Stoning to Death

[emkhan]

dont stress about my few mins, stress about the fairytale U 'RE dedicating ur entire life to.

Islam is not a fairytale but its a reality but blind people will not realize it.

[Shayesta]

For those of you who have become so Whitewashed and Farangified that you have lost your spine or sense of standards and feel horrified about penalizing adultery/fornication.

White-washed? Spineless? Westernised? What on earth are you on about, mate? These two people weren't married; They both were being forced into marriages against their wish with someone else, especially the girl who was oppressed into marrying the man her family had chosen for her. Instead of blaming the couple for in search of a better life, why hasn't any of you in this thread got the guts to blame their parents? If adultery is spoiling a society then so is forced marriages, why aren't you or any of the guys in this thread as critical of forced marriages as you are of adultery; Even though forced marriages ruin familiy lives on a much bigger and much harsher scale than adultery between two people? Why?

The penalizing of such behaviors is necessary to regulate the balance of society.

Penalizing them for what? For wanting to be happy? If the society wants to be so perfect anyway then why do they create situations where their children are out of control? Why do they create situations where people are fed of their lives? Instead of encouraging what is wrong in a society, why don't you and I point out the flaws in a society?

If this is not peacefully corrected, which in this case was to hand the involved parties to this punishment you see in the video,

Peacefully corrected? You think this, is peacefully corrected? Death of two innocent people who were fighting for their lives? Now these would have been more peaceful options; Letting them escape to wherever and break all ties. Or, instead of stoning them to death consider them dead and erase their memories. Or, just getting them married. Or, at least not forcing them into a marriage! Do any of these solutions sound more inhuman than stoning to death?

These two parties knew of the consequences of their actions before they ran away.

Even their parents should have known of the consequences of forcing their children into a marriage! This was literally the only option left for them; Fleeing. Why don't you criticize their parents for being so merciless instead of their children who were fed up of their parent's mercilessness?

In pashtunwali, the man committed a crime whether there was sexual relations or not.

The family whose honour you say was tarnished was set on tarnishing their children's life. Why isn't any punishment in Pukhtunwali set up for parents who abuse their children? Why isn't any punishment in Pukhtunwali set up for parents who tarnish their children's life (and expect their children to keep their 'honour')? Why is Pukhtunwali so insecure regarding youth? Why is there more ways discussed of how to oppress instead of how to solve problems peacefully (in the right meaning)?

And this type of sexual behavior has serious social consequences: abortions, unwanted babies, increase in divorce ratio and single parent families. Add to this the emotional suffering the people in general and the children in particular go through in such crises.

Sorry to interfere here but these things you named got to do with family upbringing, not lack of rules like 'Pukhtunwali'. Not entire West is as immoral as one another, UK though is very much in that league.

I have lived in Holland for over a decade and I have seen very less nations raise their children as well manner and as respecting as the Dutch. You won't find many religious ones out there but they know perfectly well how to behave, how to treat a relationship and how to lead successful lives. Even children with divorced parents were leading happy lives, while on other hand the country was full of Moroccans (Muslims) whose kids had no manners, no shame and no respect for anyone at all. This is all family values which could be set up here in West as well; Without support of Pukhtunwali.

[ScimitarXEdge]

White-washed? Spineless? Westernised? What on earth are you on about, mate? These two people weren't married; They both were being forced into marriages against their wish with someone else, especially the girl who was oppressed into marrying the man her family had chosen for her. Instead of blaming the couple for in search of a better life, why hasn't any of you in this thread got the guts to blame their parents? If adultery is spoiling a society then so is forced marriages, why aren't you or any of the guys in this thread as critical of forced marriages as you are of adultery; Even though forced marriages ruin familiy lives on a much bigger and much harsher scale than adultery between two people? Why?

none of this is ever an excuse for their behaviors; we're adults we either take what we're dealt with or we rise up in an appropriate way. if these people were forced they should have taken recourse against the system itself not indulge a heinous and perverse act of adultery.

forced marriages exist because of social necessity, to maintain order and organizational structure, the conditions of Afghanistan necessitate this. So this claim that it ruins family lives is absurd as it is because of principles of family that they exist in the first place. The forced marriages do not ruin society, they only ruin brainwashed romantic fantasies fabricated by movies and media to warp the minds of the masses. I'm not advocating forced marriages, but anthropologically and logically, they have a purpose. Adultery is never justified. If you want to change forced marriages pursue it in others ways. Change the conditions that necessitate forced marriages, not commit adultery; that is absurd.

And this is why it appears that such outrage stems from being farangified, white washed, (never said westernized); as it is something that derives from an unnatural conceptual paradigm from a culture that have a artificial society which is not connected with how nature operates and thus lack these awareness of how anthropology works.

Penalizing them for what? For wanting to be happy? If the society wants to be so perfect anyway then why do they create situations where their children are out of control? Why do they create situations where people are fed of their lives? Instead of encouraging what is wrong in a society, why don't you and I point out the flaws in a society?

