Who were the Ormuri?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

But Kushan is in an extnt right on Central Asians, because even the very turkified peoples have even in their folklore the description of their non Turkic origins.
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Kushan's claim is that Pashtuns are not ethnically Heterogeneous in origins because they share a predominance of R1a.

This is actually directly contrary to your claim about Turkified Iranians, this means that R1a has less to do with ethnicity and more to do with Genetic Hertage.

If you carefully read Kushan's statements, you'll see YOu actually refute his hypothesis about Pashtuns.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Ok so Tsanjpareh confirms that Pashtuns are ethnically mixed with different ethnic groups which carry R1a

Pashtanajan confirms that Pashtuns are ethnically mixed despite a predominance of R1a

I confirm that Pashtuns are of ethnically mixed origins despite a predominance of R1a

I'm not sure why Kushan has a hard time grasping this difference between ethnicity and Haplotype and what it means to be a mixture?

What's your hurdle exactly Kushan?

[Admin Khan]

Are there any samples of Ormuri language? I'd like to hear how it sounds. My apologies to Pashtanajan if I'm derailing her thread.

[khushal]

^^^Tjanaprah have posted a book that has many Ormuri words.

I've searched throughout the internet for the so-called dialect of Sucha and I cannot find any information on it.

Sucha means pure. He is trying to push the narrative that Ormuris are pure farsiwan for what ever reason I do not know.

[khushal]

I believe the Karlanis and Baitanis are not originally Pashtuns, but Sarbans are. But Ormuris are not Sarbans, this was forged.

What makes you think that Sarbans are original pashtuns?

[pashtanajan]

Are there any samples of Ormuri language? I'd like to hear how it sounds. My apologies to Pashtanajan if I'm derailing her thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4dwGZaoIBY

It sounds kind of familiar.

P.S: How come videos can't be shown on threads anymore?

[Admin Khan]

It sounds kind of familiar.

P.S: How come videos can't be shown on threads anymore?

Are you trying to hack the site or something?! Ha.

Just paste the link alone, and it automatically renders after a while.

[pashtanajan]

Are you trying to hack the site or something?! Ha.

Just paste the link alone, and it automatically renders after a while.

Hahaha. No I tried do something earlier with a video and it worked, i.e. the video showed up. So I was trying to do it in this thread too, but it seems like I failed. Haha.

[Admin Khan]

Sounds like Turkish x Pashto x Dari

[Kushan Prince]

Hahaha. No I tried do something earlier with a video and it worked, i.e. the video showed up. So I was trying to do it in this thread too, but it seems like I failed. Haha.

Remove the https along with the dash and it will work.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

What makes you think that Sarbans are original pashtuns?

I guess because someone has to be lol

[Bost Bastan News]

MOst of you , especially this Bostan fellow, have no idea what they're talking about. You're just spewing things you found through the internet without any real analysis and examination.

Khushal's statement is the most accurate, they ARE Pashtunized, the claim that they're Sarban Pashtuns seems to be recently invented claim by Pashtun nationalists. They're neither Farsiwan nor Pashtun, but in the old days some people claimed them as "Farsiwan" because they didn't traditionally speak Pashto.

Ormuris are NOT Turk, the story relating the to Turks is some narrative that Sultan Mahmud Ghaznawi imported them from Yemen during his rule and Ghaznawids were Saljuk Turks. This is probably false though since Burki is Indo-Iranian and not Semitic and there are no native Indo-Iranian language speakers in Yemen.

What's interesting about the Ormuris is that their "Pashtunization" is still in transition, meaning that while they have by in large adopted Pashtun culture and to some degree are being regarded as Pashtuns, they're still known as a distinct ethnic identity.


What does this imply? That there are definite "holes" n the Homogeneous Hypothesis of Pashtun origins i.e. the claim that Pashtuns have all come from a singular source and gives credence to the Heterogeneous origins of Pashtuns, the hypothesis that Pashtuns are really the result of an AMALGAMATION of different ethnic groups who were absorbed into the Tribal spectrum OVER different periods of time.

I believe the Karlanis and Baitanis are not originally Pashtuns, but Sarbans are. But Ormuris are not Sarbans, this was forged.

(to make the reading easier I make spaces between my text)
Can you please show me what was wrong in my comment? Where did I not say that the Ormuris specially in the tribal regions are not Pashtunized? I even said that once they were much more widerspreaden than today. They even lived in the Peshawar valley as some still do and they are not Pashtunized. Some groups like the Baraki Baraks are identifying themselves with Farsiwans and they call their own language ''Sucha'' and they neither really speak anymore Burki nor Pashtu. I am not talking about the ''old'' days but about the ''modern'' days. But I support your well-explained thesis on Pashtuns that they are people of different origins coming together due political reasons or common life-style or a common enemy (must be happened in the middle-age) and adoptet the language of the leading and dominant group.

