Who were the Ormuri?

[Toramana]

Other Barakis/Ormaris are in Ormar Miana, Ormar Payan, and Ormar Balla towns near Peshawar. I have many friends from Ormars/Barakis. They are first and foremost Pashtuns.

Some authorities on Pashtun ethnogenesis say many other Pashtun tribes branched from Barakis e.g. Karlanris.

[Baraki]

Other Barakis/Ormaris are in Ormar Miana, Ormar Payan, and Ormar Balla towns near Peshawar. I have many friends from Ormars/Barakis. They are first and foremost Pashtuns.

Some authorities on Pashtun ethnogenesis say many other Pashtun tribes branched from Barakis e.g. Karlanris.

Thank you. I am very interested to know if there is an validity in the Barakzai / Baraki theory in which they have a common ancestor or descent.

[khushal]

I ran into this article:

http://tribune.com.pk/story/302799/o...-of-militancy/


Ormuri: The silent victim of militancy

KARACHI:
The term ‘collateral damage’ is normally applied to the loss of human life during war; it may now have to expand to include language.

When a military operation was launched in South Waziristan, Ormuri – the native language of the Burki people – also came under assault. Ormuri speakers are now scattered around the country and the language is on the brink of extinction.
The language flourished in Kaniguram, a mountainous valley in South Waziristan – its only habitat on earth. An estimated population of about 10,000 Ormuri speakers lived in Kaniguram before they migrated to different parts of the country. Today, Burki tribesmen are spread in insignificant numbers in Lahore, Peshawar, Bannu and Kaniguram, and in Logar and Paktia in Afghanistan. However, most have adopted the dominant languages of their new ports, such as Pashto, Urdu and Punjabi.

Munawwar Burki, a criminology student at the University of Karachi who hails from the valley, describes the language as the east Iranian sister dialect of Pashto and Balochi, and says that it was spoken by the Burki people living alongside the Pushto-speaking Mehsuds. It is this proximity with the Pashtuns that has had a deep impact on Ormuri culture, which borrows from the Pakhtunwali code of conduct and had adopted many cultural rituals.

Rozi Khan Burki is one of the few people who have carried out detailed research on the language. In his book written purely in Ormuri, he claims that the similarities between Pashtun and Ormuri people persist because Ormur was the grandson of Qasi Abdur Rasheed – the forefather of all Pashtun tribes. “They are originally Pashtuns who migrated in 1025 to Kaniguram from Logar, Afghanistan. Their language was initially known as ‘Burgista’ but now it has become Ormuri,” he said.

His account of the language’s history links it to Mehmood Ghaznavi. When Mehmood Ghaznavi was launching his last assault on India, he took a group of 3,000 Burkis from Afghanistan. Those Burkis extinguished the fire-circle for protection, set up by Hindus around the Somnath Temple that consequently helped Ghaznavi conquer the temple and India. It is this story that lends the Burki people their name Ormuri – the fire extinguishers.

Rozi Khan says that although the loss of the language will not affect the people economically, it will kill oral history as well as Ormuri customs and traditions. “Different plants will lose their names and local herbal medicines will be lost. Some birds and animals will become nameless and some proverbs, old sayings and myths will die out,” he explains.

After writing an Ormuri book, Rozi Khan Burki also started a campaign to bring together people who can write poetry in Ormuri – about 15 people. But the efforts were marred by unrest in the valley. “It is now impossible for me to gather all internally displaced poets and people who were working on the language”, said Khan.

Munawwar Burki stresses that efforts must be stepped up to save the language before it completely vanishes. As the speakers move out, they adopt dominant languages of their new ports. He said that constant war forced almost everyone to move out of Kaniguram: “I think right now there is not a soul left in Kaniguram; not even a single dog.”

Thus his efforts are focussed on uniting the community in Karachi, where most of the displaced from Kaniguram came to settle. But due to the fact that all Ormuri people settled independently, they are scattered and difficult to trace. Families live largely in Sohrab Goth, Landhi, Sultanabad, Lyari Bypass, Kwari Colony, Banaras and Baldia Town. “Since the speakers have no official community or society where they can live together and get a chance to speak in their mother tongue, they are losing the language in bits and pieces on a daily basis,” he says with much regret.

