Were their any famous Pashtun philosophers or mathematicians

[Tjanaparh]

Dear friends, sorry, I lack the time to answer your posts in detailed way.
But i have to add some things, and i do it in general way.
I think western civilization cannot be used as an example for people who were so much missused by it.
Western civilization is based on violence to thers while stbility in economical way inside.
The way to copy it for Pashtuns would mean, become economically strong, leave all values and traditions, good or bad, and search for world influence.

I wonder always why it is not possible to find your own way to make you live good.
Learning from west and copying is like being slave of the west. Take a good example, Russia, a big and supposedly to be strong country, but whose culture and traditions were destroyed by some maniac tsars who wanted to westernize russians.
Whatever russia does, it stays behind, it disagrees with western politics but is directed to the west.
And cannot stand for itself.
There are many other examples.

Also, prosperity of thieves and murderers are sometimes evident.
Look at my own nation, Turkey is 100 times more civilized and respected than Armenia, all use it as an example state, but same modern turkey was built on the bones of many nations, including my own.
We remained backwards, fixed with the problem of our nation, like you are with your nations destiny, so there is no wonder the states that use you prosper.
It doesn't mean it is their fault.
It is your or in our case our fault that we are in such a bad situation, but it doesn't mean to give up and become slave of your enemy (a moral slave i mean), there is always an own way out.

For the theme of "sex", it is a sick thing specially in how presented. I mean listening you all here your women seem already having problems from their society, now they need more problems of western sexism or what?

[Badlun]

Aarab Muslims were limited only to Arabian peninsula but they conquered many regions in the world , changed their language, culture, religion and now these regions are completely Arab or Muslim. West invaded, might have looted but then gave independence and today except few islands we do not have any country under the physical control of the West. All British, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Dutch colonies are now free.

West also contributed a lot to the economy, polity and culture of these lands. Look at Australia, New Zealand. Even India and Pakistan got a lot like their educational system, railways, canals, legal codes, roads etc. One of the reason why Afghanistan is still controlled by war lords is that it never remained in direct control by a western country.

Today USA or NATO attacks for national or global interests and then leave the countries. They do not physically occupy the lands as Arabs did.

Pashtuns discovered their own language because of the work of orientalists.

In which language I am typing today is a western language, which computer I am using is a western invention. Do not hate west. It has a lot to offer. We only have values and those too in books. We are corrupt, dishonest, not dutiful and fighting each other. Still we can teach the west our values and learn from them democracy and development.

[Tjanaparh]

I do not see the difference between what You describe for the Arabs and the West, with the only difference that the West did it in so much bigger sizes.
Turkic peoples, Arabs, Iranic tribes, Chinese, Russians, Western countries, Bantu peoples, or whoever conquered different regions.
In some regions Arabs or Westerns or Turks get so many that today they form a majority, but once they weren't living there. So we have independent countries but smaller cultural differences.
In other regions we have independent countries where west or Arabs or whoever didn't succeed to form a majority, these countries weren't simply given freedom as You say but had to fight a long time for their freedom.
Also many "free" countries are nominally free, but aren't free in reality.
You say it Yourself, they are controlled by a western country.

It is quiet wrong to say that west was the creator of education, because once there was quiet big knowledge under Islamic civilization that west didn't have, before there were Indians, Greeks or whoever if you look on all in the eyes of civilization.
To say, antibiotics were known already from ancient India, the to day most active antimalaric is known from chinese medicine.

Education may be different and with which criteria you may say that western education is superior to the traditions the west destroyed to then reducate the people on its values(and i apply it not only to the west but to anybody who did so, so as you mentioned Arabs, also to them, also to Russians, Chinese, and to my own people during the short time when we created a small empire and invaded neighbouring countries under king Tigran)?

Why do You think Pashtuns aren't able to discover their languages themselves and need another person?
Don't you see that it is the circumstances partly created by Russia, Britan, USA... that left Pashtuns in this difficult situation.
Sure there was a choice, Pashtuns could have old themselves like many did, but if You try to resist than the pressure becomes higher..
Sure you made mistakes, and your mistakes are your weak points used by others to weaken you more.
But the capacity of doing something, the capacity of thinking is not something exclusive to the west.
The west is neither honest, but highly dishonest and corrupt, but not brave at all.
You want to teach democracy (a pyramidal system) from the west, while could perfection and better your own system of elders and jirga (surely less pyramidal and more close to the whole nation than any democracy if sanified of sick interpretations and problems, and most importantly already common to your own people), you could be not the one who copies but the one who will be an example (these are theoretical words and we must agree how the reality makes it today impossible, but hard work makes wonders).
To treat a woman with the respect she deserves you don't need the west, even more, better you don't use its methods.

Sorry brother, I have no time to continue and heavily dislike being to wordfull, so the rest i say in some simple phrases.

You cannot measure reality only in thechnical progress and out of historical context.

