Stoning to Death

[SroZaro Aslaha]

You don't know your pride unless you know your shame

What is evident is these people have lost their sense of standards and are using freedom as a scapegoat for immorality. This concerns me greatly.[/B]

Freedom as a scapegoat for immorality? Afghans haven’t exactly tasted the fruits of their own labour since the assassination of Mohammad Daoud Khan, true, but how you came forth to calling it a ‘scapegoat’ is beyond me. Why would the girl and the boy come back if that freedom was just an excuse for their [accused] immoral actions? This was no scapegoat. No, no, no, they didn’t use freedom as a scapegoat – it was more or less the other way around, they wanted to be together and were escaping from the oppression they felt from their relatives. So when they were promised sanctuary – they felt perhaps their parents would listen and decided to come to their senses. Tell me, where’s the ‘’honour’’ in lying to the couple and promising them safety – and then, when they come back, bashing them to death without a fair hearing? They had a chance of not returning – but their conscious mind and heart were probably filled with guilt and remorse - which is why they returned. Sadly, their trust in their own citizens and parents led them straight to their own grave. Pukhtonwali does have a mercy principle which takes place in the same manner as all other social feuds - so why this was dealt with so barbarically is inexcusable.

''Well I'm a mathematician, and I see no logic in this analysis; try something more relevant''

Maths solves equations, not ideologies. If this were to be solved by calculation and logic, then this whole incident shouldn't have existed. Where’s the logic in pursuing an ancient ’man-made Code of Honour’ instead of following a man's own instincts?

''Everything is peoples personal choices; our behaviors are never exclusive to only us.''

Yes. Everyone knows the law of action - reaction. But if we were to live in world systematically designed along that analogy; we’d be walking on toes for the rest of our lives constantly in fear of causing havoc in the system. If that’s the case then we might just as well have been born as robots. There’s a reason why we’re given eyes, ears, mouth mind and senses people. If we were to build a world based on that ‘robot-consonance’ then who’d decide our rules? Or even better, who would decide who decides the rules we have to follow? This is why we’ve been given a belief and set of guidelines already – so we avoid a tyrannical kakistocracy. Unfortunately those guidelines can bite you in the arse if you mix it with controversial notions of your own - like Pukhtonwali. So here comes the question, what are these parents? Are they following the basics of Islamic traditions? Or are they Pukhtane who are following the ancient principles of Pukhtonwali? They can’t be both as there is a high level of contradiction between the two. One cannot be both 100%.

''Adultery destroys family, social order, sexual values. Things that are important. So yes they're violating everyone rights to a functional society. ''

Seriously? Do you have any idea how many children are day inn and day out tormented by watching their parents not getting along because of forced matrimony? How many boys and girls watch their mothers try to commit suicide or run away or be severely beaten to death by their father? Of course you wouldn't know [or more correctly do not want to know] ... you've only calculated the westerner’s divorcee and ''unhappy'' statistics while putting a blunt eye on our own graphics. The statistics in our own nation would melt the tinfoil cap off your head if you ever discovered that number. People like you are familiar with the problem, but are prioritizing on the wrong territory. Maybe every parent should focus on teaching their children the right way to live, instead of constantly thinking of what their neighbour does. All that talk and energy those idiots heat up on others could be put to better use don't you think? Like talking sense into your daughter/sons head? Explaining to them the hullabaloos of our sociological society which is so closely intertwined with religious fanatic ideologies - and the consequences of crossing either perimeter!? Not scaring them to death, or being so scared yourself that you hurriedly try marrying them off - but explaining to them with sincere honesty of the arduousness lying ahead. I'm pretty sure they would understand much better if you'd done it the right way. These parents clearly did not do their job.

Be a Pashtun, toughen up?
How you would think that by throwing stones at two people will ‘’toughen you up’’ as a Pukhtoon is mind-bogglingly disturbing and quite honestly insulting. I don’t know where you get your compliments, but I sure as hell don’t get my Pukhtoon pride, honour, and dignity by throwing stones at the felonious. I don’t coincide to adultery, and neither do I coincide to death penalty, I do however concede to the ethics of life I have in my power to abide and use to influence others by. [MARK: To influence, not to persuade like most of those yetis try to do].

KHUSHAL: ’’The parents have no control here. Pashtunwali rules here whether the parents agree with it or not.’’