This notion that they were "chasing happiness" is based on a very artificial conceptual understanding found predominantly within farangay society. Most Muslim or Islamic societies don't see it that way. They weren't chasing happiness, just the delusions in their mind. This is simply a case where they were wanting their own self destruction; they brought it upon themselves. Society didn't create such conditions but these individuals lacked their own self respect and were steered and manipulated from images and hallucinations created by false depictions from outside of their society(perhaps movies or some other media). We as humans have a gift over other animals we have impulses but we're not ruled by impulses, we can regulate and control our desires. They should have controlled theirs.

Peacefully corrected? You think this, is peacefully corrected? Death of two innocent people who were fighting for their lives? Now these would have been more peaceful options; Letting them escape to wherever and break all ties. Or, instead of stoning them to death consider them dead and erase their memories. Or, just getting them married. Or, at least not forcing them into a marriage! Do any of these solutions sound more inhuman than stoning to death?

Sociey needs to regulate itself and in some cases to maintain the Greater Balance of Life; some must die when they chose to stray from the crucial normative values and practices of society. This is an athropological understanding of how we work.

Even their parents should have known of the consequences of forcing their children into a marriage! This was literally the only option left for them; Fleeing. Why don't you criticize their parents for being so merciless instead of their children who were fed up of their parent's mercilessness?

This isn't a consequence of forcing children into marriage; many people have had their marriages decided by their families and have never indulged in adultery. We can even argue that most people. This is the consequences of the spoiled brat mentality, that we feel we're automatically entitled to anything merely because we have the capacity to pursue it. This is a psychology, that comes from brainwashing of an unnatural culture such as Bollywood, or Farangyan conceptual paradigms

The family whose honour you say was tarnished was set on tarnishing their children's life. Why isn't any punishment in Pukhtunwali set up for parents who abuse their children? Why isn't any punishment in Pukhtunwali set up for parents who tarnish their children's life (and expect their children to keep their 'honour')? Why is Pukhtunwali so insecure regarding youth? Why is there more ways discussed of how to oppress instead of how to solve problems peacefully (in the right meaning)?

I'm no advocate of Pakhtunwali, but I understand it and I would take Pakhtunwali than a society that accepts and protects adultery. I agree with you in many ways, forced marriages are often harsh and there needs to be other solutions to keep social equilibrium so that other aspects of human character can be taken care of. But this is never an excuse for adultery, never ever. If we cannot act out our desires the right way, we should not act them out. That is the responsibility of being Human. Pakhtunwali/Pashtunwali is not insecure of anything; this idea that the rules and order implicates insecurity is based on the anxieties of a very immature and irrational conceptual paradigm, which I'm sorry to say is prominent amongst farangyan. Eastern societies view things that way.
So as it stands if you want to go adultery, face the consequences.

Ideally it would be appropriate to grant severances in cases of forced marriages. However, it has to be determined that the intention of the individuals was for marriage and not merely carrying on a lewd relationship. Either way the penalty for adultery is a must.

Don't blame the parents, blame all those people who corrupted these children and made them feel antsy and anxious because of not attaining some faricial delusion of romance.

Sorry to interfere here but these things you named got to do with family upbringing, not lack of rules like 'Pukhtunwali'. Not entire West is as immoral as one another, UK though is very much in that league.

Sorry to interfere but this lack of social upbringing is directly the result of the moral values or lack of moral values prominent in the society. The Dutch have open brothels and promote prostitution as a NORM of society. Just because they have regulations in some phony attempt at implementing damage control for their social immorality. It doesn't actually change or curtail immorality, but they made immorality so normal and acceptable it is no longer seen as immoral.

[Shayesta]

Let me start of with telling you that nearly everything you argued could be used back as an argument against you. And that also in at least as much sense, so please don't get annoyed by my post here:

none of this is ever an excuse for their behaviors; we're adults we either take what we're dealt with or we rise up in an appropriate way.

What is an excuse for forced marriages? We are adults indeed and if we can deal with adultery then why not with forced marriages? Hypocrisy?

if these people were forced they should have taken recourse against the system itself not indulge a heinous and perverse act of adultery.

Like what? How could they have prevented forced marriages rather than handing themselves over to the tribal elders who as a result (obviously) will order their death? Maybe, fleeing?

forced marriages exist because of social necessity, to maintain order and organizational structure,

Same could be said about adultery; Adultery exists because of social needs/wants/behaviour (whatever you want to call it) and their excuse could very well be as valid/invalid (depending on what you yourself think of your arguments) as yours.

The forced marriages do not ruin society, they only ruin brainwashed romantic fantasies fabricated by movies and media to warp the minds of the masses.

Really? So those thousands of women in Herat who burned themselves alive after being forced into a marriage were 'brainwashed romantic fanatics'? Those thousands of women of Mazar who took refuge at Women Right Organisations after fleeing an forced and abusive marriage were 'brainwashed romantic fanatics'? Those thousands of women of Kabul who got out of an oppressive marriage after Taliban's fall were 'brainwashed romantic fanatics'? By the way, where does such a huge group of poor Afghans (and that also women) get a luxury like a TV from? Are you even listening to yourself? At all?

