Stoning to Death

[faye]

scimitar, you make it sound as though all sins were invented by farangis and then taken into the muslim societies and forced upon people there. get real!

[ScimitarXEdge]

scimitar, you make it sound as though all sins were invented by farangis and then taken into the muslim societies and forced upon people there. get real!

They're definitely endorsed by farangyan that I know for sure.

[faye]

statistics say that adultery is, in fact, prevalent in the west, i agree and i think it is shocking. men have even been finding through blood tests, that they are not fethers to the children they thought were theirs.
the fact, though, that mohammad gave laws against this, means that it was already a feasability within your own society. all humans have the same weaknesses, all made by the same creator.
i have said before that there are many things within my society that are not good but to blame the west for all of the muslim countries faults and foubles is ridiculous. like you are just innocent victims without the capacity to choose.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I have quite a different sociological understanding; I view things not from the fact something CAN exist, it would be foolhearty to argue that this is true. But whether something is Normative.

Immorality of various forms are NORMATIVE for Farangyan, although they may exist elsehwere, they're not necessarily Normative, the gradual expansion of certain practices and behaviors becoming normative is definitely fueled by various attempts by farangayan to remodel the society.

[faye]

what you call immorality though, apart from adultery, is different to what we call immorality. to my society women wearing bikinis and swimming where there are men is normal, my whole life. for you this is immoral.
when i went to iran and afghanistan in the seventies, already the men in those countries were getting their playboy magazines, as they showed me. they weren't being forced into that as they would have been blackmarket articles, at the time.
these things are not necessarily done to muslim societies by manipulation or force, which is what you keep insisting.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Well there , my point is proven. When something becomes a normative aspect of your society, it is no longer deemed immoral; which is precisely my point. As for the issue of blackmarket copies of Playboy, the fact that such things exist and are promoted to the masses in the first place, is manipulation in itself. After all you can't have a market unless you cultivate the idea that such things should be pursued. You're not holding a strong case here. Also the fact it is blackmarket proves my point about something being Normative.

[faye]

like i said, what to you is immoral is different to what i deem immoral. you need to concentrate so much on the physical body that i am suprised that you have time for your religious studies.
because you deem things immoral, to you they are, to many others, they aren't. that is why you are a muslim and i am not. that is your choice and this is mine. you seem to be so restricted in activities that all you do is watch videos, tv or go on the web. what a boring life.
you are apparently hooked on the inventions of the west, that you so disapprove of. ironic, isn't it?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Which again PROVES MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you have made this garbage normative, and hence deem it no longer immoral; this doesn't change the fact that it is immoral, it just means you people are so corrupt you see nothing wrong in the wrong.

And I dont care if you're not Muslim, I do care that you're trying pathetically to exonerate your role your culture has in spreading your putrid morals to other parts of the world. Keep it within your own borders, confiscate black market copies of whatever, jam your sattelite TV stations and keep it to yourselves.

[faye]

lucky me. sounds like you are bitterly jealous. poor boy, missing out on all that freedom.
enjoy your horror movies, lol.

[khushal]

Faye,
It does not matter what you think is immoral and what Scimitar thinks is immoral or anybody else. It is our creator who decides what is immoral. Human beings has an ego and arrogant nature that they forget they are capable of making mistakes like you are right now.

In Africa, it was normal for men to rape infants because they believed they are purified by this act. This act was not immoral in their society. But the reality is that action is immoral, I don't care how they grew up or if it is normal in their society, it is immoral and wrong.

In the US it was normal to own a black person as a slave. At the time it was not immoral but in reality it is and I don't care if those people grew up owning one.

In Britain, at one time it was normal for Scottish brides to spend the first night with English officers, they considered this as their right and this was not considered immoral. But again in reality this was immoral and I don't care what the English have to say about it.
I can go on and on with thousands of examples.

Today you think you swimming naked on the beach with kids walking around is normal and not immoral. The fact is that it is immoral and wrong. You may think it is OK because it is socially acceptable, but you are manipulated of thinking right is wrong and wrong is right.

[khushal]

Only when a Shari'ah system is in place is this practice condemable because it's no longer necessary. For right now it is necessary because we don't have a fully Islamic Government.

This was exactly my point to Shayista. If Sharia law was present these two individuals would have been saved. But since it is not, they have to follow the law of the land, and the law of the land is pashtunwali.

[faye]

i've just returned from a lovely swim, in my bikini, with the wind, sun and water against my flesh. such a lovely feeling. i like to get close to nature.
khushal, you just said it is the creator who decides what is immoral, then YOU told me i am immoral and wrong. so you are the creator now?
i am glad i am 'so called' manipulated into realising that nakedness does not necessarily equate to sex, which is where i believe you make a mistake. the native inhabitants of australia and many people around the world lived naked. the creator created them. like i have said before, they were not all racing around in a sexual frenzy, because of nudity.
you keep your morality in your muslim countries if you don't like the western beliefs. i am certain that you need the west more than it needs people like you and scimitar, sitting festering with disapproval and hatred, in our midst.

[faye]

Which again PROVES MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you have made this garbage normative, and hence deem it no longer immoral; this doesn't change the fact that it is immoral, it just means you people are so corrupt you see nothing wrong in the wrong.

And I dont care if you're not Muslim, I do care that you're trying pathetically to exonerate your role your culture has in spreading your putrid morals to other parts of the world. Keep it within your own borders, confiscate black market copies of whatever, jam your sattelite TV stations and keep it to yourselves.

and MY POINT is that some of the muslims want what the west has. that it is not forced or manipulated onto them!!!

[ScimitarXEdge]

lucky me. sounds like you are bitterly jealous. poor boy, missing out on all that freedom.
enjoy your horror movies, lol.

only problem is.....I don't view your ways as freedom, but rather slavery to illusion and dysfunctionality. you can keep it ....I hope one day your entire society becomes a living horror movie, you deserve no better.

[ScimitarXEdge]

and MY POINT is that some of the muslims want what the west has. that it is not forced or manipulated onto them!!!

Which makes your point patently false, because only someone who's had their state of reason completely warped would such dysfunctionality, which is what your shallow materialistic culture embodies.