Empires did not fall because people kept thinking ’I have no choice’. Slavery was never abolished because the salves kept chanting ’I have no choice’. That is a scapegoat right there. If you think the system is a failure, then you have to – for the sake of your future descendants work towards bringing that system of hegemony down. You will actually SAVE more lives of your future family members by acting now rather than letting things like this continue for centuries beyond. Those parents, if they know the system is wrong – they are selfish, but if they don’t then they have to be educated on that. Let me you remind you all of one thing. You can tax me, you can force me to slavery, you can beat and scarce me for life – but I will till the end of my days still fight for my rights as a human being. Your ideas of ‘’having no choice’’ is deteriorating your future family more than you realize. Humans were made to live as humans – not as animals or pets. I understand the parents’ situation – but no way in hell do I stand by their choice. You always have a choice! Just like those two here who chose to run away.

When I was growing up – I was taught three vital lessons which I was obligated to follow:
The 1st was that I was a Pukhtoon – in other words belonging to [and I’m not kidding] ’the greatest, bravest and most honourable people on earth’- and as a part of that ethnic environment – I had to maintain its remarkable reputation as best as I could + give an extra 100% more [mainly my fathers principle]. The 2nd lesson was that I was a Musulman. I was to believe in Khudai Talah and our Profet Mohammad (Pbuh). Period. No questions asked [Mainly my mother, heheh:]. My thirdlesson however derived from nothing else than common sense. I was taught that I should never point fingers at anyone – not one person, alive nor dead, was I allowed to point fingers at. The objectivity here was that if I pointed one finger at someone up front, I’d have three of my own fingers pointing back at me. This extraordinary morale was sprung neither of Islamic vocabulary, nor of our ethnic and patriotic beliefs. And quite honestly – it’s the best lesson I’ve been given of all three.

The conceptual extended message here is that ‘’you are not divine’’. You are not perfect, just like any other finite creature. In this case; you did not create that life, so taking it would be stealing. If you are a true Musulman, this note alone should trigger your curiosity to indulge your synopsis in pragmatic sense – because you are in fact fundamentally breaking God’s commandments by enacting on your foolish ‘moral’ endeavours. So ask yourself, are you following your beliefs correctly?

Hence, it is essential to point out that while you are still alive – you should never be too quick to predict your own tomorrow different than of those you so easily condemn today. You never know if you might find yourself in a like-wise situation yourself and one day suddenly be dawned upon that your best line of reasoning were not made for the ‘’Pukhtonwalis’’ ears to hear because of their ‘’code of honour’’. And before you know it- you’re smudged all over the place.

Anyway, if you do not have a monotheistic belief in your system, the rule still applies; You did not create that person, hence you are not entitled to decree that individuals existence. For that decree, we have God, we have Allah, we have Buddah, Jahve, mother nature, quantum physics and ‘what-not-you-believe-in’ to take that burden off your shoulders.
So relax and enjoy those 70/80 years of life you’ve been given to the extent of being happy. I’m sure the Lord himself doesn’t like sultry followers who do nothing but criticize His artistic creativity. In other words – Pukhtonwali or not – if you can’t bring common sense and logic to it – then maybe you should change it. Us humans constructed these ‘’codes of honour’’ so ideally we can and are allowed to change it. THAT is something you CAN change or [even] destroy – an individual’s life on the other hand is not in your right hand.

By the way – a last notice: I agree that the punishment existed before Taliban. But the whip lashing and stone throwing punishment originated from Islamic traditions. Feel free to deny this till you turn dry, but before the Islamic influence came with Arabian pilgrims – we used to live by the Indian Sanskrit literature later evolving to Avesta [Iranian Sanskrit] where we worshipped fire. The punishments and rituals that were practiced by Aryans were mostly of sacrifice for the deities– a completely different type of ethnical devotion than Pukhtonwali - so yes, the stone throwing relates its roots back to Islamic Sharia. The sword hacking on the other hand might date as far back as the Aryan era.

You don't know your pride unless you know your shame

[faye]

and are you going to accept a forced marriage scimitar? what makes you think that others don't choose wrongly for a person as well. i thought a forced marriage is against the islamic belief. that the couple concerned must agree to the choice of partner.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Lol @ the fanatics in this thread


Shayesta jana mor shidey desa

[ScimitarXEdge]

Freedom as a scapegoat for immorality? Afghans haven’t exactly tasted the fruits of their own labour since the assassination of Mohammad Daoud Khan, true, but how you came forth to calling it a ‘scapegoat’ is beyond me. Why would the girl and the boy come back if that freedom was just an excuse for their [accused] immoral actions?

The expression was in reference to people who are arguing this case under the pretense of Freedom and Human Rights. As for your question; people have adopted this farangay notion that severance for an activity legitimizes the activity or that their activities are no longer shameful or deplorable merely because it is granted amnesty. Hence such ideas can be used to use freedom as a scapegoat for immorality.