Adultery is never justified. If you want to change forced marriages pursue it in others ways. Change the conditions that necessitate forced marriages, not commit adultery

Again, same could be said about adultery; 'I am not advocating adultery but they have a purpose, forced marriage is never justified. If you want to stop adultery pursue it in other ways, change the conditions that creates adultery, not committing crimes like forcing a marriage.' You see, depending on ones point of view and mentality, pretty much everything you say could even be used against your own arguments. Whether you agree with it or not is another point altogether.

This notion that they were "chasing happiness" is based on a very artificial conceptual understanding found predominantly within farangay society. Most Muslim or Islamic societies don't see it that way.

So in your society, happiness doesn't exists? It is just a illusion of mind? Wasn't Mohammad Sallahu Alaihe Wasalam's wedding with his first wife Bibi Khadija described as 'a very happy' one? Or was that just their 'artificial' thinking? Arabs aren't the only Muslims in the world, if they are immune to the word 'happiness' then spare the horror of denying such an obvious fact for other Muslims.

This is simply a case where they were wanting their own self destruction; they brought it upon themselves. Society didn't create such conditions but these individuals lacked their own self respect and were steered and manipulated from images and hallucinations created by false depictions from outside of their society.

Where is this very same society when forced marriages takes place? Where is this very same society when a 10 year old girls are married off to 50 year old men? Where is this very same society when revenges become endless amongst Pukhtoons?; Where is this society to stop all these crimes which hold much more harm to an entire society than adultery between two people who want to get married? Where are they when they are supposed to be there? Where?

We as humans have a gift over other animals we have impulses but we're not ruled by impulses, we can regulate and control our desires. They should have controlled theirs.

But they didn't. They got a heart that beats to a different speed than yours, they got feelings within them flowing otherwise than yours, they got thinking going on which differs from yours. Now are you gonna stone them to death for being different to you? How about a Westerner coming up to you and stones you to death for not accepting adultery?

Society needs to regulate itself and in some cases to maintain the Greater Balance of Life; some must die when they chose to stray from the crucial normative values and practices of society.

I thought we were human-beings, then why do we work like animals? Why would you rather kill someone for going against his society instead of working on the flaws of a society? Why wouldn't you rather let go of someone who disowns your society instead of forcing him to live and die in a society he doesn't want to be a part of? Your point is to just rid of such 'Ferangian diseases', why not get rid of it by deporting him from your area?

This isn't a consequence of forcing children into marriage; many people have had their marriages decided by their families and have never indulged in adultery.

It's one thing to allow your parents to decide your future and it's another when your parents tell you what they have decided for you. The point you are ignoring here is that the punishment of adultery was only decided after them two came back after fleeing because these so-called men of honour a.k.a. Pukhtunwali elders promised them safety. There was no proof that adultery was committed before they fled and nor was that their reason to elope, their reason was to avoid their arranged marriages. If tribal elders cannot do justice to the tribal code they themselves have set up, then what do you expect any commitment from those don't care about those so-called 'codes of honour'?

I'm no advocate of Pakhtunwali, but I understand it and I would take Pakhtunwali than a society that accepts and protects adultery.

Then why do you live here? Don't tell me because of Western presence in Afghanistan? How can you see people in front of your eyes dating? Knowing they commit adultery? Swapping partners? Doesn't it make you feel like stoning them to death? If you can see such behaviour in a place you live then why not in a place you never been to in your life? If choices of individuals here don't bother you then why do individuals back in Afghanistan irritate you?

If we cannot act out our desires the right way, we should not act them out.

And here, again, same could be said about forced marriages; If adultery is considered a crime then so should be forcing marriages, if adultery is being punished then so should forced marriages. It's funny how you instantly show support for punishment for adultery while fail to find even one punishment for forced marriages.

However, it has to be determined that the intention of the individuals was for marriage and not merely carrying on a lewd relationship.

That was exactly the reason in this case! They were promised 'safety' (per your 'Pukhtunwali') and their 'safety' was their death! This is just one of the stories which happened in North of the country, this is nothing compared to what has happened to women in Southern parts who have fled their homes. And still happens in many Afghan areas.

Sorry to interfere but this lack of social upbringing is directly the result of the moral values or lack of moral values prominent in the society.

What is a valuable society anyway? Pukhtunwali? If these Western countries would have been so valueless and all about adultery, we wouldn't have one-mind-sets likes yourself here. So very clearly, it's not the West lacking values and morals; It's the people who don't know how to lead their lives.

The Dutch have open brothels and promote prostitution as a NORM of society.

There you are again. A small area of Amsterdam is the most open place (in a very bad way) you will ever find, but that 1000% isn't the case in rest of Holland. People see Bachabazi as a norm of society in Afghanistan, sex-change operations as a norm of society in Iran, buying and selling women as a norm of society of the Arabs; How much do you agree with these? If not at all then ditch your view of 'prostitution being a Dutch norm', if you agree completely then I got no idea what this entire debate is all about?

