Stoning to Death

[Zahed]

Lol @ the fanatics in this thread
Shayesta jana mor shidey desa

what does this line mean??

[khushal]

Western view as in how? Western view as in we disagree that two people received a punishment which isn't even mentioned in the Quran-e-Sharif for their circumstance? It's not us taking a 'Western view', it's you (a 'supposedly' Muslim) who in this case prefers Pukhtunwali over Islam/justice.

I never said I prefer Pashtunwali over Islam. Islam trumps everything. Like I keep repeating myself, I am merely explaining behind the reasoning of the parents to choose this option over the second one. If I explain to you hindu beliefs, it does not mean I prefer hinduism.

Nor is West deciding whom to stone to death today and whom to stone to death tomorrow. Or whom to force in a marriage today and whom to force in a marriage tomorrow. Or whom to oppress today and whom to oppress tomorrow. People in West want to study well, get a good job, make a living, make a career, etcetera. Things like going out and partying is a part of individuals' lives who choose this path and others who don't. Unlike Pukhtunwali, Western lifestyle (whatever that is) isn't being forced upon people.

Western/secular society is "I got no shame."
In western societies, the governments are strong and it is they who decide what should be promoted and protected. Whatever helps the economy is promoted and protected. When slavery was good for the economy, it was protected under the law. When it was bad for the economy it was outlawed. In secular societies it is not about right or wrong, it is about what is right or wrong for the economy. It is a system with no compassion for humanity or nature that is self destructive.

And you have to understand that if something in a society is wrong then it's just wrong. Even Islam encourages us to fight flaws in a society, not to encourage it in the name of 'society'. Just like how Muslims for example in some parts of India succeeded to replace Islam with some very distasteful traditions in Hinduism, same-wise, people like you and me can replace humanity with distasteful traditions in Pukhtunwali. 'We can't do anything about it' isn't any excuse, nor does Islam accept this as an excuse.

True. you must change the society first though. But what you have here is two individuals that knowingly committed a crime in the society they live in that jeopardized the lives of their innocent relatives. Was their "love," "infatuation" or "lust" for each other more important than the lives of their innocent relatives, was it more important than their whole family's safety. Their act was selfish and destructive.

Ehh, adultery between two people is a economical profit? Anyway. Prostitution, drugs and alcohol are a part of many, many Muslim countries as well since many, many centuries. There are places where prostitution, alcohol and etcetera happen very openly in Islamic countries, why doesn't anyone gather the guts to punish these people committing these acts so openly? And within a second they figured out that two individuals (in private) committed adultery?

I very much doubt in the society that this happened, prostitution, alcohol and etc are openly happening. If it is, show me the evidence.

Mate, this was their parents' decision! It's the Pukhtoons who follow Pukhtunwali and it's the Pukhtoons who can stop the practices they find inhuman; We make a society, society doesn't make us!

No, you are wrong. Pashtunwali exists in pashtunland. You can call a pashtun "qooni" in the west and I doubt anything will happen. You call that same pashtun "qooni" in Quandahar in front of his "turbur" and your mouth will be broken. It is not that pashtuns decision to break your mouth. It is the pashtunwali that obligates him to break your mouth because he is in a society that will shun him if he can not stand for his rights, his dignity. His survival is jeopardized. In the west his survival is not jeopardized if you call him a "qooni." Do you see the difference.

People aren't 'forced' to follow anything, not even Islam. Even Islam tells you to either follow the Holy Book, or either choose your own path and clarify your actions in 'Akherat'. This is, once again, not an excuse.

people are manipulated to follow the norm of the society they live in. In the west, you see young girls wearing mini skirts because of peer pressure, no one is putting a gun to their head but the vast majority are doing it any ways. Is it morally right for underage girls or any age for that matter to dress in a sexually provocative manner, the vast majority of people would say no, but they are doing it any ways. In rural Pashtunland, you see girls practicing compete"purda" and in urban pashtunland they wear a "tekri" with the face showing. no one is putting a gun to their head to do what they are doing, they are just doing it because it is the norm of that particular society. Society can be manipulated to be corrupted without even realizing it. Once upon a time homosexuality was shunned in America, today it is socially acceptable. Is the American society manipulated into accepting this or are they forced to accept it. Today you have parents proclaiming " I am proud my son came out of the closet."

And what if someone would want to be called a 'beghairat', 'immoral', 'benamus' and 'dignity-less' rather than die? Does he still deserve death as a punishment? Does Islam say such a person deserves a death-penalty?

You don't understand. In pashtun societies, families are not just your brothers and sisters. they are extended through paternal linkage. If that girls family does not want to start a blood feud with the boys family, the girl has paternal uncles and cousins(tre zaman) that could extend to hundreds of male members. This baighraty, bainamusy extends to them so they would be obligated to correct this. It is almost impossible to stop a blood feud over something like this.