Our region was a bridge of west to east for many different people. That explains why we have some tribes that also appearing in name and sometimes in phenotypes among non-Pashtuns. Let´s take the Kakar tribe. There are original tribes from Peshawar valley that are called Gakkar, Gakhars or Gajjars. Many of them are Muslims, some are Hindus and a small part other non-Hindu and non-Muslim. Many Pashtuns on the eastern side of the Durand are the original non-Pashtun population who became Pashtunized due Durani imperial expension. The Ghilzai Pashtuns we have as well. The Hotak Pashtuns and many other tribes original non-Pashtuns but today Pashtunized to Pashtuns. To deepen our perspective on this issue it is just enough to look on our traditional myths and the fact that we have so much and many tribes and all have different names and these tribes have no common interests or ideals or a common understanding of being Pashtun because of the different origins they claim to have and indeed have.

In historical accounts not halfly of them considered as Afghan (in its historical meaning) but only the Durranis while for example the Ghalzai confederancy was just called Khalji. Babar and Ibn Batuta called them even Turks. Just take even the words ''zai'' and ''khil'' as an easy example. Both are original non-Pashtu as Loya Jirga (Mongol-Turk origin). In my turkish private university three of my profs have names with ending ''soy''. I asked them how it comes because in Pashtu we have zai and both groups live so far from eachother. They said in Turkish it means ''descendent'' like Dari sada. My own professor´s name is Aksoy teaching in political science, philosophy and history. Then there is another word the Pashtu word ''khil'' drives from. It is called ''oghul'' or in urban societies as ogly. The ancient Turkish word was ''q´ula''. We Pashtuns have today ''khil'' in the pashtunized form. All these facts have reached us somehow and we did not invented them by our own.

People like Kushan are living in a fantasy world where they are riding on flying horses, they are heroes and whatever. He thinks being a Pashtun is caused by his gens but he doesn´t know that Gens have nothing to do with being a Pashtun, Paki, Arab, Iranian or whatever. Only the language and culture. Many Pashtuns in American can not speak a word Pashtu, marrying into other people´s family who hail from other ethnic stock and they get more and more de-Pashtunized yet this guy Kushan and his friends want to tell us that Panjabi-speaking Imran Khan is a Pashtun or his cousins and cousines in LA. One generation of Khan and his kids will be the new Pakistani Salman Khan. He doesn´t know that if Pashtuns gens are special than he might be first a Turk (the qilding bilding ones lol) in origin before being a Pashtun. Revolution have given a very good explanation of it that Gens has nothing to do with being ethnical what we are. In 100 years all those pro-Pakistani ''Pashtuns'' will be ''historically'' Pashtuns but ethnical Panjabis like the Ormuris are ethnical Ormuris but their cultural identity is not.

Ps: what has Pir Roshan Baba´s family biography to do with the Ormuris as a whole??

[Baraki]

Just clarifying a few things. My paternal ancestry goes from Baraki Barak (Logar) to Kaniguram to a Ormur basti (racial exclusive village for ormurs and later to other pashtuns) in Punjab India. Since they lived amongst only other Burkis/Barakis we kept our language and Pashto as well. I can speak both but by no means am I fluent. I also want people here to know that we DO consider ourselves pashtuns and we are quite proud of it. No one but my paternal grandfather is Ormur (he is actually from the same basti as Imran Khan's mother) and our family only marries inside pashtuns (so they all considered ormurs pashtuns as well obviously). And yes, all 4 of my grandparents are from different tribes.

[Badlun]

The most important prerequisite for being Pashtun is the blood, the genes, the tribal connection and a piece of land in Pashtunland. Then comes language and culture and social norms called Pashtunwali. Imran Khan of Pakistan and Shah Rukh Khan of India are perfect Pashtuns. However an ideal Pashtun must be linguistically and culturally as well as racially a Pashtun.

I know few Burkis/Ormurs very closely.(We studied together for more than 2 years). They consider themselves perfect Pashtuns.Their different language has an esoteric origin as they started speaking this language as a second language to hide some secrets from other fellow Pashtuns but with generations they adopted it as their first language in some areas.

[Baraki]

The most important prerequisite for being Pashtun is the blood, the genes, the tribal connection and a piece of land in Pashtunland. Then comes language and culture and social norms called Pashtunwali. Imran Khan of Pakistan and Shah Rukh Khan of India are perfect Pashtuns. However an ideal Pashtun must be linguistically and culturally as well as racially a Pashtun.

I know few Burkis/Ormurs very closely.(We studied together for more than 2 years). They consider themselves perfect Pashtuns.Their different language has an esoteric origin as they started speaking this language as a second language to hide some secrets from other fellow Pashtuns but with generations they adopted it as their first language in some areas.

Imran Khan yes, I don't really agree with Shahrukh Khan though... he seems to embrace a more hinducentric culture. I don't doubt his ancestral bloodline pakhtun-ness but I have a hard time calling him a pashtun..