The local community in the city has risen to the threat facing their heritage. Munawwar Burki started running an organization for the welfare of Burki tribesmen in Karachi and has already gathered figures of the remnants in the city – around 1,000 families out of which roughly 500 can speak Ormuri. Also Shah Mehmood Burki adds that the female members of Burki families continue speaking in Ormuri which gives hope that the language will be passed on to the next generation.

[khushal]

[MENTION=17967]Baraki[/MENTION],
You or someone you know should create a website where hopefully other Baraki/Ormuri from other parts of the world can somehow come together on the website and try to preserve the language and culture.

[Kushan Prince]

(to make the reading easier I make spaces between my text)
Can you please show me what was wrong in my comment? Where did I not say that the Ormuris specially in the tribal regions are not Pashtunized? I even said that once they were much more widerspreaden than today. They even lived in the Peshawar valley as some still do and they are not Pashtunized. Some groups like the Baraki Baraks are identifying themselves with Farsiwans and they call their own language ''Sucha'' and they neither really speak anymore Burki nor Pashtu. I am not talking about the ''old'' days but about the ''modern'' days. But I support your well-explained thesis on Pashtuns that they are people of different origins coming together due political reasons or common life-style or a common enemy (must be happened in the middle-age) and adoptet the language of the leading and dominant group.

Our region was a bridge of west to east for many different people. That explains why we have some tribes that also appearing in name and sometimes in phenotypes among non-Pashtuns. Let´s take the Kakar tribe. There are original tribes from Peshawar valley that are called Gakkar, Gakhars or Gajjars. Many of them are Muslims, some are Hindus and a small part other non-Hindu and non-Muslim. Many Pashtuns on the eastern side of the Durand are the original non-Pashtun population who became Pashtunized due Durani imperial expension. The Ghilzai Pashtuns we have as well. The Hotak Pashtuns and many other tribes original non-Pashtuns but today Pashtunized to Pashtuns. To deepen our perspective on this issue it is just enough to look on our traditional myths and the fact that we have so much and many tribes and all have different names and these tribes have no common interests or ideals or a common understanding of being Pashtun because of the different origins they claim to have and indeed have.

In historical accounts not halfly of them considered as Afghan (in its historical meaning) but only the Durranis while for example the Ghalzai confederancy was just called Khalji. Babar and Ibn Batuta called them even Turks. Just take even the words ''zai'' and ''khil'' as an easy example. Both are original non-Pashtu as Loya Jirga (Mongol-Turk origin). In my turkish private university three of my profs have names with ending ''soy''. I asked them how it comes because in Pashtu we have zai and both groups live so far from eachother. They said in Turkish it means ''descendent'' like Dari sada. My own professor´s name is Aksoy teaching in political science, philosophy and history. Then there is another word the Pashtu word ''khil'' drives from. It is called ''oghul'' or in urban societies as ogly. The ancient Turkish word was ''q´ula''. We Pashtuns have today ''khil'' in the pashtunized form. All these facts have reached us somehow and we did not invented them by our own.

People like Kushan are living in a fantasy world where they are riding on flying horses, they are heroes and whatever. He thinks being a Pashtun is caused by his gens but he doesn´t know that Gens have nothing to do with being a Pashtun, Paki, Arab, Iranian or whatever. Only the language and culture. Many Pashtuns in American can not speak a word Pashtu, marrying into other people´s family who hail from other ethnic stock and they get more and more de-Pashtunized yet this guy Kushan and his friends want to tell us that Panjabi-speaking Imran Khan is a Pashtun or his cousins and cousines in LA. One generation of Khan and his kids will be the new Pakistani Salman Khan. He doesn´t know that if Pashtuns gens are special than he might be first a Turk (the qilding bilding ones lol) in origin before being a Pashtun. Revolution have given a very good explanation of it that Gens has nothing to do with being ethnical what we are. In 100 years all those pro-Pakistani ''Pashtuns'' will be ''historically'' Pashtuns but ethnical Panjabis like the Ormuris are ethnical Ormuris but their cultural identity is not.

Ps: what has Pir Roshan Baba´s family biography to do with the Ormuris as a whole??