This was no scapegoat. No, no, no, they didn’t use freedom as a scapegoat – it was more or less the other way around, they wanted to be together and were escaping from the oppression they felt from their relatives.

It was an oppression in their own mind, created by shallow impulse driven notions of a impulse driven facade which resembles things manufactured by the impulse driven materialistic cultures which are an affront to man's relationship with nature.

So when they were promised sanctuary – they felt perhaps their parents would listen and decided to come to their senses. Tell me, where’s the ‘’honour’’ in lying to the couple and promising them safety – and then, when they come back, bashing them to death without a fair hearing

The honor was in the Greater Good; they did not lie; but realized that allowing such deviations to go unchecked would only worsen the condition of society and hence realized that the purpose of their Moral Laws and Customs were to regulate society, and opted therefore to follow suit with penalty. These people who not oppressed because it was them that chose to indulge in the wrong. Oppression only happens when you do the RIGHT thing and are tyrannized for it. If you do the wrong thing, then the tyranny you face is justice for your crimes.

They had a chance of not returning – but their conscious mind and heart were probably filled with guilt and remorse -

Perhaps so; it could be that they were motive, but regardless the punishment for such liasons is still meritable regardless. That's what's on debate here. Not the details of the situation itself.

which is why they returned. Sadly, their trust in their own citizens and parents led them straight to their own grave.

This is as much your speculation as it is mine. But let's assume that this is the case. Let me apply some Mathematical Deduction here. That they returned because they trusted their own citizens. Would they have returned if there was no penalty but their immoral choices would not have been accepted and thus they would disband from each other and have to make up for their actions by reforming themselves and acting as an advocate on behalf of society's standards? If they truly believed in the merit of their behavior, then clearly not, and thus would have been justly reprimanded for their corruption. If they didn't believe in the merit of their behavior; then what excuse do they have to indulge in this? The deductive process shows that for whatever reason they proved themselves no longer in harmony with the proper order of things and thus had to be dispensed.

Pukhtonwali does have a mercy principle which takes place in the same manner as all other social feuds - so why this was dealt with so barbarically is inexcusable

Pashtunwali does have a mercy principles; but no one has this mercy principle been applied in regards to sexual immorality. It would be painstakingly difficult for you to find a concretely documented example of something on such a scale. And even if you were to find an example. The thousands of counter examples would demonstrate that the Exception PROVES the rule.

Maths solves equations, not ideologies. If this were to be solved by calculation and logic, then this whole incident shouldn't have existed. Where’s the logic in pursuing an ancient ’man-made Code of Honour’ instead of following a man's own instincts?

You have a faulty and novice idea of mathematics
Continuious Mathematics solves equations; Discrete Mathematics; deals with Aspects of Distinct relations of finite sets. Finite Sets deal with Logical Analysis. Thus mathematics has application even in ideologies, Especially when ideologies are based on false appeals with weak assessment of how truth values are computed to support them.

There's plenty of logic in Pursuing a "man-made code of honour" when those codes of honor are really reflections of how our Attributes evolved as a species to regulate our relationships with our Environment; which makes them not really man made at all but profound insights.


''Everything is peoples personal choices; our behaviors are never exclusive to only us.''

Yes. Everyone knows the law of action - reaction. But if we were to live in world systematically designed along that analogy; we’d be walking on toes for the rest of our lives constantly in fear of causing havoc in the system. If that’s the case then we might just as well have been born as robots.

That's a false dichotomy and you're drawing lines in the sand, nor did I advocate that this applies in every situation or circumstance, so this is a straw man.

Different choices and behaviors carry different weights, because their gravity and impact act upon different scales. So thus your perception of a world of such a nature is merely some slippery slope and this analogy of robots is a type of emotional blackmail to portray a conscience that takes morality seriously is one without human merits. But Alas such a falser notion could not be posited. For it is because of the benefit and sensibility to bring mankind to it's highest potential , to a condition which serves its attributes best, that we advocate and impelement this order.

Unfortunately those guidelines can bite you in the arse if you mix it with controversial notions of your own - like Pukhtonwali. So here comes the question, what are these parents? Are they following the basics of Islamic traditions? Or are they Pukhtane who are following the ancient principles of Pukhtonwali? They can’t be both as there is a high level of contradiction between the two. One cannot be both 100%.

I'm not an advocate of pashtunwali; but I understand it but I much more prefer it's stern hand than the irresponsible deviations being advocated here. However it would be better to have a much fluid approach about marriage issues. However that is not a luxury currently affordable. Maybe 50-60 years from now when the potential distortions and pollutions of the Shallow Materialistic indulgent cultures has been wiped out from our planet can we have maybe a much more conscientious approach. Until then this is how it must be. I'm more an advocate of the Islamic Approach. Either way the issue here is fornciation/adultery not forced marriages. There is no way one can legitimze it.