[Zahed]

Shayestei who 're u wastin' ur time on 'n why?? they dont understand language of humanity nor does Allah allow them to. even u keep bringing in Pashtunwali into this while u know damn well this problem persists in entire mid east 'n other Muslim nations. Pashtunwali died out in many places but joke of a fairytale called Islam never 'll. all 'cuz some men 're promise virgins 'n some women jannat. what a joke of a story.. ur a intelligent woman atleast u dont fall for it

[faye]

anthropologically, forced marriages have not been a necessity. many societies have existed without them.

[khushal]

Peacefully corrected? You think this, is peacefully corrected? Death of two innocent people who were fighting for their lives? Now these would have been more peaceful options; Letting them escape to wherever and break all ties. Or, instead of stoning them to death consider them dead and erase their memories. Or, just getting them married. Or, at least not forcing them into a marriage! Do any of these solutions sound more inhuman than stoning to death?

I am not a defender of every aspect of Pashtunwali and there are many aspects of Pashtunwali that contradicts with Islam. Dont attack me, I was merely explaining the reasoning behind what happened in the video because most of you look at it from a western point of view. Things are not as hunky dory or sinister in Pashtunland as it is in the West where people's main problem is deciding what to wear to the nightclub for a shot at a one night stand.
You have to understand that morality is viewed differently in each society. Like Scimitar said that the Dutch views prostitution, drugs, alcohol, adultery, etc not as sin or immoral but more like entertainment because it serves their economy. In pahtunland this is viewed as immoral and people are obligated to give their life to protect this view whether they want to or not because pashtunwali rules this society. Every aspect of the pahtuns life is ruled by pashtunwali whether the person agrees with it or not. I know many pashtuns that do not agree with it but they will abide by it.

Even their parents should have known of the consequences of forcing their children into a marriage! This was literally the only option left for them; Fleeing. Why don't you criticize their parents for being so merciless instead of their children who were fed up of their parent's mercilessness?

You have to reread my post. The parents have no control here. Pashtunwali rules here whether the parents agree with it or not. They have two options. Either kill these two individuals or they have to start a blood feud that would claim countless innocent lives that had nothing to do with this act.
You could come in as supergirl(ta tah ta tah taaaa) and try to reason with them but they would tell you that they hate this culture but they have no choice and believe me when I tell you this, they are more hurt than you are that their loved ones are being stoned and would do anything to stop it but they have no choice. Its either the whole family dies or these two individuals die.

The family whose honour you say was tarnished was set on tarnishing their children's life. Why isn't any punishment in Pukhtunwali set up for parents who abuse their children? Why isn't any punishment in Pukhtunwali set up for parents who tarnish their children's life (and expect their children to keep their 'honour')? Why is Pukhtunwali so insecure regarding youth? Why is there more ways discussed of how to oppress instead of how to solve problems peacefully (in the right meaning)?

I did not say anyone's honor is tarnished. reread my post. It is pashtunwali that decides whose honor is tarnished. People have no choice here, Pashtunwali decides the moral values and people are obligated to follow it. If they do not follow it, they are shunned from society as a baighrat, an immoral person, a banamus, one with no dignity, it is better to be dead than be in that category if you want to continue to live in pashtunland. Pashtunwai is the punisher as well as the protector. Osama was protected by pashtunwali from the whole world. America, the Soviets, the British and the others were all punished by Pashtunwali so you have to understand that your Supergirl powers will have no effect on it. Everywhere the Soviets went, they succumbed everyone that were way more sophisticated and more resourceful than the Pashtuns. The pashtuns had nothing but pashtunwali and the Soviets could not submit them. If the Soviets and the Americans had no choice, what makes you think those parents had a choice.

[khushal]

Shayestei who 're u wastin' ur time on 'n why?? they dont understand language of humanity nor does Allah allow them to. even u keep bringing in Pashtunwali into this while u know damn well this problem persists in entire mid east 'n other Muslim nations. Pashtunwali died out in many places but joke of a fairytale called Islam never 'll. all 'cuz some men 're promise virgins 'n some women jannat. what a joke of a story.. ur a intelligent woman atleast u dont fall for it

You are wrong. Pashtunwali is neither dead or dying. Go to any Pashtun village in KP or Afghanistan and ask any male member in the village if you could take their daughter out for a date. If your throat is not sliced and just came out with a beating, consider yourself lucky.

[Shayesta]

even u keep bringing in Pashtunwali into this while u know damn well this problem persists in entire mid east 'n other Muslim nations.

Allah Subha'na Wa Tallah'a didn't tell them to take control over innocent lives, grow up please. The problem is that these people aren't even following Islam. If I am not mistaken then in Islam it's mentioned that if a girl is married off against her wish then it's not considered a 'Nikah', so you can imagine how much of a big sin their families are committing by marrying them off in name of Islam while even Islam disowns a force as a marriage.

I was merely explaining the reasoning behind what happened in the video because most of you look at it from a western point of view.

Western view as in how? Western view as in we disagree that two people received a punishment which isn't even mentioned in the Quran-e-Sharif for their circumstance? It's not us taking a 'Western view', it's you (a 'supposedly' Muslim) who in this case prefers Pukhtunwali over Islam/justice.

Things are not as hunky dory or sinister in Pashtunland as it is in the West where people's main problem is deciding what to wear to the nightclub for a shot at a one night stand.