People like Kushan are living in a fantasy world where they are riding on flying horses, they are heroes and whatever. He thinks being a Pashtun is caused by his gens but he doesn´t know that Gens have nothing to do with being a Pashtun, Paki, Arab, Iranian or whatever. Only the language and culture. Many Pashtuns in American can not speak a word Pashtu, marrying into other people´s family who hail from other ethnic stock and they get more and more de-Pashtunized yet this guy Kushan and his friends want to tell us that Panjabi-speaking Imran Khan is a Pashtun or his cousins and cousines in LA. One generation of Khan and his kids will be the new Pakistani Salman Khan. He doesn´t know that if Pashtuns gens are special than he might be first a Turk (the qilding bilding ones lol) in origin before being a Pashtun. Revolution have given a very good explanation of it that Gens has nothing to do with being ethnical what we are. In 100 years all those pro-Pakistani ''Pashtuns'' will be ''historically'' Pashtuns but ethnical Panjabis like the Ormuris are ethnical Ormuris but their cultural identity is not.

Your living a lie if you believe in order to be a pashtun you have to speak pashto. Pashtun culture and identity is too strong for an average bloke like yourself to be considered one. Pashtun identify and ancestry is not based on language and culture but TRIBAL IDENTITY. If you belong to a Pashtun tribe, you are pashtun, if you don't then you don't. Imran Khan has every right to claim himself as a pashtun because both his parents belong to Afghan tribes. Tajiks like you have no identity so you base tajik identity on language and think you are persians despite being shunned and discriminated by iranians numerous times so you want to apply the same thing to us.

Just think about it, if pashtun identify was solely based on language and culture, then we would have hazara looking pashtuns, indian looking and so forth and it would be a disaster. But its pointless explaining this to you since your'e a troll.

[Baraki]

@Baraki,
You or someone you know should create a website where hopefully other Baraki/Ormuri from other parts of the world can somehow come together on the website and try to preserve the language and culture.

[MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION] Our culture is very Pashtun-centric, actually. Language yes, I hope we can keep, I know it's dying at a very fast rate.. I am glad I was taught it along with Pashto and Urdu, but I notice a big problem (since my Ormur side of the the family lived in a basti in Jalandhar since 1600-1700s and went to Pakistan @ Partition) most of these the kids my age do not speak Ormuri, most of them don't even speak Pashto since most of their fathers and mothers grew up in Punjab. some of them that are growing up in Canada don't even speak Urdu, only english. I am amazed that we kept the language for about 400 years in India and lost in in THIS generation. I know, insha'Allah I will be teaching my kids Ormuri, I think this will be a tough task because I am not the most fluent speaker and I doubt I will marry a Burki/Baraki but more likely a different Pashtun, I'd rather a Pashto speaking non-Ormuri wife than a Punjabi-Speaking Pakistani Burki.

Btw, Ormuri is often called Chur Mur (crumpled) because of how it sounds, lol.

[Baraki]

Your living a lie if you believe in order to be a pashtun you have to speak pashto. Pashtun culture and identity is too strong for an average bloke like yourself to be considered one. Pashtun identify and ancestry is not based on language and culture but TRIBAL IDENTITY. If you belong to a Pashtun tribe, you are pashtun, if you don't then you don't. Imran Khan has every right to claim himself as a pashtun because both his parents belong to Afghan tribes. Tajiks like you have no identity so you base tajik identity on language and think you are persians despite being shunned and discriminated by iranians numerous times so you want to apply the same thing to us.

Just think about it, if pashtun identify was solely based on language and culture, then we would have hazara looking pashtuns, indian looking and so forth and it would be a disaster. But its pointless explaining this to you since your'e a troll.

Agreed 100%, Imran Khan was used as an example, and I feel like he stands for everything Pashtuns do. He wants honesty, accountability, he is hospitable and courageous. He has a Niazi father and Ormur Mother, he does not speak Pashto but has the Pashtun identity and genetics and culture.

[Tjanaparh]

Dear Baraki, maybe it is in your hands to deepen the knowledge of Ormuri to same as much as You can, would be a serious task I think.
What about creating for example a method of learning it ?
Or poetry..?!

[Baraki]

Dear Baraki, maybe it is in your hands to deepen the knowledge of Ormuri to same as much as You can, would be a serious task I think.
What about creating for example a method of learning it ?
Or poetry..?!

You guys are inspiring me. Does anyone know if there is an Ormur to English dictionary? Maybe that is something I can work on.