Seriously? Do you have any idea how many children are day inn and day out tormented by watching their parents not getting along because of forced matrimony? How many boys and girls watch their mothers try to commit suicide or run away or be severely beaten to death by their father? Of course you wouldn't know [or more correctly do not want to know] ... you've only calculated the westerner’s divorcee and ''unhappy'' statistics while putting a blunt eye on our own graphics. The statistics in our own nation would melt the tinfoil cap off your head if you ever discovered that number. People like you are familiar with the problem, but are prioritizing on the wrong territory. Maybe every parent should focus on teaching their children the right way to live, instead of constantly thinking of what their neighbour does. All that talk and energy those idiots heat up on others could be put to better use don't you think? Like talking sense into your daughter/sons head? Explaining to them the hullabaloos of our sociological society which is so closely intertwined with religious fanatic ideologies - and the consequences of crossing either perimeter!? Not scaring them to death, or being so scared yourself that you hurriedly try marrying them off - but explaining to them with sincere honesty of the arduousness lying ahead. I'm pretty sure they would understand much better if you'd done it the right way. These parents clearly did not do their job.

Indeed the Pashtun cultural life is very rigorous and harsh. I certainly do not agree with domestic abuse nor do I take a blind eye to the impact of such a thing on peoples lives. But domestic abuse is not something that's a product of force marriages but a product of peoples lack of sensitivity towards each other, mainly a misunderstanding of how to approach marriage life itself. Meaning the same statistics would persist regardless of what variety of marital convergence occurred. With that said; the variable we're debating is whether Capital Penalties are somehow inappropriate for adultery or fornication. Simply put; they are not. The destructiveness of adultery/fornication far outweight domestic abuse. While it could be argued that children are tormented; this is really an argument based on an Overly hyper sensitized spoiled Brat culture that is predominant amongst the farangyan. They even say that merely disciplining children is abuse now. Can you believe that? Ridiculous to the Nth degree. Point being the rugged culture of Pashtuns is not necessarily "tormenting" children, rather it creates a hearty people able to withstand adversities that people of much softer societies to break. We should eventually shift towards a more Islamic System, but this is difficult when other forces eixst which advocate a loose deviant way of life. I do not claim that this situation is Ideal; but it is better than the alternative being proposed. That we just grant severance to the immoral. I concur with the need of education, and explanation. For me myself I advocate these ideas on the basis of being intellectually convinced of their merits on whatever degree. However, with such limited resources, socialization is their only method; thereby these deviants are without excuse. The concern of neighbors, albeit not the purpose of morality, does act as a relevant check/balance of society. These concepts don't appear from nowhere they arrive from values prevalent within the environment.

We can at least agree that the value of sincere honesty and inculcating their children to be better prepared for their future for when these rites of passage come. I'm not sure if that's a luxury the pashtuns can truly afford right now.

Be a Pashtun, toughen up?
How you would think that by throwing stones at two people will ‘’toughen you up’’ as a Pukhtoon is mind-bogglingly disturbing and quite honestly insulting. I don’t know where you get your compliments, but I sure as hell don’t get my Pukhtoon pride, honour, and dignity by throwing stones at the felonious. I don’t coincide to adultery, and neither do I coincide to death penalty, I do however concede to the ethics of life I have in my power to abide and use to influence others by. [MARK: To influence, not to persuade like most of those yetis try to do].

Well that is where your conundrum rests; It wasn't by stoning that ones becomes tough; but by accepting that some penalties are harsh for very valid reasons. We must accept this as a meritable and valid way of regulating social order. There are clearly nuances and gray areas, but in the end the practice itself is not invalid and have valid conditions which is to be applied.

The conceptual extended message here is that ‘’you are not divine’’. You are not perfect, just like any other finite creature. In this case; you did not create that life, so taking it would be stealing. If you are a true Musulman, this note alone should trigger your curiosity to indulge your synopsis in pragmatic sense – because you are in fact fundamentally breaking God’s commandments by enacting on your foolish ‘moral’ endeavours. So ask yourself, are you following your beliefs correctly?

Hence, it is essential to point out that while you are still alive – you should never be too quick to predict your own tomorrow different than of those you so easily condemn today. You never know if you might find yourself in a like-wise situation yourself and one day suddenly be dawned upon that your best line of reasoning were not made for the ‘’Pukhtonwalis’’ ears to hear because of their ‘’code of honour’’. And before you know it- you’re smudged all over the place.

