Jinnah, an armchair politician

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Then you shouldn't have any problem with Millions of Pashtun's Preferring Being Pakistani . Any country that can't live side by side just because their skin color or race is different is bound to end up like Syria , Yemen , Libya . Iraq or Afghanistan .

I don't; but the fact is, it's not true ..you've already admitted it's indoctrination; this isn't genuine and this is why you still need to deal with issues like changing the names of provinces, because indoctrination only works some of the time.

[Peshawer_222]

He already told you.



Very simplistic view is that 'Pakistaniat conquers all'. If you've ever been to Sindh you can still see posters and paintings of nationalist organisations like 'Jeeay Sindh Mahaaz'. People from those areas are slowing going missing, go figure.
Sindhis as a minority also in my experience are much more cynical about Pakistan: they're not anti-Pakistan, however they have the added intelligence of a minority to be able to take criticism about their country and its horrible policies. This isn't something I see very often from the Urdu-speaking or Punjabi community. They're much too elite to care, and even if they do, their solution is always Fauji Aamriyat, not Jamhooriat.

Baloch, I mean... I'll be going to Balochistan soon maybe this winter or next year. All you need to do is go there and ask people what they think of Pakistan. As long as they're comfortable knowing that you're not working for the establishment, they'll tell you exactly what they think about Pak Fauj, CPEC, Sardars etc. They put themselves before the nation, and rightfully so... they're the most isolated ethnic group out of any other. That's why organisations like the BLA and people like Brahamdagh (who's not a member, but a nationalist) exist.

Point isn't to make Pakistan look bad, it's to highlight the scale of problems back home and acknowledge they exist.

Like i said its not perfect . It cant be perfect . If America only 30 years ago started treating blacks as equals than Pakistan can be given benefit of the doubt . You will always have a portion of Disgrunted people not satisfied with anything .

[Porus]

Like i said its not perfect . It cant be perfect . If America only 30 years ago started treating blacks as equals than Pakistan can be given benefit of the doubt . You will always have a portion of Disgrunted people not satisfied with anything .

You can be sure that the Americans thought the same way, that 'these Martin Luthers are just a bunch of disgruntled blacks who don't know what the white man has done for them'. Same is the attitude regarding liberals, nationalist Sindhis, Baloch etc. These 'few' are anti-Pakistan. We either ignore them, or kill them.

Not the solution dude. You need to have open dialogue if you're gonna create peace.

Senior Sindhi nationalist leader shot dead

Sindhi nationalist goes missing

Silencing voices is anti-democratic and an infringement on these people's rights.



If we do put them on TV, you'll see how anchors aggressively lash out at them. These are simply Baloch students... not militants, and they all categorically dismiss Pakistan as a fascist state

[Peshawer_222]

I don't; but the fact is, it's not true ..you've already admitted it's indoctrination; this isn't genuine and this is why you still need to deal with issues like changing the names of provinces, because indoctrination only works some of the time.

Most countries indoctrinate their people . Its not something unique . For millions it comes natural and for others it develops overtime . NWFP was changed because other provinces had names after their own people . Its not Rocket science . Pakistani's do tend to have more Nationalists than other countries for reasons i can't explain though . We tend to have alot of these suicidal nationalists too

[Peshawer_222]

You can be sure that the Americans thought the same way, that 'these Martin Luthers are just a bunch of disgruntled blacks who don't know what the white man has done for them'. Same is the attitude regarding liberals, nationalist Sindhis, Baloch etc. These 'few' are anti-Pakistan. We either ignore them, or kill them.

Not the solution dude. You need to have open dialogue if you're gonna create peace.

Senior Sindhi nationalist leader shot dead

Sindhi nationalist goes missing

Silencing voices is anti-democratic and an infringement on these people's rights.



If we do put them on TV, you'll see how anchors aggressively lash out at them. These are simply Baloch students... not militants, and they all categorically dismiss Pakistan as a fascist state

Cant disagree with you .