Nor is West deciding whom to stone to death today and whom to stone to death tomorrow. Or whom to force in a marriage today and whom to force in a marriage tomorrow. Or whom to oppress today and whom to oppress tomorrow. People in West want to study well, get a good job, make a living, make a career, etcetera. Things like going out and partying is a part of individuals' lives who choose this path and others who don't. Unlike Pukhtunwali, Western lifestyle (whatever that is) isn't being forced upon people.

You have to understand that morality is viewed differently in each society.

And you have to understand that if something in a society is wrong then it's just wrong. Even Islam encourages us to fight flaws in a society, not to encourage it in the name of 'society'. Just like how Muslims for example in some parts of India succeeded to replace Islam with some very distasteful traditions in Hinduism, same-wise, people like you and me can replace humanity with distasteful traditions in Pukhtunwali. 'We can't do anything about it' isn't any excuse, nor does Islam accept this as an excuse.

Like Scimitar said that the Dutch views prostitution, drugs, alcohol, adultery, etc not as sin or immoral but more like entertainment because it serves their economy.

Ehh, adultery between two people is a economical profit? Anyway. Prostitution, drugs and alcohol are a part of many, many Muslim countries as well since many, many centuries. There are places where prostitution, alcohol and etcetera happen very openly in Islamic countries, why doesn't anyone gather the guts to punish these people committing these acts so openly? And within a second they figured out that two individuals (in private) committed adultery?

The parents have no control here. Pashtunwali rules here whether the parents agree with it or not.

Mate, this was their parents' decision! It's the Pukhtoons who follow Pukhtunwali and it's the Pukhtoons who can stop the practices they find inhuman; We make a society, society doesn't make us!

It is pashtunwali that decides whose honor is tarnished. People have no choice here, Pashtunwali decides the moral values and people are obligated to follow it.

People aren't 'forced' to follow anything, not even Islam. Even Islam tells you to either follow the Holy Book, or either choose your own path and clarify your actions in 'Akherat'. This is, once again, not an excuse.

If they do not follow it, they are shunned from society as a baighrat, an immoral person, a banamus, one with no dignity, it is better to be dead than be in that category if you want to continue to live in pashtunland.

And what if someone would want to be called a 'beghairat', 'immoral', 'benamus' and 'dignity-less' rather than die? Does he still deserve death as a punishment? Does Islam say such a person deserves a death-penalty?

Osama was protected by pashtunwali from the whole world. America, the Soviets, the British and the others were all punished by Pashtunwali.

Yes, the very same Osama who didn't give two cents about those hundreds of thousands of Muslims who lost their lives because of him. And how were the British, Americans and Russians punished by 'Pukhtunwali'? Did Pukhtunwali save Pakhtunkhwa from being sold? Did Pukhtunwali save Afghanistan from being destroyed by Mujahideen-Communist war? Is Pukhtunwali saving Afghanistan from being occupied by over forty countries?

If the Soviets and the Americans had no choice, what makes you think those parents had a choice.

It weren't Russians or Americans who created Pukhtunwali, it's not them following Pukhtunwali and nor them wanting to change Pukhtunwali. Just like how Pukhtoons didn't let foreigners force Westernisation on Pukhtoons (which never happened in first place), same-wise opposer of Pukhtunwali shouldn't let Pukhtunwali be forced on each individual just because he was meant to be born in such a society.

[unknownprince]

Shayesta, do you not like Pashtunwali? What about Islam? Pashtunwali is our way, and no one can do anything about it.

In Islam, adulterers are stoned to death. Do you agree with that? (I know this case here is not about adulterers). Yes or no.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Let me start of with telling you that nearly everything you argued could be used back as an argument against you. And that also in at least as much sense, so please don't get annoyed by my post here:

"could be"

well then do it, no point in saying could bes when they can't be done.

What is an excuse for forced marriages? We are adults indeed and if we can deal with adultery then why not with forced marriages? Hypocrisy?

because forced marriages have am anthropological social organizational purpose; adultery doesn't.

Like what? How could they have prevented forced marriages rather than handing themselves over to the tribal elders who as a result (obviously) will order their death? Maybe, fleeing?

I never said prevented, I said work against them in other ways. Addressing the issue in other manners, jirga, analysis, logical debate.

Same could be said about adultery; Adultery exists because of social needs/wants/behaviour (whatever you want to call it) and their excuse could very well be as valid/invalid (depending on what you yourself think of your arguments) as yours.

Actually no it can't be said; because adultery breaks family structure and regulates reproductive cycles and opportunities outside of it's natural framework.

You can't merely counter arguing by flipping around the details without understanding the variables. Marriage exists to regulate reproductive behavior and sexuality, adultery is contradiction to regulation; hence is disruptive. Your argument is the farangay paradigm.

Really? So those thousands of women in Herat who burned themselves alive after being forced into a marriage were 'brainwashed romantic fanatics'?

Yes, and are completely stupid. Burning yourself alive for something that doesn't equate to burning in any way shape or form. That's despicable they brought their pain on themselves. Change how you view your world and your world will be more bearable.