Anyway, if you do not have a monotheistic belief in your system, the rule still applies; You did not create that person, hence you are not entitled to decree that individuals existence. For that decree, we have God, we have Allah, we have Buddah, Jahve, mother nature, quantum physics and ‘what-not-you-believe-in’ to take that burden off your shoulders.

Being Divine or Not, is a totally irrelevant point; We're apart a system a System within Nature, Nature culminating into the workings of this Pale Blue dot scattered in the azureous black ocean of time and space. This is how we regulate ourselves. Perhaps this is not the ideal Divine Method, but we're also not in ideal divine conditions, for example a Global Islamic State, by which the normative checks and balances which would allow a much more fluid and easy going social order to happen without worry about deviations infiltrating to a large degree. So we work with the next best thing, whether Pashtunwali or otherwise. In Such an instance God, Nature, Buddha, Quantum Physics , The Tao understands and even appreciates, that we are doing the best we can with what we had available. It is better this than to be like Farangayan who have just thrown morality into the wind. I doubt whatever exists, whether it is a conscious Enity like God/Allah or the blind Laws of Physics/Quantum Mechanics would see that as a breaking of its commandments or principles; for this/these are what established the conditions that necessitates this moral order in the first place. So thus because we are integrated in this system; and because this System is integrated into all of our lives; it is by necessity whether we created the person or not to regulate the order which manages the moral order of all around us, individuals included. We live in this life and thus our rules and termperments should pertain to what happens in this life. And because there are individuals like yourself who are trying to discourage us from doing so; this makes the demands on us even more imperative as a counter weight. So contrarily, the rule you insist on does not apply and the burden is on the shoulders of all who exist.

As Khushal stated; whether the individuals agree or not the bounds of moral truth make these standards impinging.

By the way – a last notice: I agree that the punishment existed before Taliban. But the whip lashing and stone throwing punishment originated from Islamic traditions. Feel free to deny this till you turn dry, but before the Islamic influence came with Arabian pilgrims – we used to live by the Indian Sanskrit literature later evolving to Avesta [Iranian Sanskrit] where we worshipped fire. The punishments and rituals that were practiced by Aryans were mostly of sacrifice for the deities– a completely different type of ethnical devotion than Pukhtonwali - so yes, the stone throwing relates its roots back to Islamic Sharia. The sword hacking on the other hand might date as far back as the Aryan era.

The actual means of punishment were prescribed by Islam; but the necessity for penalizing adulterers is principle to maintaining social equilbrium for long before Islam existed. Avesta did not derive from Sanskrit, Avesta and Sanskrit are from two different traditions, although both Indo-Aryan by linguistic definition. We may have been fire worshippers we may have been Hindus; whatever we were, Pashto and Pashtuns didnt exist back then. Perhaps the progenitors of Pashtuns did, but not Pashtuns themselves we arose from the collective realization to embody the principles that our ancestors awakened to over time.

[ScimitarXEdge]

and are you going to accept a forced marriage scimitar? what makes you think that others don't choose wrongly for a person as well. i thought a forced marriage is against the islamic belief. that the couple concerned must agree to the choice of partner.

Islamically forced marriages in the general sense are in fact not consistent with Islamic Law; but forced marriages are much more appropriate than fornication/adultery or the loose behaviors predominant in your culture. It's not a matter of advocating forced marriages here; it is a matter of what's relevant for the conditions that exist. For the conditions of Pashtuns that is relevant if peoples behavior are not consistent with the social order.

[شمله ور خراساني]

This thread shows how people really feel about fornication.

I think stoning is an appropriate punishment for fornication. And like every other law in Islam, it is an act of apostasy to oppose it or to dislike it. Because disliking that which Allah has revealed takes on out of the fold of Islam.

So basically, several people have left Islam by expressing their views in this thread.

[faye]

that's convenient for you to say when you live outside of the harsh systems you promote.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I dont promote them; that's how they are. So no it's not "easy" it's merely the realityy of what is

it's EASY FOR YOU to oppose this when you're outside of those conditions; That definitely is true.

[faye]

This thread shows how people really feel about fornication.

I think stoning is an appropriate punishment for fornication. And like every other law in Islam, it is an act of apostasy to oppose it or to dislike it. Because disliking that which Allah has revealed takes on out of the fold of Islam.

So basically, several people have left Islam by expressing their views in this thread.

it's good that a pure being like yourself is here to make your judgement upon others. i guess the stoning video would be one you would enjoy as general entertainment.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Faye you don't need to be a drama queen about everything; If you like your women to act like tramps and men to be vagabonds, by all means embrace your degenerate Aussie culture. Let us have our own.

