what would justify hitting a woman...

[Roshina]

@ Luffy Brother (and this is not to mean that every single statement of mine below is a response to your post; only parts of my reply are directed to you, not all):

I COMPLETELY disagree with the claim that husband has any authority over his wife, for whatever reason. And, no, as much as you wanna believe it, that makes the wife and husband more like subject (servant) and king, rather than, well, wife and husband. They're supposed to be "garments of one another," which should mean that both have an equal standing. But where's this equal standing when the husband is allowed to beat his wife just because he is the head of the household?

Wives are no lesser humans than their husbands are. It is foolish, to say the least, to compare a husband to a king and the home/household to a kingdom; his wife then becomes his subject, not even his queen! It's equally, if not more, foolish to say that a wife cannot beat her husband just as a child would not beat his mother -- while the husband can beat his wife just as a mother beats her child! What on earth?! Why give the wife such a low status, as low as a child's, while giving the husband such a high status, as high as a mother's? I know, I know; that's not the point, but this is exactly what's ultimately being done: the authority that a mother has over her child is nothing small! You're therefore insinuating that the husband's authority over his wife is that high as well. And, no, there's NOTHING about the husband that gives him this authority. You think it's because he works to earn money for his family? Sure - but the wife isn't forbidden from working either, so if she wants, she can work as well. Besides, being a housewife is MUCH more stressful and tiring than having a job. Try working around the house for a day or two to taste the life of your mother, sister, and daughter. No one can thus say that the husband takes care of financial obligations, and that's why he gets to beat his wife and have any authority over her. I wonder, what DOES justify this, though? That a man is allowed to hit his wife? (I know, this doesn't mean that a woman has never hit her husband. There's a difference between what can be done in theory and what is done in practice, too, though.)

Not gonna work, especially when the wife works, too, and her money doesn't' go to her alone but goes to the entire family because the family can't survive on the husband's money alone.

[Michin Khel]

@ Luffy Brother (and this is not to mean that every single statement of mine below is a response to your post; only parts of my reply are directed to you, not all):

First of all thanks for your reply.

Status of husband is greater than wife, if we make it equal then such relationship will not be stable and long, it will lasts for some years as it is happening in west. If we goes by your logic then we can say that kids are also no lesser humans than their Parents and the parents have no authority over their childs......with which no parents can agree.

Men and women are equal but husband and wife are not equal. I gave example of mother to clearify that authority of husband over wife has no link with men vs women. To run the the family, each of its member has/her specific role. In islam family is an insititution and it must have a head, which is husband. Wife has the role of taking care of home and childs. If she wants to become the head of family then she has to switch her role with that of husband that is she has to earn and to deal with outside home responsibilities while then her husband has to sit for taking care of home and childrens........which is abviously un-natural.

Both husband and wife cant earn (outside home) at the same time. Either husband has to earn or wife. Now ask yourself honestly who is better for the task of earning?. If you say that woman can earn better than man then husband has to sit in home for taking care of houehold affairs...........which is rediculous.

If you say that both should earn then what about home and kids, who will take care of them?

[*Mahzala*]

Great post, guley!

Me, I think that in order for me to understand those who don't believe in divorce at ALL (and Mahzala Jaan implied (I may be wrong; forgive me if so, Mahzala) in her post that to get a divorce is to abuse your right to divorce), I would have to be in their shoes. For, right now, I cannot understand anyone for being SO against divorce that they think that they'd never, ever, ever take advantage of this right even if it is absolutely called for. I'm sure that each couple would know what's best for them when the time comes, and we have no right to decide whether they're wrong or right.

Let me make my stance a bit clear (and the fact that this is not targeted only at you, but to those who are unclear of the context I am speaking from). I am very vague (compared to many), I know. Like you say, you would never understand this side of me, because you are unaware of what I have experienced and what I have come to learn. I have seen (relatives) marriages end in divorce. I have seen a husband cheat on his wife over and over. I have seen a woman leave because of being hit (for her own disobedience (abusing the rights of divorce comes in here, not a general statement) and the intolerance of her husband). I have seen marriages on the edge of a knife. I have seen good wives and impatient, uncontent husbands. I have seen men who compromise and sacrifice everything in the name of his wife and children, and women who have taken advantage of it. From each one, I have learnt a lesson that I intend to carry out in my own life.

Your statement: every couple knows what to do when the right time comes, is merely an accentuation of what I am saying and said in my previous post. I am not one of those who likes to reveal my intentions or actions, au zema ghato khabero ta laas achawel nekhwakheegi (because when the time comes, these words and principles come last and emotions kick in), but I will always stand by my stance that for me, divorce is not even the last option. Because, as I said earlier, one of my principles in life is to give more value and time to preventing something, rather than suffering and mending the consequences of something that could have been avoided.

I am not against divorce. If you reread my post, I have made myself clear in the sense that I was not speaking for women who are married or who have asked for a divorce for their own reasons. Rather, my stance is that someone should not go into marriage thinking, well yes, if he hits me I am going to ask for a divorce. That's not only a fantasised approach, but also very immature and shows a lack of life experieces. If that is the case, you (a general statement again) are not ready for marriage, and you need a good few years to stand up on your feet and sort out your inabiliy to make rational decisions.

[Roshina]

^ Thanks for the clarification, Mahzala! I agree - each situation is different, and we are in no position to decide whether divorce is the right thing to do or not because each couple has their own worries and problems. I also agree that when the time comes, we'll prolly not do what we claim we'd do in such a situation -- God forbid any of us ever go through such a thing, though! I'm sure, or at least I hope, that most of us are reasonable and human enough to actually contemplate long and hard before resorting to any particular decision, be it leaving or staying.