Those thousands of women of Mazar who took refuge at Women Right Organisations after fleeing an forced and abusive marriage were 'brainwashed romantic fanatics'?

I don't know the details; but none of these women committed adultery did they? You're on a tangent; and using such tangential arguments defeat your debate about adultery.

Those thousands of women of Kabul who got out of an oppressive marriage after Taliban's fall were 'brainwashed romantic fanatics'?

Again did they perform adultery? If no; then you're only weakening your own argument.

Use logic here, not emotional appeals.

By the way, where does such a huge group of poor Afghans (and that also women) get a luxury like a TV from? Are you even listening to yourself? At all?

Public cinema, stories, youth talk. hear-say? It comes through the grapevine.

Again, same could be said about adultery; 'I am not advocating adultery but they have a purpose, forced marriage is never justified. If you want to stop adultery pursue it in other ways, change the conditions that creates adultery, not committing crimes like forcing a marriage.' You see, depending on ones point of view and mentality, pretty much everything you say could even be used against your own arguments. Whether you agree with it or not is another point altogether.

But the problem is merely reversing the order of something doesn't make the converse true

This is a Logical Fallacy on your part.

Here's a little tutorial about how Logical Arguments work; In Logic a conditional Statement can have a Truth value and be valid, b the converse does not equal the conditional in truth value. It can very well be false and invalid.

So no I don't see it; what I do see is you have a poor grasp of how logic works.

It's a shame you seem to be someone who condemns Mullahs for their lack of education and yet you yourself are not using the knowledge of educated people.

So in your society, happiness doesn't exists? It is just a illusion of mind? Wasn't Mohammad Sallahu Alaihe Wasalam's wedding with his first wife Bibi Khadija described as 'a very happy' one? Or was that just their 'artificial' thinking? Arabs aren't the only Muslims in the world, if they are immune to the word 'happiness' then spare the horror of denying such an obvious fact for other Muslims.

Well look at it evolutionarily; whatever we understand as "happy" are just conditions which are conducive to our faculties and help to fulfill their functions and purpose; the outward sensation we associate with happiness

Where is this very same society when forced marriages takes place? Where is this very same society when a 10 year old girls are married off to 50 year old men? Where is this very same society when revenges become endless amongst Pukhtoons?; Where is this society to stop all these crimes which hold much more harm to an entire society than adultery between two people who want to get married? Where are they when they are supposed to be there? Where?

But they didn't. They got a heart that beats to a different speed than yours, they got feelings within them flowing otherwise than yours, they got thinking going on which differs from yours. Now are you gonna stone them to death for being different to you? How about a Westerner coming up to you and stones you to death for not accepting adultery?

And thus they are responsible for their crimes and chose to do the wrong thing and thus they become reprehensible for their choices.

I thought we were human-beings, then why do we work like animals? Why would you rather kill someone for going against his society instead of working on the flaws of a society? Why wouldn't you rather let go of someone who disowns your society instead of forcing him to live and die in a society he doesn't want to be a part of? Your point is to just rid of such 'Ferangian diseases', why not get rid of it by deporting him from your area?

Animals kill out of instinct, humans kill for purpose, at least most of the time

It's one thing to allow your parents to decide your future and it's another when your parents tell you what they have decided for you. The point you are ignoring here is that the punishment of adultery was only decided after them two came back after fleeing because these so-called men of honour a.k.a. Pukhtunwali elders promised them safety. There was no proof that adultery was committed before they fled and nor was that their reason to elope, their reason was to avoid their arranged marriages. If tribal elders cannot do justice to the tribal code they themselves have set up, then what do you expect any commitment from those don't care about those so-called 'codes of honour'?

Well, technically, in Islamic Law unmarried persons are not deemed adulterers, but fornicators, and the punishment for fornication is much lighter than adulterry, Fornication just involves lashing.

You're drawing lines the sand as far as I'm concerned. People who "allow" their parents to regulate their affairs do so because they are taught the authority of their parents; and hence parental authority takes precedence here. Likewise those who rebel against parental authority similarly violate their parents right of authority.

Now like I said I'm not advocating forced marriages I however am saying the comparison of forced marriages with adultery is a fallacious one. Personally I believe the ideal situation is mutual negotiations. However, the rough environment of Afghanistan may necessitate forced marriages. You don't need adultery to accomplish any of this.

The Tribal elders may have given them refuge but they realized they were protecting immorality and by doing so would be sowing dischord in society that is already rife with dischord. They didn't violate Pashtunwali but realized this served the greater good.

Then why do you live here? Don't tell me because of Western presence in Afghanistan? How can you see people in front of your eyes dating? Knowing they commit adultery? Swapping partners? Doesn't it make you feel like stoning them to death? If you can see such behaviour in a place you live then why not in a place you never been to in your life? If choices of individuals here don't bother you then why do individuals back in Afghanistan irritate you?

because their Imperialism has destabilized our planet and have inhibited the Natural way of life and habitat of our environments, I hope that I can learn enough about how this society operates and how to uproot it's impact on our planet; then hopefully we can have everything return back to our normative standards again.