[faye]

i wasn't being a drama queen, i was being sarcastic. so you stop being a drama queen by accusing all westerners of being like tramps and vagabonds, scimitarx:-)

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

This thread shows how people really feel about fornication.

I think stoning is an appropriate punishment for fornication. And like every other law in Islam, it is an act of apostasy to oppose it or to dislike it. Because disliking that which Allah has revealed takes on out of the fold of Islam.

So basically, several people have left Islam by expressing their views in this thread.

Thats cuz youre an uncivilized savage. Enjoy the dustbins of history janana

[Zahed]

You are wrong. Pashtunwali is neither dead or dying. Go to any Pashtun village in KP or Afghanistan and ask any male member in the village if you could take their daughter out for a date. If your throat is not sliced and just came out with a beating, consider yourself lucky.

lol as if Pashtoons 're only people who 'll kill anyone who chases their sisters!! even Pakiis Indians 'n even some westerners 'll do the same to u. its got nothing to do with Pashtunwali dude its got to do with hot blooded men 'n their temper.

[Zahed]

my admission of personal choices doesn't mean Our Personal Choices doesn't have Laws or Rules governing over them. We are subject to a Higher Law, because this Higher Law is the foundation by which we can make choices at all. Whether you call this Law Allah or Nature or Evolution, it doesn't matter to me. I don't care if you believe in God or don't; to me this is an irrelevant point. What I care about is Society's Order and how someone's actions keep social equilbrium and the function and purpose of human behavior in their proper order. Someone being responsible for their own actions is EXACTLY WHY we are required to take action against them for making Immoral or Corrupt choices; because it means that they wilfully chose to do evil. This is consequence of God's Laws; if we allow people to do evil we're allowing evil to pollute our environment and therefore we have to stop them to maintain the Order of Human Life. Someones' actions affects Our lives here on Earth, so why would we wait for them to answer their crimes in Heaven or Hell? what if Heaven doesn't exist? or if God doesn't exist? Then they can get away with whatever they want on Earth and ruin the fabric of society? We cannot have that. God holds us responsible for maintaining the rules and order of society on Earth, he will deal with the ultimate fate of their choices in Qiyammah. The Pashtun elders made the wise decision; adultery creates corruption in society; and by protecting them they would be allowing corruption to spread; which totally defeats the point of protecting them. Plus it would create badal between the clans. Pashtunwali has certain purposes, i.e. regulate society and it works to serve that purpose. I don't agree with all of it, but it is better to have Pashtunwali and harsh rules than free reign for adultery or fornication. Arabs are not Farangyan and Arabs did not impose their culture and rules on anyone. When Islam was promoted by Muhammad(saw); the first job was to Correct the Arab society and behaviors; so that shows Islam is not the Arabic culture but something that changed Arab society. This is also disproves your idea that God leaving people responsibles for their actions implies that not taking actions to stop immorality. Islam spread from there because it's principles were in balance with how human attributes function with nature. So it would not matter if first Muslims were Chinese, Indians or even Pashtuns; the principles of Islam are apart of the Universal Order. and that is what makes Islam valid; and why Islam is not farangyan or arabiyan but Islam is nature. and Nature applies to everyone. What makes the Arabs more our allies and Farangyan our enemies is that the Arabs never tried to disturb or destroy our Environment and divert our Natural relationships with our surroundings and alter the natural functioning with our Environment. the Farangyan have. And hence this is what makes your argument an advocation of human rights or freedom but actually a violation of both. What makes your argument Farangyan brainwashing is that You're disguising corruption and injustice by falsely portraying them as human rights. And in that this contradicts Family friendly environment and education because fallacy creates injustice and it spreads ignorance by misguiding people towards falsehood. There's no greater example of an attempt of Emotional Manipulation then exploiting Human Rights as a scapegoat and disguise to legitimize Immorality. These are not human rights but the destruction of justice. What we're doing in Farangay society is directly a consequence of Farangyan disturbing the functioning of our society; it has nothing to do with any merit or virtue of their society but distorted balances. when we can learn how to counter act their activities; then we can make sure their culture never adverse affects anyone else ever again.

