Who were the Ormuri?

[Kushan Prince]

You're confusing ethnicity with Genetic Heritage. Those are two different vectors which are often linearly independent (i.e. not dependent on each other).There are groups in Central Asia who currently speak a Turkic language and are ethnically Turkic who have a predominance of R1a

Lots of ethnic groups have a predominance of R1a Haplogroups that are not even Pashtun, ethnicity and Genetic heritage are not the same thing. Your Haplogroup has very little to do with your ethnicity.

and also 77% ....that means 23% do NOT have that Haplogroup, That's the EXACT opposite of Homogeneous even on the genetic scale.

I think the issue is many people like yourself don't actually Understand what any of this stuff represents and what it signifies. Hence you think an R1a Haplogroup means having the same ETHNIC origin.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

Jump down to Turkic Speakers and R1a.

This pretty much shoots holes in the hypothesis that R1a is an indication of ethnic homogeneity

Those turks you're talking about TURKIZED iranians. When the turks from altai invaded they shaped up the population culturally like adopting new languages, kind of like tajiks who adopted farsi. Most turkic people are eurasian and that R1a you talk about must be from a paternal line since interracial marriage between turks and eastern iranians was common. I mean look at kurds, they belong to a wide variety of halpogroups which is why they are considered heterogenous because they don't all have one common origin. Pashtuns on the other hand are a tribal people and tribes are nothing more then just extended families so at the end all the people belonging to that one tribe will have one common origin.

Pashtuns are homogenous period.

[pashtanajan]

Everyone is mixed! Furthermore, there is no such thing as racial purity because we're all of the same race according to science. Only a small percentage of our dna shows that we're different from other humans. Dog breeds show a higher percentage of genetic dissimilarities than humans because humans are actually just one breed.

[Kushan Prince]

I don't get what you mean by belittling Pashtuns, ...Pashtuns are mixed, People are mixed ....that's an agreed upon Consensus in science. Not sure what being mixed has to do with belittling.

If you mean I'm calling Pashtun-centrists on their bull****, you bet I am. It's time we exposes the lies we're taught and embrace reality. However there's no fault in being mixed, 77% R1a implies 23% NON-R1a ....that's a MIXTURE.

You've belittled pashtuns on here countless times by associating bacha bazi with them even knowing its a common tajik practise. You even called pashtuns deviant beings and say how all pashtun men can't hold their sexual urges despite not having any proof to back up you're barking.

But thats another topic

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Those turks you're talking about TURKIZED iranians. When the turks from altai invaded they shaped up the population culturally like adopting new languages, kind of like tajiks who adopted farsi. Most turkic people are eurasian and that R1a you talk about must be from a paternal line since interracial marriage between turks and eastern iranians was common. I mean look at kurds, they belong to a wide variety of halpogroups which is why they are considered heterogenous because they don't all have one common origin. Pashtuns on the other hand are a tribal people and tribes are nothing more then just extended families so at the end all the people belonging to that one tribe will have one common origin.

Pashtuns are homogenous period.

Hence you just disproved the homogeneity hypothesis. Pashtuns come from different origins and they just mixed together.

77% + 23%= 100% mixed, even in terms of genetics.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

But thats another topic

exactly, irrelevant

[RevolutionThroughReason]

oh and Kurds are also tribal people. the only thing that predominates is DIFFERENT ethncities with R1a one mixed together to make the Pashtuns.

[pashtanajan]

Aryan isn't a race. Aryan just meant noble. Iran changed it's name to Iran during ww2 to increase ties with Germany. Most Iranians show a lot of turkic admixture... which I find rather ironic since Iranians despise Turks. Iranians are actually more genetically diverse than Pashtuns and Tajiks.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

well somewhere around 40% of Iranians are of Turkic ethnicities, whether Azeri, Qashqai or Turkmen (and smaller Turkic groups)

[Tjanaparh]

Concerning genetics labeling to such simplicities can be avoided.
First of all even within the R1a group differences can be made, so there can be done research( or perhaps there is) how much is the divvergence of the R1a group within Pashtuns and its relation to other populations.
Second, even if in our societies ethnicity is given acording to the father (at least I understood that Pashtuns have same way as us this kind of thinking (please correct me if I missundeerstood it)), the Y-chromosome is not the only factor influencing genetics, neither is only the mtDNA.