[kunatawar]

Pakistani's do tend to have more Nationalists than other countries for reasons i can't explain though .

pakistan has more nationalist types than the surrounding countries because its an unnatural recently created nation which forces the identity of 'pakistanyat' on all of its citizens to create one artificial "pakistani" identity and get rid of the local ones. The real resistance comes from the fact that 'pakistanyat' is just rebranded north indian muslim culture (think bihar/ UP) that is being forced on the locals who shouldn't have to deal with this crap (especially non desis like baloch, pashtun, dards, baltistanis etc..)

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Most countries indoctrinate their people . Its not something unique . For millions it

Tu quoque fallacy again

The fact others do it doesn't change That you admitted That the nationalist ardor is fabricated and thus unnatural/artificial....it's based on a lie in other words

[Peshawer_222]

Tu quoque fallacy again

The fact others do it doesn't change That you admitted That the nationalist ardor is fabricated and thus unnatural/artificial....it's based on a lie in other words

It works for us quite well .Why should I care if its natural or unnatural ? When you score a goal in football does it matter if it was a overhead kick or a tap in ? Your end result is always to score a goal and win no matter how those goals come by .

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

It works for us quite well .Why should I care if its natural or unnatural ? When you score a goal in football does it matter if it was a overhead kick or a tap in ? Your end result is always to score a goal and win no matter how those goals come by .

Because it demonstrates that your entire sense of identity is a farce and that the power structure uses that as a tool to exploit the people rather than serve . hence against their population's welfare and interests

[dawn]

He already told you.



Very simplistic view is that 'Pakistaniat conquers all'. If you've ever been to Sindh you can still see posters and paintings of nationalist organisations like 'Jeeay Sindh Mahaaz'. People from those areas are slowing going missing, go figure.
Sindhis as a minority also in my experience are much more cynical about Pakistan: they're not anti-Pakistan, however they have the added intelligence of a minority to be able to take criticism about their country and its horrible policies. This isn't something I see very often from the Urdu-speaking or Punjabi community. They're much too elite to care, and even if they do, their solution is always Fauji Aamriyat, not Jamhooriat.

Baloch, I mean... I'll be going to Balochistan soon maybe this winter or next year. All you need to do is go there and ask people what they think of Pakistan. As long as they're comfortable knowing that you're not working for the establishment, they'll tell you exactly what they think about Pak Fauj, CPEC, Sardars etc. They put themselves before the nation, and rightfully so... they're the most isolated ethnic group out of any other. That's why organisations like the BLA and people like Brahamdagh (who's not a member, but a nationalist) exist.

Point isn't to make Pakistan look bad, it's to highlight the scale of problems back home and acknowledge they exist.

Sindhis are not very bright, no offence intended. Any group of people who have allowed waderas to rule them to this date are dumb. All these sindhi nationalists parties are made up by waderas or people associated with them. I've never see them talk about how to get common sindhi their rights on land they plough for waderas. The educated lot among them sindhi hindus from trading castes unfortunately didn't convert and left Sindh after 1947. Sindhis in India are known as rich, educated elite while in Pakistan they are known piss poor peasants ruled by waderas.

Pakistan benefited waderas like these with huge tract of land. No wonder Sindh was quick to vote for Pakistan before anyone else because their leaders aka waderas knew what Nehru will do to them. And now PPP party of waderas rule them.

Baloch again same case, previous governments didn't develop Balochistan much instead they used to give royalties to few sardars to buy loyalty.

Another thing I've noticed is not many Sindhis move out despite being poorest people in Pakistan along with Baloch. You don't see many of them in foreign countries. Pakistan share of $20 billion remittances is dominated by punjabis, azad kashmiris, pathans and muhajirs. Even in Karachi now there are more pathans then sindhi.

Muhajirs only liked army rule under Musharraf. Not sure what you're smoking but muhajirs hate army for many operations done against them right through 80's, 90's and now.