in ur entire essay long lecture I failed to find even one logical reason for ur narrow minded thinking or ur reason why u 'rent leaving this farangy society. if people keep getting punished for matters u consider a sin then what 'll they answer God?? what 're they being tested for if their life is being controlled by illiterate fanatics already?? whats the use of ur damn religion? if ur doubting the being of heaven 'n hell then whats the damn use of ur religion where ur promised heaven 'n disbelievers hell?? 're u doubting ur holy book now? 'n yes God holds us responsible for managing the world. which means punish rapists punish murderers punish looters punish terrorists etc. stop ridiculing urself by putting adultery in the same league. 'n Shayesta is absolutely right. things like bachabazi prostitution alcohol rapes etc happen very openly in Muslims countries , why arent u 'n ur fellow Arabs as worried about those much more sinful crimes?? why does the fume rise when an act involves A WOMAN? insecure much? u Arabs 're the biggest filth urselves 'cause of whom entire Muslim nations 're dragged in same league as u filth. 'n what good did Islam bring to humanity anyway?? which religion today is associated with oppression 'n cruelty? surely not Islam?? Arabs 've harmed societies much more than anyone else now may it be Indian society Iranian society Tajiki society 'n which society not which all 've beautiful cultures mingled with Allah's fanatics. the Turkish Azeris etc already got rid of ur religion as a culture 'n pe khair Iran 'll follow with many more to come

[Zahed]

Freedom as a scapegoat for immorality? Afghans haven’t exactly tasted the fruits of their own labour since the assassination of Mohammad Daoud Khan, true, but how you came forth to calling it a ‘scapegoat’ is beyond me. Why would the girl and the boy come back if that freedom was just an excuse for their [accused] immoral actions? This was no scapegoat. No, no, no, they didn’t use freedom as a scapegoat – it was more or less the other way around, they wanted to be together and were escaping from the oppression they felt from their relatives. So when they were promised sanctuary – they felt perhaps their parents would listen and decided to come to their senses. Tell me, where’s the ‘’honour’’ in lying to the couple and promising them safety – and then, when they come back, bashing them to death without a fair hearing? They had a chance of not returning – but their conscious mind and heart were probably filled with guilt and remorse - which is why they returned. Sadly, their trust in their own citizens and parents led them straight to their own grave. Pukhtonwali does have a mercy principle which takes place in the same manner as all other social feuds - so why this was dealt with so barbarically is inexcusable.

''Well I'm a mathematician, and I see no logic in this analysis; try something more relevant''

Maths solves equations, not ideologies. If this were to be solved by calculation and logic, then this whole incident shouldn't have existed. Where’s the logic in pursuing an ancient ’man-made Code of Honour’ instead of following a man's own instincts?

''Everything is peoples personal choices; our behaviors are never exclusive to only us.''

Yes. Everyone knows the law of action - reaction. But if we were to live in world systematically designed along that analogy; we’d be walking on toes for the rest of our lives constantly in fear of causing havoc in the system. If that’s the case then we might just as well have been born as robots. There’s a reason why we’re given eyes, ears, mouth mind and senses people. If we were to build a world based on that ‘robot-consonance’ then who’d decide our rules? Or even better, who would decide who decides the rules we have to follow? This is why we’ve been given a belief and set of guidelines already – so we avoid a tyrannical kakistocracy. Unfortunately those guidelines can bite you in the arse if you mix it with controversial notions of your own - like Pukhtonwali. So here comes the question, what are these parents? Are they following the basics of Islamic traditions? Or are they Pukhtane who are following the ancient principles of Pukhtonwali? They can’t be both as there is a high level of contradiction between the two. One cannot be both 100%.

''Adultery destroys family, social order, sexual values. Things that are important. So yes they're violating everyone rights to a functional society. ''

Seriously? Do you have any idea how many children are day inn and day out tormented by watching their parents not getting along because of forced matrimony? How many boys and girls watch their mothers try to commit suicide or run away or be severely beaten to death by their father? Of course you wouldn't know [or more correctly do not want to know] ... you've only calculated the westerner’s divorcee and ''unhappy'' statistics while putting a blunt eye on our own graphics. The statistics in our own nation would melt the tinfoil cap off your head if you ever discovered that number. People like you are familiar with the problem, but are prioritizing on the wrong territory. Maybe every parent should focus on teaching their children the right way to live, instead of constantly thinking of what their neighbour does. All that talk and energy those idiots heat up on others could be put to better use don't you think? Like talking sense into your daughter/sons head? Explaining to them the hullabaloos of our sociological society which is so closely intertwined with religious fanatic ideologies - and the consequences of crossing either perimeter!? Not scaring them to death, or being so scared yourself that you hurriedly try marrying them off - but explaining to them with sincere honesty of the arduousness lying ahead. I'm pretty sure they would understand much better if you'd done it the right way. These parents clearly did not do their job.