Yes, the very same Osama who didn't give two cents about those hundreds of thousands of Muslims who lost their lives because of him. And how were the British, Americans and Russians punished by 'Pukhtunwali'? Did Pukhtunwali save Pakhtunkhwa from being sold? Did Pukhtunwali save Afghanistan from being destroyed by Mujahideen-Communist war? Is Pukhtunwali saving Afghanistan from being occupied by over forty countries?

Pashtunwali put all those invaders through hell.

It weren't Russians or Americans who created Pukhtunwali, it's not them following Pukhtunwali and nor them wanting to change Pukhtunwali. Just like how Pukhtoons didn't let foreigners force Westernisation on Pukhtoons (which never happened in first place), same-wise opposer of Pukhtunwali shouldn't let Pukhtunwali be forced on each individual just because he was meant to be born in such a society.

I don't get what your saying here. Pashtunwali existed before America and Russia. People are obligated to follow the law of the society that they live in whether they like or not. America is in Afghanistan and they are feeling the wrath of Pashtunwali just like all the other invaders did before them. The harder America pushes, the more animosity and enemies they create. they can not break the will of the Pashtuns because pashtunwali prevents them.
The saying "che badal wa na khlum, za ba pashtun na wum." --"If I do not get my vengeance, I am not worthy of being pashtun." explains what pashtunwali is about.

How do you explain this, this has never happened in the history of modern warfare:
Report Sees Threat in Afghan Allies - WSJ.com

KABUL—The killings of American soldiers by Afghan troops are turning into a "rapidly growing systemic threat" that could undermine the entire war effort, according to a classified military study.
The study by Jeffrey Bordin, a political and behavioral scientist working for the U.S. Army in Afghanistan, warns that the magnitude of the killings "may be unprecedented between 'allies' in modern history."

Based on interviews with some 600 Afghan troops, the report concludes that there is a dangerous "crisis of trust" between Afghan forces and American soldiers that is being ignored by top commanders .........


What about Mir Aimal Kansi:
1993 shootings at CIA Headquarters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can you explain why he did what he did. Believe it or not, it is because of Pashtunwali, or maybe it is the all powerful ISI.

[khushal]

what a awesome entry to the forum. welcome buddy 'n u may give up beating sense into these senseless Arab devotees. all u 'll get is nonsense after nonsense. language of a human should only be spoken with a human not some spineless mistake which people mistake for a human

Whats the matter, dont get mad because you cant reason and use logic. You truly are barbaric. Go get an education and then come back and see how you do.

[khushal]

in ur entire essay long lecture I failed to find even one logical reason for ur narrow minded thinking or ur reason why u 'rent leaving this farangy society. if people keep getting punished for matters u consider a sin then what 'll they answer God?? what 're they being tested for if their life is being controlled by illiterate fanatics already?? whats the use of ur damn religion? if ur doubting the being of heaven 'n hell then whats the damn use of ur religion where ur promised heaven 'n disbelievers hell?? 're u doubting ur holy book now? 'n yes God holds us responsible for managing the world. which means punish rapists punish murderers punish looters punish terrorists etc. stop ridiculing urself by putting adultery in the same league. 'n Shayesta is absolutely right. things like bachabazi prostitution alcohol rapes etc happen very openly in Muslims countries , why arent u 'n ur fellow Arabs as worried about those much more sinful crimes?? why does the fume rise when an act involves A WOMAN? insecure much? u Arabs 're the biggest filth urselves 'cause of whom entire Muslim nations 're dragged in same league as u filth. 'n what good did Islam bring to humanity anyway?? which religion today is associated with oppression 'n cruelty? surely not Islam?? Arabs 've harmed societies much more than anyone else now may it be Indian society Iranian society Tajiki society 'n which society not which all 've beautiful cultures mingled with Allah's fanatics. the Turkish Azeris etc already got rid of ur religion as a culture 'n pe khair Iran 'll follow with many more to come

See how stupid you are. The Turkish Azeris hold the main leadership position in Iran.

[ScimitarXEdge]

what a awesome entry to the forum. welcome buddy 'n u may give up beating sense into these senseless Arab devotees. all u 'll get is nonsense after nonsense. language of a human should only be spoken with a human not some spineless mistake which people mistake for a human

You should read my counter response; I basically ripped apart his entire argument from start to finish

It's only your enslavement to farangyan who see Pashtun way of life as product of Arab devotees. It is just the truth of nature; if Arabs have the same ideas as Pashtuns we should be united. Good stuff. You calling others spineless is absurd considering how your lack of standards protects adulterers.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Thats cuz youre an uncivilized savage. Enjoy the dustbins of history janana

Let's not define civilization by the paradigms of a bunch of global parasites please. History is not as linear as you may think it is.

