed here is weather being a muslim contingent or necessary for being a pashtun.

Being a jew is a necessary condition for being a zionist. What is a Jew? By what the israelies consider "jewishness", it is a racial matter. Most if not all of these "Christain Zionists" would be too happy to prove to you that their bloodlines run up to the times of Joseph, peace be upon him, so that they are the people of Israel, except they have accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour. For example, George bush, **** Cheney and even Obama's pedigree runs as such that they can easily claim to be descendents of David, peace be upon him. This is not new knowledge, in fact, it goes to the times of dark ages, when the knights would lay claim to the Holy Land by birth right. Hence your rebuttal is out of your ignorance.

Here we have the case where "Zionism" is the category and race the factor of inclusion or exclusion. Since Zionism is a racial ideology, this is a valid test. And it could be argued that all forms of Nationalism is in one way or another racism.

Where as with Catholicism, Shiasm are different sects of a religion, and religion is not based on racism, or nationalism, therefore the test of race is not a valid one.

When I say you lack "logic" what I mean is that you mush everything up into one incoherent and confusing blurt and take no account of the essential differences that exist between the different words used.

So here the question is - is pashtun a form of nationalism? racism? And we have discussed this issue on the form many times to no avail - weather pashtuns are a pure and distinct race, and thus a race of people. So the question being posed, supposes that pashtunyat is a way of life!

Now following this line of reasoning you may contribute some more sensible comments and help your intellectual peers wrestle with this difficult problem. Rather than act all pompous and pretend you understand the question in order to invalidate the question on the supposition that being an apostate pashtun is similar to being a christain zionist. No logical sense.

[khushal]

To some your not pashtun if you dont practice pashtunwali, to others your not pashtun if you dont speak pashto.

They say che Pakhto na ka we, waye "che de khalk badal she we." --Those that dont implement the code of pakhto, they have changed and no longer regarded as pashtun.

But as far as Admins question is concerned about it coming up in threads, it is as Barackzai said, peoples perception is that they themselves are the true patriots and those that disagree with them are not and this is not unique to pashtuns but you could say that about any society on earth.

[khushal]

What do you know of AHmad Shah Abdali or Mir Wais?

Do you know their detailed biographies? Do you know their habits, their daily activities, what they liked to wear, eat, hunt, grow etc? Or how religious they were, what their political views were? Do you have records of their speeches or writings?

I doubt there exists as much biographical data on those two pashtuns as the americans you compare them to. So these "prototypes" are mere fantasy vessels that are to be filled with your own ideals of what a pashtun ought to be.

Just sayin.

I dont think you got the message becasue you are canadian and not familiar with America. When Americans argue about what a patriot is, they always compare themselves to the founding fathers of America. Barackzai was trying to portray that pashtuns compare themsleves to mirwais baba and ahmed shah baba. They united the pashtun tribes against a common enemy just like the American founding fathers united the colonies against the brits.

[IamDZJ]

i don't really care about people's ethical beliefs so no it's not important to me. any pashtun with a strong moral belief is a good human being and a good human being is a good pashtun for me.

[Ghundal]

When I say "logical sense" what I mean is that certain conditions are contingent and others are necessary. The question posed here is weather being a muslim contingent or necessary for being a pashtun.

Being a jew is a necessary condition for being a zionist. What is a Jew? By what the israelies consider "jewishness", it is a racial matter. Most if not all of these "Christain Zionists" would be too happy to prove to you that their bloodlines run up to the times of Joseph, peace be upon him, so that they are the people of Israel, except they have accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour. For example, George bush, **** Cheney and even Obama's pedigree runs as such that they can easily claim to be descendents of David, peace be upon him. This is not new knowledge, in fact, it goes to the times of dark ages, when the knights would lay claim to the Holy Land by birth right. Hence your rebuttal is out of your ignorance.

Here we have the case where "Zionism" is the category and race the factor of inclusion or exclusion. Since Zionism is a racial ideology, this is a valid test. And it could be argued that all forms of Nationalism is in one way or another racism.

Where as with Catholicism, Shiasm are different sects of a religion, and religion is not based on racism, or nationalism, therefore the test of race is not a valid one.

When I say you lack "logic" what I mean is that you mush everything up into one incoherent and confusing blurt and take no account of the essential differences that exist between the different words used.

So here the question is - is pashtun a form of nationalism? racism? And we have discussed this issue on the form many times to no avail - weather pashtuns are a pure and distinct race, and thus a race of people. So the question being posed, supposes that pashtunyat is a way of life!

Now following this line of reasoning you may contribute some more sensible comments and help your intellectual peers wrestle with this difficult problem. Rather than act all pompous and pretend you understand the question in order to invalidate the question on the supposition that being an apostate pashtun is similar to being a christain zionist. No logical sense.

Whenever a question like this is asked (reportedly according to the OP it has been here many times), one must ask the motives behind asking the question.

I think the reason this question is asked is to somehow say that Pashtuns can discard Islam, and adopt some alien ideology such as Hinduism or Christianity- essentially to go from Superior to Inferior, and that these ideologies are somehow compatible with Pashtun identity. Along the same lines, someone will pose whether Communism is compatible with Pashtun identity, and the answer is NO.

I am simply asking the reason why this question is repeatedly asked by a very small number of people.

The answer is simple: they wish to make others like them.

Obviously, being a Muslim is not a prerequisite to being a Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Yellow, Black, White, Pink, Indigo, etc, etc. I mean what a ridiculous question.

Its almost suggesting that being a Muslim comes after being a Pashtun?? Right- you can smell the false "fake" nationalism from a mile away.


The fact is though that most all Pashtuns are Muslims, not anything else.

[Karachi]

I think all people of all races need to be good human beings before they are muslim, christian, hindu, jew etc....

some times I see muslims acting so Islamic, yet they are not good human beings