It is like saying "USA are more ecological because they have developed so many eco-technologies and so peacfull because they have so many organizations for peace", not considering their pollution and their wars crimes.
If we should measure out of humanity, I would more use as an example some people of northern Russia, like Nenets or others...
Some of them never made eny wars in there history, did not polute nature and knew to live in harmony and responsability, what is better than this?
I don'T hate anybody by the way, but lets try not to be blind.And same is concerning also ourselves, self-pride and inferiority complex are both illnesses.
Being sure of yourself and critical to yourself are their healthy counterparts.

I now really need to stop and don'T promise to be able to answer in a similar way, also even this answer was superficial and perhaps polemical, but i hope i could share at least some thoughts...
Best health to you...

[Khostai]

Dear friends, sorry, I lack the time to answer your posts in detailed way.
But i have to add some things, and i do it in general way.
I think western civilization cannot be used as an example for people who were so much missused by it.
Western civilization is based on violence to thers while stbility in economical way inside.
The way to copy it for Pashtuns would mean, become economically strong, leave all values and traditions, good or bad, and search for world influence.

I wonder always why it is not possible to find your own way to make you live good.
Learning from west and copying is like being slave of the west. Take a good example, Russia, a big and supposedly to be strong country, but whose culture and traditions were destroyed by some maniac tsars who wanted to westernize russians.
Whatever russia does, it stays behind, it disagrees with western politics but is directed to the west.
And cannot stand for itself.
There are many other examples.

Also, prosperity of thieves and murderers are sometimes evident.
Look at my own nation, Turkey is 100 times more civilized and respected than Armenia, all use it as an example state, but same modern turkey was built on the bones of many nations, including my own.
We remained backwards, fixed with the problem of our nation, like you are with your nations destiny, so there is no wonder the states that use you prosper.
It doesn't mean it is their fault.
It is your or in our case our fault that we are in such a bad situation, but it doesn't mean to give up and become slave of your enemy (a moral slave i mean), there is always an own way out.

For the theme of "sex", it is a sick thing specially in how presented. I mean listening you all here your women seem already having problems from their society, now they need more problems of western sexism or what?

Nation copy form other nations, thats just natural, Badlun says we should copy the science and technology, we don't have to copy the whole western culture.
Actuly the west also copied The east in early days, if you look at some old paintings in the begining of Renaicance you can even see men wearing some arabic type of clothes. Plus the forts in old miedievel Europe were copied from middiel east.

The message is we don't have to invent the wheel again. Many nations prospered by learning from others. I don't understand why this is so dificult to understand for some peopel here.

Armenia and Afghanistan lack behind in the world is becuase of bad desision that our leaders made. Isolating yourself form the globalising world wouldn't do you good.

[Tjanaparh]

Nation copy form other nations, thats just natural, Badlun says we should copy the science and technology, we don't have to copy the whole western culture.
Actuly the west also copied The east in early days, if you look at some old paintings in the begining of Renaicance you can even see men wearing some arabic type of clothes. Plus the forts in old miedievel Europe were copied from middiel east.

The message is we don't have to invent the wheel again. Many nations prospered by learning from others. I don't understand why this is so dificult to understand for some peopel here.

Armenia and Afghanistan lack behind in the world is becuase of bad desision that our leaders made. Isolating yourself form the globalising world wouldn't do you good.

Dear Khostai, influences happen my friend, sure but things should be done with awareness, We are in a weak point, that means double awareness.
I am a person from side and at least from the small view from side i see in your people good capacities that seem the first to suffer in any case.
Maybe once i will have the possibility to visit Afghanistan to have clearer ideas, but for sure i am convinced you are able to find your own special and individual way and not follow simply globalization. I know it is impossible to simply built a wall arround, but it is possible to not blindly accept anything or to blindly ignore everything on the other side.

[Kushan Prince]

So true. Half the stuff persians ignorantly claim as their own, were actually introduced by the arabs. Like algebra for example.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Actually Algebra was developed by Al-Khwarithmi who was a Persian speaking Khwarzemi.

[Kushan Prince]

It was actually developed by the Babylonians but the Persians innovated it.

[Badlun]

I do not see the difference between what You describe for the Arabs and the West, with the only difference that the West did it in so much bigger sizes.
Turkic peoples, Arabs, Iranic tribes, Chinese, Russians, Western countries, Bantu peoples, or whoever conquered different regions.
In some regions Arabs or Westerns or Turks get so many that today they form a majority, but once they weren't living there. So we have independent countries but smaller cultural differences.
In other regions we have independent countries where west or Arabs or whoever didn't succeed to form a majority, these countries weren't simply given freedom as You say but had to fight a long time for their freedom.
Also many "free" countries are nominally free, but aren't free in reality.
You say it Yourself, they are controlled by a western country.

It is quiet wrong to say that west was the creator of education, because once there was quiet big knowledge under Islamic civilization that west didn't have, before there were Indians, Greeks or whoever if you look on all in the eyes of civilization.
To say, antibiotics were known already from ancient India, the to day most active antimalaric is known from chinese medicine.

Education may be different and with which criteria you may say that western education is superior to the traditions the west destroyed to then reducate the people on its values(and i apply it not only to the west but to anybody who did so, so as you mentioned Arabs, also to them, also to Russians, Chinese, and to my own people during the short time when we created a small empire and invaded neighbouring countries under king Tigran)?