[ScimitarXEdge]

lol as if Pashtoons 're only people who 'll kill anyone who chases their sisters!! even Pakiis Indians 'n even some westerners 'll do the same to u. its got nothing to do with Pashtunwali dude its got to do with hot blooded men 'n their temper.

It has everything to do with Pashtunwali; since Pashtunwali has it enshrined in its principles

westerners do not, Pakistanis and Indians may; but that's largely because historically Muslims of this region have been influenced by Afghans.

[khushal]

It is very Ironic to me that most here accuse Schimitar of being or promoting Arabs when he understands more about Pashtuns and the Pashtun lifestyle than the ones who proudly call themselves Pashtuns. It seems that the whitewashed people here like the idea of attaching themselves to Pashtun glory but can not understand why it is so.

[unknownprince]

It is very Ironic to me that most here accuse Schimitar of being or promoting Arabs when he understands more about Pashtuns and the Pashtun lifestyle than the ones who proudly call themselves Pashtuns. It seems that the whitewashed people here like the idea of attaching themselves to Pashtun glory but can not understand why it is so.

It is because some of they have either moved to or are from Kabul, or north of it, and support a silly idea which is out of touch with the rest of the Afghanistan.

Thats the reason. This is not to say that Kabul is full of secular trash, but those sleazy snakes whose relatives worked for the Russians.

[Mina]

May Allah swt grant them jannah, ameen. Its quiet shocking to see people even in west be so narrow and merciless minded. And no surprise its always the same people who don't want to live in the same society they praise and worship. Tobah.

[ScimitarXEdge]

May Allah swt grant them jannah, ameen. Its quiet shocking to see people even in west be so narrow and merciless minded. And no surprise its always the same people who don't want to live in the same society they praise and worship. Tobah.

But the reason we live in the west isn't because we are subject to stoning for adultery. So this argument is faulty. It was people who live in Afghanistan who advocated these Laws and Applied Them therefore clearly people there see these Laws as Valid. so this point is fallacious regardless.

Allah won't grant these people jannah, because Allah(swt)'s power is what makes adultery contemptable. This is his Law and a Just God will never contradict Himself.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Yeah I don't actually mind being called Arab by Zahed, I mean my mom is Arab but that's besides the point. Even if I were full Arab I'm still 100 times closer to being Pashtun than Zahed when his Ideas and Values are totally created by Farangyans which share nothing in common with Pashtuns, where as the ideals Arabs and Pashtuns share are because both cultures are more connected to the order of nature than Farangyan are.

It's better to be an Arab than a Farangay, in fact if someone's a slave of Farangyan and calls me an Arab, it's a compliment.

[Mina]

I really don't understand how your comment if a reply to my quote wrora? But what I said is that usually people who praise such activities back home are exactly people who would never live back home and use western interference as an excuse. And as far as I know adultery is supposed to be punished so that they receive their punishment in this life so Allah swt eases his strictness in their next life. But keeping that aside these two people weren't married and adultery wasn't the direct reason for being stone so Islamically seen this punishment wasn't in its place and unjustified.

[ScimitarXEdge]

in ur entire essay long lecture I failed to find even one logical reason for ur narrow minded thinking or ur reason why u 'rent leaving this farangy society. if people keep getting punished for matters u consider a sin then what 'll they answer God?? what 're they being tested for if their life is being controlled by illiterate fanatics already?? whats the use of ur damn religion? if ur doubting the being of heaven 'n hell then whats the damn use of ur religion where ur promised heaven 'n disbelievers hell??

Well based on your response it's apparent to me that the reason you fail to see logic is because your own understanding of Logic is terribly lacking to begin with. As demonstrated by your responses numerous Logical Inconsistencies which I will detail now.

Firstly, The purpose of religion or any ideology is social regulation. So by necessity the organizational principles for behavior are applied to maintain social balance and order, this is independent of whether God is testing people, in fact the idea of God is testing someone is not necessary for this principle to apply. It does not matter if someone is illiterate or illiterate or even if someone is an Atheist because these principles are based on Nature and apply because of the natural relationship between human faculties and their Environment.

Secondly being tested doesn't mean the behaviors do not have consequences. If we follow the God hypothesis, then God only tests to see if you'll perform the act or nor the consequence of the act such as punishment is the result from your choices. If you chose to commit adultery, you're chosing to become punished. Even the Qur'an says in many verses "you'll be punished in this life AND the next"; being punished by humans is what he means.

You're arguing a false dichotomy between Adultery and rape, prostitution theft and murder/terrorism. The reason why these activities are deemed crimes is for the same reason adultery is deemed a crime, they interrupt/disrupt the proper functioning of human faculties in respects to their environment. In other words they're condemned because they're all destructive. In this sense they are really connected with adultery. Prostitution is really a form of adultery anyways. So Just because other crimes exist doesn't mean we should ignore adultery.