[Dreamer]

Husband and wives are equal partners... each have their role and so long as their mutual support for each other marriage shld prosper... there are hard times in everything but no husband has the right 2 beat his wife up.... I recently saw a woman who I suspected had domestic violence issues... her story and findings on examination didnt match...I reported my suspicions 2 my consultant and we both asked her to file a claim against her husband...

[Toramana]

Islam permits hitting a woman if she doesn't act on the whims of her man.

[erlangner]

Manra ee, Jeenai de wahallo ao khafa kawallo na da, de khkulawallo da. I cannt see tears in a girl's eyes. It hurts me more than I hurt her physically. Better not to make her sad at all. A flower must be open mouth smiling or ready to smile, but flower should not be withered.
Hitting of a woman, my dears, When prophet beated any of his wives, although he remained away from them for 40 days but...... we say we should follow him in all but here not. We are talking about Islam here.
In pashtun culture ya it is allowed and many people do it. We should not mix culture and religion.

[IamDZJ]

cheating

[Feroza_Banu]

for those of you who say... "one should do absolutely everything to keep the marriage.... work to work it out... and use divorce as a last option"

who decides for her that it is time for her to give up and get a divorce... is it the first punch? first nose bleed? first blue battered body? first slap? ... first emotional and verbal torture? or is it second? or third? or after a year or 5 or 10? ... what do you consider "i have done everything i can and i can't stay in this relationship anymore"... which stage?

do you guys know that some women can't decide this for themselves... because no matter what they do it is not enough in their own eyes... women think they have not done enough because sad to say women do take responsibility for failure of a relationship... so it eats her to see her marriage break and most of women decide to stay in marriage and give in more and more because she just can't seem to decide for herself that its enough.

[erlangner]

She cannot give divorce but she can go to court and aks the husband for divorce. However, one should choose well before the marriage, not emotional just with cold mind, and then keep her forever.
same to a girl, but Pashtoon culture may be a bit hrudle in the choice, as girls have limited choice always.
However, it is our culture and if someone beats, may be due to much love..... hahaha, however in my mind it does not come to hit or beat a girl, look much brutal, to beat helpless and innocent creature.
however, depends on mind and situation of the people.

It is very famous joke, that some women measure their love with husband beating, and then she tells other women how manly is her husband. Yarra dassay tre yaregee tol. tsok da hagha pa makh uff qadray ham an shee kawallay.

[IamDZJ]

the manipulative shar andaaz trouble makers. they just deserve to be beaten up. not necessarily by their husbands. let's face it, a woman who has come that far clearly didn't marry a genius.

[Gujju_Mitai]

Misogyny at its worst...

First of all thanks for your reply.

Status of husband is greater than wife, if we make it equal then such relationship will not be stable and long, it will lasts for some years as it is happening in west. If we goes by your logic then we can say that kids are also no lesser humans than their Parents and the parents have no authority over their childs......with which no parents can agree.

Men and women are equal but husband and wife are not equal. I gave example of mother to clearify that authority of husband over wife has no link with men vs women. To run the the family, each of its member has/her specific role. In islam family is an insititution and it must have a head, which is husband. Wife has the role of taking care of home and childs. If she wants to become the head of family then she has to switch her role with that of husband that is she has to earn and to deal with outside home responsibilities while then her husband has to sit for taking care of home and childrens........which is abviously un-natural.

Both husband and wife cant earn (outside home) at the same time. Either husband has to earn or wife. Now ask yourself honestly who is better for the task of earning?. If you say that woman can earn better than man then husband has to sit in home for taking care of houehold affairs...........which is rediculous.

If you say that both should earn then what about home and kids, who will take care of them?

Actually in Islam a man and a woman are considered DIFFERENT but EQUAL. You simply cannot tell the difference. The roles of men and the roles of women in our society in Islam are different. Their status in Islam are equal. That is a clear difference. When we all die and go to Allah(swt) our souls are not weighed unequally, a man will have to answer as many of the questions that Allah(swt) gives to him as will a woman. As far as parents are concerned, both the children and the parents are EQUAL in Islam. THAT is different from respect. The parents are respected by their children and the children are taken care of by their parents (plus this is a child vs adult example, not a adult vs adult example such as a male or female). As a female, I am more than capable of doing anything for myself, so if I had a husband who told me what I can and cannot do, he will be out the door (this is different from he ASKING me, if he were to ask me, we would have a discussion, find his reasons why he wants me to do or not do something, then make a decision together). Clearly many of you have not been married, you all would know how to treat each other with EQUAL RESPECT.

[Gujju_Mitai]

Salam Shlombay. I just want to know what the divorce rate in the USA has to do with having equal status in Islam between men and women? One has nothing to do with the other. The American culture may feel divorce is a normal ideology, but in Islamic societies, divorce is discouraged. However, that doesn't mean a Muslim man or a Muslim woman cannot get a divorce, if they are not being taken care of, one can walk away from their marriage.

[IamDZJ]

DZJ
you would hit someone?

yes

[Roshina]

Salam Shlombay. I just want to know what the divorce rate in the USA has to do with having equal status in Islam between men and women? One has nothing to do with the other. The American culture may feel divorce is a normal ideology, but in Islamic societies, divorce is discouraged. However, that doesn't mean a Muslim man or a Muslim woman cannot get a divorce, if they are not being taken care of, one can walk away from their marriage.

Exactly! Like, what the heck?! "The west has a higher divorce rate because there, husbands and wives see each other as partners of one another rather than king and servant!" Good God. That's sheer dumbness.

I pity the women who end up married to those men who think that wives are of a lower status than their husbands just because husbands make the money -- that even, in many, not all families.