Why do You think Pashtuns aren't able to discover their languages themselves and need another person?
Don't you see that it is the circumstances partly created by Russia, Britan, USA... that left Pashtuns in this difficult situation.
Sure there was a choice, Pashtuns could have old themselves like many did, but if You try to resist than the pressure becomes higher..
Sure you made mistakes, and your mistakes are your weak points used by others to weaken you more.
But the capacity of doing something, the capacity of thinking is not something exclusive to the west.
The west is neither honest, but highly dishonest and corrupt, but not brave at all.
You want to teach democracy (a pyramidal system) from the west, while could perfection and better your own system of elders and jirga (surely less pyramidal and more close to the whole nation than any democracy if sanified of sick interpretations and problems, and most importantly already common to your own people), you could be not the one who copies but the one who will be an example (these are theoretical words and we must agree how the reality makes it today impossible, but hard work makes wonders).
To treat a woman with the respect she deserves you don't need the west, even more, better you don't use its methods.

Sorry brother, I have no time to continue and heavily dislike being to wordfull, so the rest i say in some simple phrases.

You cannot measure reality only in thechnical progress and out of historical context.

It is like saying "USA are more ecological because they have developed so many eco-technologies and so peacfull because they have so many organizations for peace", not considering their pollution and their wars crimes.
If we should measure out of humanity, I would more use as an example some people of northern Russia, like Nenets or others...
Some of them never made eny wars in there history, did not polute nature and knew to live in harmony and responsability, what is better than this?
I don'T hate anybody by the way, but lets try not to be blind.And same is concerning also ourselves, self-pride and inferiority complex are both illnesses.
Being sure of yourself and critical to yourself are their healthy counterparts.

I now really need to stop and don'T promise to be able to answer in a similar way, also even this answer was superficial and perhaps polemical, but i hope i could share at least some thoughts...
Best health to you...

Thanks for your insight.
Action speaks louder than words. In spite of all praise for our social values, Jirga system, morality etc no body wants to live in our own countries or in the lands of Nenets but in USA, Europe or other parts of the developed world.

All of us including you have left our own lands and prefer to live in the world which you criticize. It means West offers what we want.

Let us be realistic and instead of talking of abstract things, make our own world similar to the developed world so we enjoy our own lands and do not live in some one else land and save our generations from the curse of immigration, brain drain and illegal human trafficking.

[El Camello]

Thanks for your insight.
Action speaks louder than words. In spite of all praise for our social values, Jirga system, morality etc no body wants to live in our own countries or in the lands of Nenets but in USA, Europe or other parts of the developed world.

All of us including you have left our own lands and prefer to live in the world which you criticize. It means West offers what we want.

Let us be realistic and instead of talking of abstract things, make our own world similar to the developed world so we enjoy our own lands and do not live in some one else land and save our generations from the curse of immigration, brain drain and illegal human trafficking.

Badlun, can you help me get out of the Middle East? I want to go back to London even though London is pretty bad itself, its like Vegas compared to the Arabian Gulf.

[Badlun]

Badlun, can you help me get out of the Middle East? I want to go back to London even though London is pretty bad itself, its like Vegas compared to the Arabian Gulf.

I love London as a city. I have lived there for few months because of my job but personally I like more Mediterranean(Spain, Italy, France)and some tropical lands than to live permanently in a cold city like London. However it is far far better than any Middle eastern city. Only Tel Aviv can be a better choice.

I do not know why are you in Middle East? Please have some good university course in London, some side job, be professional or have some business and enjoy life.

I wish every city of Middle east becomes one day like London or Washington and every country like UK or US!

[El Camello]

I love London as a city. I have lived there for few months because of my job but personally I like more Mediterranean(Spain, Italy, France)and some tropical lands than to live permanently in a cold city like London. However it is far far better than any Middle eastern city. Only Tel Aviv can be a better choice.

I do not know why are you in Middle East? Please have some good university course in London, some side job, be professional or have some business and enjoy life.

I wish every city of Middle east becomes one day like London or Washington and every country like UK or US!

London isn't that good when you actually live there, but its great for visiting.

Spain = heaven in Europe. Italy is good too. South of France is good.

I came to the Middle East for a job (tax-free income) but I hate it here!

I'd much rather be in India, Pakistan, Nepal, Afghanistan or Africa than here.

I hate living in countries with ridiculous laws, like alcohol which is haraam is freely available in this so-called "Muslim" country whereas marijuana is nowhere to be found.

[Tjanaparh]

All of us including you have left our own lands and prefer to live in the world which you criticize. It means West offers what we want.

You are wrong about me my friend, yes I am at the moment really in the west, but i returned again here not of will to be here. I don't want to share here the personal problems which keep me here. I ensure you i will leave agian, in one year hopefully forever.
And if you all gona only leave it will be always that way. I stop my words here dear Badlun, i hope my future actions can make you think, all the best to you!

[kanishka]

This is where tajiks beat Pashtuns

how many Punjabi intellectuals ??

[IcancryifIwantto]

The trick word here is "famous"...