[Karachi]

Sindhis are not very bright, no offence intended. Any group of people who have allowed waderas to rule them to this date are dumb. All these sindhi nationalists parties are made up by waderas or people associated with them. I've never see them talk about how to get common sindhi their rights on land they plough for waderas. The educated lot among them sindhi hindus from trading castes unfortunately didn't convert and left Sindh after 1947. Sindhis in India are known as rich, educated elite while in Pakistan they are known piss poor peasants ruled by waderas.

Pakistan benefited waderas like these with huge tract of land. No wonder Sindh was quick to vote for Pakistan before anyone else because their leaders aka waderas knew what Nehru will do to them. And now PPP party of waderas rule them.

Baloch again same case, previous governments didn't develop Balochistan much instead they used to give royalties to few sardars to buy loyalty.

Another thing I've noticed is not many Sindhis move out despite being poorest people in Pakistan along with Baloch. You don't see many of them in foreign countries. Pakistan share of $20 billion remittances is dominated by punjabis, azad kashmiris, pathans and muhajirs. Even in Karachi now there are more pathans then sindhi.

Muhajirs only liked army rule under Musharraf. Not sure what you're smoking but muhajirs hate army for many operations done against them right through 80's, 90's and now.

all the bright sindhis went to India in 47, they are doing great things there mainly in business, actually the current Sindhi population is heavily mixed with Baloch and the baloch culture has clearly penetrated in Sindhis now

[Elite Pakhtun]

It's not as easy as that. Jinnah's whole campaign was initially 'Muslims in danger', later became changed to Islam in danger. In order to safeguard Islam he suggested to create Pakistan, which was supposed to be a fortress of Islam. At the end of the day, a Pakistani basically means being Muslim; Indian or Afghan origin. I being from Punjab am the former.

Sure that may have been his campaign, but historical evidence suggests that he had a secular nation in mind as a homeland for muslims in the subcontinent. Yes pakistani means being Muslim.

I didn't say Punjabi Muslims didn't vote for the league, I said Muslim league did not win a clear majority, they ended up making a coalition government in the 1946 election between the Congress, Akalis and the Unionist Party. Muslim league's bases were in Sindh and Bengal; one of which is no longer with us anymore.

No, Muslim league didn't make a coalition. They won initially, but congress, dal sc*m, and unionists formed a coalition. Muslim League wasn't part of this coalition. Out of 175 seats, muslim league won 73. They won other provinces as you pointed out, and started the process of separating.

But for him to campaign for the rights of Muslims by separating them from their historical kin, and playing into the same communal politics that the British had set the foundations of their imperialism on, was a **** move on Jinnah's part.

Hardly a bitch move. He wasn't the pioneer of a muslim state. He just got the job done. Muslims demanded separation, he managed to make it happen. He was also not wrong... I still maintain separation would still be better than a unified state.

He should've stood by the Muslims as one of many secular Muslims, like Abul Kalam and Bacha Khan.

How did he not stand by muslims? Just because he didn't want to live like the commoner?

, then clearly he cared less. Gandhi did it. Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan did it. They dressed humbly, one of them is revered as the symbol of peace for generations to come, the other is still respected by many Afghans and Indians.

No. People like Ataturk didn't do this relinquish possessions and live with the poor thing, yet they're thought to have cared for their people. There's probably 1000s who lived this poor life and failed in their political goals.

[Elite Pakhtun]

all the bright sindhis went to India in 47

There are bright Sindhis? You learn something new everyday.

[dawn]

In real life the only anti-Jinnah people I've met were religious ones who didn't like his life style. On social media pro-Pakistanis yet anti-Jinnah tend to be those who think he could have made better deal. Like getting all of IoK if he gave order to Paki army to capture it before Indian forces could move. Another being some majority muslim districts in east punjab like Gurdaspur went to India. He was more interested in plight of muhajirs while Indian army was busy capturing as many states as possible. Rehmat Ali who came up with name of Pakistan and idea was not happy with Jinnah Pakistan, he was put in jail and deported back to UK where he died.

[Elite Pakhtun]

I don't love Ahmad Shah ....like AT ALL, he was a treacherous leader.

He greatly advanced the extent of the pakhtun race. His only mistake was not nipping the sikh problem in the bud.