And here, again, same could be said about forced marriages; If adultery is considered a crime then so should be forcing marriages, if adultery is being punished then so should forced marriages. It's funny how you instantly show support for punishment for adultery while fail to find even one punishment for forced marriages.

No forced marriages shouldn't be deemed a crime on the same level as adultery,

We're debating punishment for adultery; not forced marriages, forced marriages does not cause adutery; the proof being nost forced marriages aren't adulterers.

There's an anthropological purpose for forced marriages; maintaining social sexual order. adultery is sexual disorder. Hence forced marriages at least has a legitimate basis, albeit misguided application. But nothing in adultery has that same function.

And No merely reversing what I'm saying in favor of adultery won't make the statements equally true.

That was exactly the reason in this case! They were promised 'safety' (per your 'Pukhtunwali') and their 'safety' was their death! This is just one of the stories which happened in North of the country, this is nothing compared to what has happened to women in Southern parts who have fled their homes. And still happens in many Afghan areas.

Pakhtunwali is complex (I'm no advocate of Pakhtunwali, I'm an advocate of Shari'ah Law). Its dynamics are complex. Things are measured by weight of priority. Protecting adulterers may have created war between tribes, thereby to evade this war they saw it better to allow these adulterers to be punished. In my opinion, they made a wise decision. Better some *****s killed than Morally Upright Pashtuns.

What is a valuable society anyway? Pukhtunwali? If these Western countries would have been so valueless and all about adultery, we wouldn't have one-mind-sets likes yourself here. So very clearly, it's not the West lacking values and morals; It's the people who don't know how to lead their lives.

That's the interesting thing; If I were to administer our principles here I would be jailed or potentially jailed. However people here administer adultery and practice it with absolutely no legal recourse against them. It's legal for them to do such a thing and even protected under their respective constitutions. So yes it is these Degenerate Societies, who lack values and morals. My presence here is not due to the virtue of the society but because of circumstance.

There you are again. A small area of Amsterdam is the most open place (in a very bad way) you will ever find, but that 1000% isn't the case in rest of Holland. People see Bachabazi as a norm of society in Afghanistan, sex-change operations as a norm of society in Iran, buying and selling women as a norm of society of the Arabs; How much do you agree with these? If not at all then ditch your view of 'prostitution being a Dutch norm', if you agree completely then I got no idea what this entire debate is all about?

Yes and I believe Bacha Bazi should be persecuted on the same level; as this too is unnatural and unhealthy. But just because bacha bazi happens doesn't mean we should just let any immorality happen. I don't know if sex change operations are the "norm" of Iran. they may happen there but they're not given any special commercial license, it is a misguided medical treatment,But certainly NOT the norm. Buying and selling women is not a norm of Arab society, that's just absurd, and I'm not saying that out of defensiveness, it is simply a patent lie. If you mean there's exchange of walwar? That's not the same as sale of women by any stretch of the word. Prostitution is a norm of Dutch society, they have Laws to Protect and even commercialize it. That's all evidence of it being a norm.

[unknownprince]

I read this thread, and I see a bunch of crap being propagated against Pashtuns. It is the usual crap which comes from seculars. Now they are bold, and say they just hate pashtunwali.

Well, Pashtunwali is the way, and thats it. If you have a problem with it, become something else.

Pashtuns protect their women from all harm.

Stop this propaganda here. In especially the rural Pashtun areas, the woman is protected always. This is pashtunwali.

I read this thread, and it sounds like the same propaganda that that Qizilbash trash Hosseini propagates in his Kite Runner crap.

It is the seculars/ Northern Alliance who are known for rape. It is Dostum and Ahmad Shaw Masoods men who were rapists, and targeted women.

[faye]

there is 'arranged ' marriages and 'forced' marriages. arranged marriages have been done for centuries, why do you say that 'forced' marriages are an anthropological necessity scimitar? do you think people would not choose to marry in conventional societies, they have to be forced?
you also have to remember, as you talk as though you know history, that women have been oppressed, for centuries. women certainly need to be able to choose who they want to procreate with, unless, of course, you consider them less than animals. even animals can make that choice, in most instances.

[ScimitarXEdge]