Be a Pashtun, toughen up?
How you would think that by throwing stones at two people will ‘’toughen you up’’ as a Pukhtoon is mind-bogglingly disturbing and quite honestly insulting. I don’t know where you get your compliments, but I sure as hell don’t get my Pukhtoon pride, honour, and dignity by throwing stones at the felonious. I don’t coincide to adultery, and neither do I coincide to death penalty, I do however concede to the ethics of life I have in my power to abide and use to influence others by. [MARK: To influence, not to persuade like most of those yetis try to do].

KHUSHAL: ’’The parents have no control here. Pashtunwali rules here whether the parents agree with it or not.’’

Empires did not fall because people kept thinking ’I have no choice’. Slavery was never abolished because the salves kept chanting ’I have no choice’. That is a scapegoat right there. If you think the system is a failure, then you have to – for the sake of your future descendants work towards bringing that system of hegemony down. You will actually SAVE more lives of your future family members by acting now rather than letting things like this continue for centuries beyond. Those parents, if they know the system is wrong – they are selfish, but if they don’t then they have to be educated on that. Let me you remind you all of one thing. You can tax me, you can force me to slavery, you can beat and scarce me for life – but I will till the end of my days still fight for my rights as a human being. Your ideas of ‘’having no choice’’ is deteriorating your future family more than you realize. Humans were made to live as humans – not as animals or pets. I understand the parents’ situation – but no way in hell do I stand by their choice. You always have a choice! Just like those two here who chose to run away.

When I was growing up – I was taught three vital lessons which I was obligated to follow:
The 1st was that I was a Pukhtoon – in other words belonging to [and I’m not kidding] ’the greatest, bravest and most honourable people on earth’- and as a part of that ethnic environment – I had to maintain its remarkable reputation as best as I could + give an extra 100% more [mainly my fathers principle]. The 2nd lesson was that I was a Musulman. I was to believe in Khudai Talah and our Profet Mohammad (Pbuh). Period. No questions asked [Mainly my mother, heheh:]. My thirdlesson however derived from nothing else than common sense. I was taught that I should never point fingers at anyone – not one person, alive nor dead, was I allowed to point fingers at. The objectivity here was that if I pointed one finger at someone up front, I’d have three of my own fingers pointing back at me. This extraordinary morale was sprung neither of Islamic vocabulary, nor of our ethnic and patriotic beliefs. And quite honestly – it’s the best lesson I’ve been given of all three.

The conceptual extended message here is that ‘’you are not divine’’. You are not perfect, just like any other finite creature. In this case; you did not create that life, so taking it would be stealing. If you are a true Musulman, this note alone should trigger your curiosity to indulge your synopsis in pragmatic sense – because you are in fact fundamentally breaking God’s commandments by enacting on your foolish ‘moral’ endeavours. So ask yourself, are you following your beliefs correctly?

Hence, it is essential to point out that while you are still alive – you should never be too quick to predict your own tomorrow different than of those you so easily condemn today. You never know if you might find yourself in a like-wise situation yourself and one day suddenly be dawned upon that your best line of reasoning were not made for the ‘’Pukhtonwalis’’ ears to hear because of their ‘’code of honour’’. And before you know it- you’re smudged all over the place.

Anyway, if you do not have a monotheistic belief in your system, the rule still applies; You did not create that person, hence you are not entitled to decree that individuals existence. For that decree, we have God, we have Allah, we have Buddah, Jahve, mother nature, quantum physics and ‘what-not-you-believe-in’ to take that burden off your shoulders.
So relax and enjoy those 70/80 years of life you’ve been given to the extent of being happy. I’m sure the Lord himself doesn’t like sultry followers who do nothing but criticize His artistic creativity. In other words – Pukhtonwali or not – if you can’t bring common sense and logic to it – then maybe you should change it. Us humans constructed these ‘’codes of honour’’ so ideally we can and are allowed to change it. THAT is something you CAN change or [even] destroy – an individual’s life on the other hand is not in your right hand.

By the way – a last notice: I agree that the punishment existed before Taliban. But the whip lashing and stone throwing punishment originated from Islamic traditions. Feel free to deny this till you turn dry, but before the Islamic influence came with Arabian pilgrims – we used to live by the Indian Sanskrit literature later evolving to Avesta [Iranian Sanskrit] where we worshipped fire. The punishments and rituals that were practiced by Aryans were mostly of sacrifice for the deities– a completely different type of ethnical devotion than Pukhtonwali - so yes, the stone throwing relates its roots back to Islamic Sharia. The sword hacking on the other hand might date as far back as the Aryan era.

You don't know your pride unless you know your shame

what a awesome entry to the forum. welcome buddy 'n u may give up beating sense into these senseless Arab devotees. all u 'll get is nonsense after nonsense. language of a human should only be spoken with a human not some spineless mistake which people mistake for a human