But Kushan is in an extnt right on Central Asians, because even the very turkified peoples have even in their folklore the description of their non Turkic origins.
That is concerning for example Kyrghyz.

What must be also considered that Turkic tribes how they arrived in Central Asia were allready mixed and maybe were mixed from the begining of their existance.

I have no big knowledge on that, but I think there are archeological findings that show this.

For instance in a Turkic language like Yakut, that is isolated not only from other Turkic speakers but also from Iranic speakers there is a word like "Dukhtar" (I don'T remember if they use it for Daughter or simply Girl), I think that indicates some ancient contact ?!

The problem with eastern Iranians is that many of them were really assimilated and much knowledge about them disappeared.

Concerning non being mixed, really few people on the earth are not mixed.
Maybe the people of the Sentinel island are ? (By the way thank You Karachi for the precious info on these islands).
Genetic studies are good for that, to understand better that context and compare folklore, linguistics and genetics.
And surely the results are not always the expected ones.

[pashtanajan]

I suggest you guys all read this article: A "Persian" Iran?: Challenging the Aryan Myth and Persian Ethnocentrism

http://ajammc.com/2012/05/18/a-persian-iran-challenging-the-aryan-myth-and-persian-ethnocentrism/

[Tjanaparh]

I don't know what happened, but this "white black" theme is really annoying.
All that things should serve only to understand things that may bbe forgotten or not fully understood and to make history more objective, but not to be proud of.
To your info, I am quiet white even for my own country, so that people back home mistake me for a foreigner often or say that I am the example of the real pure Armenian how we were 1000s years before, also an obsession. What difference is there to be whiter ?
As if there is a shame to be who you are today, white, black, brown or whatever, its a colour nothing more.
This colour superiority is really the bottom of a persons development.

[pashtanajan]

I don't know what happened, but this "white black" theme is really annoying.
All that things should serve only to understand things that may bbe forgotten or not fully understood and to make history more objective, but not to be proud of.
To your info, I am quiet white even for my own country, so that people back home mistake me for a foreigner often or say that I am the example of the real pure Armenian how we were 1000s years before, also an obsession. What difference is there to be whiter ?
As if there is a shame to be who you are today, white, black, brown or whatever, its a colour nothing more.
This colour superiority is really the bottom of a persons development.

I agree. I too am quite 'white' and can pass in many areas and parts of Europe. My lighter skin has not given me anything valuable in life other than a greater risk of catching melanomas and sunburns. This absurd obsession with skin-tones is a relic of colonialism.

[Tjanaparh]

I agree. I too am quite 'white' and can pass in many areas and parts of Europe. My lighter skin has not given me anything valuable in life. This absurd obsession with skin-tones is a relic of colonialism.

That is true. At least for those places where Europeans have been for sure.
I knew a girl from Peru who always told me how glad her grandmother were that her mother had lighter skin than her sisters and could pass for a Spanish.
That is really sad.
It is actually the colonial people who should be ashamed of themselves.


If I may reask my question. Are there any recordings of Ormuri, lets say poetry ?

[pashtanajan]

Come one, please leave this theme out of your insults. Lets stay on the Ormuri origin, linguistics...

Maybe You can compare the data I posted with Pashto or know better literature on the theme ?

I read some of the text and some of the words I found are also used in Pashto. I can see that both Pashto and Ormuri are related.

For 'and' they use 'aw', similar to Pashto.
Kaka, Baba, Wakht, Qawm and many other basic words that they use are also found in Pashto.

Ormuri seems to share a lot of words with Farsi as well.

[Tjanaparh]

Where can I see Ormuri words and phrases?

I posted a book above, have a look.
There are some data collected from some russian liguist .