yes ofcourse most of our actions 're our personal choices 'n the fact u just admitted it's people who make their own choices proves that we 're slaves of our own decisions, not Allah's. diff here between ur 'n my point of view is that u believe in oppressing people's choices which cause u no harm, 'n I believe in live 'n let alive view. if people 're losing their standards or morals then they 're criminals of God not of ur so called society. it's upto God to decide his outcome not ur so called society. if adultery is a crime then the criminal's family can easily disown him, throw him out of their so called society, call him a kaafir, but who the hell 're they to snatch his right to live?? if God isnt taking that right from him then who the hell 're u to? at the end he 'll go to his own grave 'n answer God of his sins up there, 'n u 'll go to ur own grave answering ur own sins. 'n if these adults 're responsible for their actions then its them who 'll answer their deeds, what 're u so worried about? they 're not forcing u to follow their path, then why do u force them to accept UR corrupt rules?? 'n about ur so called Pashtunwali, I 've seen the outcome of following such a barbaric tradition. it has happened several times that a woman was forced into a marriage where she'd no choice but to elope 'n when she found her happiness with someone else she was promised "SAFETY" in her own village according to the so called Pashtunwali 'n Pashtoon elders, but all such women ever got was not only their own death but also death of their husbands and children infront of their eyes. thats ur Pashtunwali for u. whats btw up with farangyan this farangyan that?? arent Arabs farangyan? wasnt their culture brought to Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Tajikistan 'n which Asian country not?? if humanity is compared to farangi brainwash then thank God I'm a farangi brainwash! instead of setting on human laws to protect people's right, instead of creating a family friendly atmosphere 'n a educated background, only thing Muslims can think of is how to oppress a dark hole in their society, how to emotionally manipulate people who DO NOT WANT TO be part of the society, 'n finally finish off anyone 'n everyone who wants a change in their society in name of farangi brainwash. 'n when u run out of excuses u take support of abortions, divorces 'n broken families of western society even tho at the state AFG is in today u wouldnt leave this very same west in even a century time for AFG. how mature!

my admission of personal choices doesn't mean Our Personal Choices doesn't have Laws or Rules governing over them. We are subject to a Higher Law, because this Higher Law is the foundation by which we can make choices at all. Whether you call this Law Allah or Nature or Evolution, it doesn't matter to me. I don't care if you believe in God or don't; to me this is an irrelevant point. What I care about is Society's Order and how someone's actions keep social equilbrium and the function and purpose of human behavior in their proper order.

Someone being responsible for their own actions is EXACTLY WHY we are required to take action against them for making Immoral or Corrupt choices; because it means that they wilfully chose to do evil. This is consequence of God's Laws; if we allow people to do evil we're allowing evil to pollute our environment and therefore we have to stop them to maintain the Order of Human Life. Someones' actions affects Our lives here on Earth, so why would we wait for them to answer their crimes in Heaven or Hell? what if Heaven doesn't exist? or if God doesn't exist? Then they can get away with whatever they want on Earth and ruin the fabric of society? We cannot have that. God holds us responsible for maintaining the rules and order of society on Earth, he will deal with the ultimate fate of their choices in Qiyammah.

The Pashtun elders made the wise decision; adultery creates corruption in society; and by protecting them they would be allowing corruption to spread; which totally defeats the point of protecting them. Plus it would create badal between the clans. Pashtunwali has certain purposes, i.e. regulate society and it works to serve that purpose. I don't agree with all of it, but it is better to have Pashtunwali and harsh rules than free reign for adultery or fornication.

Arabs are not Farangyan and Arabs did not impose their culture and rules on anyone. When Islam was promoted by Muhammad(saw); the first job was to Correct the Arab society and behaviors; so that shows Islam is not the Arabic culture but something that changed Arab society. This is also disproves your idea that God leaving people responsibles for their actions implies that not taking actions to stop immorality. Islam spread from there because it's principles were in balance with how human attributes function with nature. So it would not matter if first Muslims were Chinese, Indians or even Pashtuns; the principles of Islam are apart of the Universal Order. and that is what makes Islam valid; and why Islam is not farangyan or arabiyan but Islam is nature. and Nature applies to everyone. What makes the Arabs more our allies and Farangyan our enemies is that the Arabs never tried to disturb or destroy our Environment and divert our Natural relationships with our surroundings and alter the natural functioning with our Environment. the Farangyan have.

And hence this is what makes your argument an advocation of human rights or freedom but actually a violation of both. What makes your argument Farangyan brainwashing is that You're disguising corruption and injustice by falsely portraying them as human rights. And in that this contradicts Family friendly environment and education because fallacy creates injustice and it spreads ignorance by misguiding people towards falsehood. There's no greater example of an attempt of Emotional Manipulation then exploiting Human Rights as a scapegoat and disguise to legitimize Immorality. These are not human rights but the destruction of justice.

What we're doing in Farangay society is directly a consequence of Farangyan disturbing the functioning of our society; it has nothing to do with any merit or virtue of their society but distorted balances. when we can learn how to counter act their activities; then we can make sure their culture never adverse affects anyone else ever again.

[ScimitarXEdge]

there is 'arranged ' marriages and 'forced' marriages. arranged marriages have been done for centuries, why do you say that 'forced' marriages are an anthropological necessity scimitar? do you think people would not choose to marry in conventional societies, they have to be forced?
you also have to remember, as you talk as though you know history, that women have been oppressed, for centuries. women certainly need to be able to choose who they want to procreate with, unless, of course, you consider them less than animals. even animals can make that choice, in most instances.

Sometimes people make irrational choices; and those choices which serve no real purpose other than deluded emotions have to be interceded. It would be nice if people made the right choices but when they make the wrong ones , it's good that society puts their foot down to set them on the right course.

Animals don't need such a system, they operate what functions for them best in most instances. But because human emotions can be diverted or distorted in a way that conflicts with the natural equilibrium of their species; that requires something to redirect that equilibrium back to where it should be.

hence forced marriages especially in Afghanistan's case become a necessity.