[Tjanaparh]

Only thing I found is the book I posted in this theme. Have a llok on it! I suppose You knowledge will be deeper, but maybe it can be a help on some issues ??

[Baraki]

Only thing I found is the book I posted in this theme. Have a llok on it! I suppose You knowledge will be deeper, but maybe it can be a help on some issues ??

Very interesting. Thanks for the link. I am really worried about the loss of the language. Kaniguram was a Ormuri safe-haven before operation Rah e Nijat. I think there might still be a Ormuri language base in Lahore now that I think of it. Zaman Park had a very large Burki population, my father grew up there and he hated it because it was apparently a very racist community that only let Pashtuns (called Pathans by this time unfortunately) in and only Burkis buy property. I have no doubt there are Ormuri speaking peoples left in Zaman Park, I will definitely investigate on my next visit to Pakistan.

[Bost Bastan News]

Your living a lie if you believe in order to be a pashtun you have to speak pashto. Pashtun culture and identity is too strong for an average bloke like yourself to be considered one. Pashtun identify and ancestry is not based on language and culture but TRIBAL IDENTITY. If you belong to a Pashtun tribe, you are pashtun, if you don't then you don't. Imran Khan has every right to claim himself as a pashtun because both his parents belong to Afghan tribes. Tajiks like you have no identity so you base tajik identity on language and think you are persians despite being shunned and discriminated by iranians numerous times so you want to apply the same thing to us.

Just think about it, if pashtun identify was solely based on language and culture, then we would have hazara looking pashtuns, indian looking and so forth and it would be a disaster. But its pointless explaining this to you since your'e a troll.

lol losing your language and culture means becoming detribalized. You can ask all those ''Pashtuns'' who give their daughters or sons to non-Pashtuns. Ask Dostum, Ismail Khan, Atta, Qanuni, ... go please, ask, if their kids do understand themselves as Pashtuns. Aks majority of Pashtuns in the west, specially the girls if its important for them? Stop fooling yourself. All over the world culture and language is the only factors of having an Identity and Pashtuns are not an exception. Find in India Pashtuns who settled there 500years ago. Do you know that majority of Tarzi family are living in Turkey and are proud Turks? Have you not met ''Pashtuns'' with a clear Pashtun tribal identity yet claiming being Tajik or Hazara? If not then please come to Kabul. I will take you to Karti parwan and other regions. You guy are blinded by your fake nationalism.

[Baraki]

lol losing your language and culture means becoming detribalized. You can ask all those ''Pashtuns'' who give their daughters or sons to non-Pashtuns. Ask Dostum, Ismail Khan, Atta, Qanuni, ... go please, ask, if their kids do understand themselves as Pashtuns. Aks majority of Pashtuns in the west, specially the girls if its important for them? Stop fooling yourself. All over the world culture and language is the only factors of having an Identity and Pashtuns are not an exception. Find in India Pashtuns who settled there 500years ago. Do you know that majority of Tarzi family are living in Turkey and are proud Turks? Have you not met ''Pashtuns'' with a clear Pashtun tribal identity yet claiming being Tajik or Hazara? If not then please come to Kabul. I will take you to Karti parwan and other regions. You guy are blinded by your fake nationalism.

Actually my family has married into non-Pashto speaking pashtuns who are proud of their pashtun ancestry and strive to maintain the positive qualities of our people. They are hospitable and follow the tenants of pashtunwali while being hindko speakers. These people identify as pashtun and in my book, they are 100% pashtun. I know many punjabi 'pathans' and girls too like you say, and they say they are glad they are 'pathan' and they will marry a 'pathan' (even though i hate that word, it is what they are taught). Actually, i am also friends with a older woman who is from Mardan but she was raised there as her father got land there even though he was punjabi. She is a Rajput and fluent in pashto, she does not claim to be pashtun.. I definitely do not agree with you. Imran khan is a pashtun because of a) his lineage and b) his identity, the language is the final piece of the puzzle. Shahrukh Khan, not as much.. when I see him and how he acts I can't tell right away even though I have a very got Pakhtun Radar lol

[Baraki]

Yes, Mr. Vodkazai

Vodkazai? idk is that an insult or something because I am disagreeing with you?

[Tjanaparh]

Vodkazai? idk is that an insult or something because I am disagreeing with you?

I think there is another user with such name, so maybe he thinks you are related to this user.