And just they exist in Muslim countries doesn't mean they're accepted; and they're certainly NOT in the open. There are no Laws which Sanction, Bacha Baz or Prostitution. We aren't discussing those crimes in this thread because this thread is about PENALTY FOR ADULTERY; therefore it doesn't mean those other crimes are not a concern, in fact Islamic Law punishes Bacha Baz even more harshly than adultery.

why arent u 'n ur fellow Arabs as worried about those much more sinful crimes?? why does the fume rise when an act involves A WOMAN? insecure much?

This again is your own false dichotomy which you invented in your own mind. We're only discussing adultery here because that's the topic. And those acts are not much more sinful; They're all destructive in their own ways. The reason why we're concerned about adultery is because it's destructive and hence must be punished and stopped. Only in the distorted Farangay psychological paradigm does things involving women denote insecurity, this doesn't apply to us.

u Arabs 're the biggest filth urselves 'cause of whom entire Muslim nations 're dragged in same league as u filth

Blaming the Arabs are lies and tactics the farangyan and their slaves use to confuse people and divert them against each other and rather than focus against the Farangyan, this helps Farangyan keep their power.

it's the Farangayan which are why Muslim Nations today are in filth, The Farangyan divided up the lands of Muslims, they created the current National diviisions and boundaries they're the ones who spread their corruption in the society, such as alcohol and adultery. This is evident by the places Farangayan colonized, Middle East and Asia; Saudis are puppets of Farangyan, Pakistan was created by Farangayan, even Afghanistan was made by Farangayan when the kings became slaves of the farangyan before Afghanistan was Khurasan. Amanullah even tried to copy the farangyan and that's how all these corruptions started entering Afghanistan. Arabs never fought Battle of Gandamak with Afghans, the British did. Arabs never tried to impose corruption in Pashtuns, the British did. The evidence of history shows regardless of how Islam came to Afghanistan, Arabs are our allies on the basis of ideology and principles and the Farangyan are our enemies. That's where the source of our problems rest. And you can see that Wherever Farangyan have went there is catastrophe. in America entire native population exterminated by Farangyans....there were no Arabs who went to America to kill the Natives. This means Arabs were never the cause of the problems; but they're victims of the same Farangyan as we are. That's why they are our allies.

'n what good did Islam bring to humanity anyway??

Apparently you're ignorant of history; Islam founded a brilliant and powerful civilization for centuries; It's only when Corrupters from Farangyan and Our own leaders forgetting Islam and maintaining Islamic society for personal satisfaction that people began to fall.

But Even if Islam never established a powerful civilization; Islam brought us the rules and principkles that are in harmony with the Natural Order and are consistent with our intrinsic faculties and that is a greater benefit to mankind than anything else.

?? Arabs 've harmed societies much more than anyone else now may it be Indian society Iranian society Tajiki society 'n

With the exception of AlQaeda, Arabs never brought any corruptions to these cultures; in fact if by Arabs you mean the Muslims who introduced Islam to the region, they removed all the corruptions of the society. Which means they didn't harm but they benefitted the society. It wasn't Arabs who harmed us but the ones who introduced corruptions immoral behaviors and lifestyles; Your Masters the farangyan.

 
not which all 've beautiful cultures mingled with Allah's fanatic

Your paradigm for beautiful culture is based on the dysfunctional, degenerate and destructive materialistic culture of the farangyan. Any culture that protects adultery is the ugliest there is. And if you think a beautiful society is one that protects adultery; then your society is wretched to the core.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I really don't understand how your comment if a reply to my quote wrora? But what I said is that usually people who praise such activities back home are exactly people who would never live back home and use western interference as an excuse. And as far as I know adultery is supposed to be punished so that they receive their punishment in this life so Allah swt eases his strictness in their next life. But keeping that aside these two people weren't married and adultery wasn't the direct reason for being stone so Islamically seen this punishment wasn't in its place and unjustified.

That doesn't make sense it sounds like you're contradicting yourself in the same statement. Either way it's an irrelevant point entirely. The people back home are praise this activity themselves. Did you not read the Thread Starters post where people were calling within Afghanistan and showing support for this practice? In this you're presenting a false distinction. People support this regardless of where they are. Where they are has nothing if at all to do with it. It's the principle behind it.

The reasons we live in other societies are for numerous causes; but mainly because of circumstances not principles.

I'm a Mu'tazili I have a different interpretation and understanding about Islamic Law and its practices. I actually believe in the absence of a Shari'ah System then this Law is acceptable. Only when a Shari'ah system is in place is this practice condemable because it's no longer necessary. For right now it is necessary because we don't have a fully Islamic Government.