Marriage to non-Pashtuns

[Roshina]

Also... could you please stop yelling? (Bold, italicized, etc.) It makes it very hard to listen to you then. I don't read posts like that. I just can't. They're too much for my eyes.

[Roshina]

Sure, but that doesn't explain how someone is immodest in every SINGLE aspect of life - just by having a boyfriend. So, do you wanna explain to me HOW if Girl X has a boyfriend, she's immodest in every aspect of life and every aspect of practicing Islam (or how Boy X having a girlfriend is immodest in every possible way)? Is that ALL there is to modesty, just not having a boyfriend? Or does modesty go beyond that and that's just one element of it?

If you wanna talk about Islam with me, then you must be willing to listen. Because when it comes to Islam, I don't say anything unless I know exactly 100% what I'm talking about and have concrete evidence or a cogent explanation. And it's with folks like you that discussing Islam is useless and difficult because ALL you can say is X is haraam and that's it. We're not trained to ponder.

[Roshina]

When you stop posting emoticons left and right, I'll take what you said into consideration.

I know when to use my emoticons and when not to. I don't use them in serious posts, and if I've used them in a post with you, all you had to do was tell me it was bothering you.

When you talk to others, by all means - go ahead and make large fonts and make every word bold and italicized and all, but when you do it in replies to MY posts, I'm not gonna read them. I just can't read stuff that seems to screaming for attention.

Whats worse, you still haven't proven me wrong, although that was clearly your intention.

[Roshina]

Oh, I see you're not reading my responses.

AND you keep changing the question to evade responding to the questions I ask. But why? What was your original question and what has been your most recent question?

This is my when saying, "Please refer to my signature," becomes really useful. So ... please refer to my signature below, since you're not willing to explain to me HOW a girl having a boyfriend is SO immodest that she's immodest in EVERY single aspect of life and CANNOT be modest in any other way at all, because, clearly, modesty ONLY means not having a boyfriend. Everything else has nothing to do with modesty.

[Mayana]

I think the others in here should learn alot of things from you, I face alot of disappointment when I see some youths lost in meaningless nationalism and pure racism but at the same time feel really good and happy when I know that bright and broadminded individuals like you still exist.

Keep it up so others look upto you like a rolemodel.

Oh my, thank you soo much, you're too kind, wrora!

I have nothing against people loving and valuing their heritage unfortunately Afghanistan the heritage actually defines people...this is exactly why the rule of central government has never been really established in Afghanistan…even in golden days of Sardar e Shayed M Doud or late Zahir shah the gov derived its legitimacy from the tribal elders whom they bribed…so in order to have a nation, in order to create a soverign single terroritorial unit…we must be more royal to our nation and country then our tribes or heritage…. in the same process other nation like Japan went throw.. by destroying the tribal and regional identity and forcing people to think and act as Japanese first and from most.

I believe a centralized government only works for very few states and that too, very special kinds of states. For example, in France they have a centralized government.. It's a very secular state and the people aren't that diverse.
Afghanistan is a totally different story. First off, we have dozens of ethnicities, dozens of languages, many many different religions. This is how Afghanistan worked under it's glorious days under Amanullah Khan, Zaher Shah or Daud Khan.. It is part of our culture and our mentality to have a decentralized government.. There are many instances, the elders of the family, the elders of the neighborhood, the elders of the village.. and just the concept of 'loya jirga' proves that this dcentralized system is part of Afghan mentality and as I mentioned earlier.. I do not believe that we should change such crucial basic anthropological and socio-cultural aspects of our being to imitate other states that seem to be working.
We have to view this from several viewpoints; we have to consider our linguistic diversity, our geopolitical composition, our values as a nation etc. What works for us will not work for France because they don't have any states like we do. Our people have this intense bond with their Welaayat, withtheir miliyaat, with their Ooluswaali and that is a good thing.. t is necessary to have this bond in order to make a decentralized system work. It is not this bond that keeps us apart.. it is the notion of ethnocentrism. =\

[Roshina]

I never said that, I just said someone who has a boyfriend. Should not be running around preaching modesty and Pashtunwali or better yet ISLAM.

You didn't say that. You seem to believe that if a girl has a boyfriend, she cannot be modest at ALL, since my original post said, "I know of girls who have boyfriends but are still very modest," and you thought that was a contradiction -- as if it cannot be possible to have a boyfriend AND be modest.

You can make any suggestions to those girls you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that there's FAR more to modesty than just avoiding boyfriends/girlfriends.

You think it was inappropriate to point that out (and I stick by it: Modesty is more than just not having a boyfriend/girlfriend), but that's a fact.

Glad we agree on that.

Now my job here is done.

Oh, and if you're assuming *I* have a boyfriend, all I can do is laugh. If I had one, though, I woudln't care what you think at all, and your opinion would not make me think otherwise. But I'm only stating a fact: Modesty is more than just not having a boyfriend/girlfriend.

P.S. Sorry for the repetitions. They were necessary in my mind, since there's MUCH more to modesty than just not having boyfriends/girlfriends.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Parsiwaan, peshawar is not the centre of Pashtunkhwa nor the end all be all of it. We can't compare all pashtuns to kabul or peshawar. Also, Pashtuns have married on both sides, and it happens even today (although not as much as 30 years ago). If they have a complex that x is a 'pakistani' and y is a 'kabulai', well they can indulge in this ignorance for two reasons - it is their life and unfortunately pettiness is big in our society. Third of all, what is your definition of culture and culture-less? Peshawar is quite an ancient city and was once the winter capital of Afghanistan. Also, you can't impose such a criteria on 30 million people to define their identity. Amir Muqam type people are Pashtuns/Afghan, and so are people like mashar mahmood khan. Both are on the opposite political spectrum but are ethnically the same. Even if you apply this criteria to Afghanistan's pashtuns, you will end up with a tiny microstate in and around a few suburbs of Peshawar and Kabul.

BTW there are always people in every society that indulge in such activities, they in no way represent the whole. I can't speak for other people but from the Pashtuns I have seen they generally maintain their religion and pashto. Of course there are outliers who indulge in acts that well lets say would lead to Topak ddazz back home.

[Roshina]

^ I've said all I've wanted to say, and you've said all you wanted to say, and we're going nowhere. I remain firm in my belief: There's MUCH more to modesty than just avoiding having boyfriends/girlfriends. You wanna show me how that's ALL there is to modesty? Well, I've given you plenty of chances, and you haven't shown me yet, so ... I don't have time to waste anymore.

Also, if you read my posts carefully, I made sure NOT to tell you what *I* personally think of them -- because what I think of them doesn't matter. You don't need to hear what I think of them; they need to hear what I think of them, if they care and are willing to respond to my opinion regarding them. So all these assumptions of yours, claiming that I'm justifying their behavior and whatnot, have no basis in my posts since I never justified them, never said it's okay to do these things. My stating a fact (that modesty has no fixed definition) doesn't necessarily mean I approve of what they do, but according to you, it means I JUSTIFY their lifestyle! Um....

Oh, but hey ... what's with this whole, "it's not scholarly-like" and "it its not intellectual" etc. comments of yours? I'm not interested in appearing like that, BUT I say what I say and if in YOUR opinion it makes me look a certain way, so be it. I'm not the type of girl who stops doing something just because it makes me appear a certain way in someone's opinion, wror gula

[MazloomyarMaseed]

All I said which again I am shocked you find so difficult to understand was, what you said was wrong. I provide my stance above. You spoke on there behalf, If you carefully read what I wrote you will see what you said contradicts our culture and our religion. I brought this concern up 3 times and you ignored it all 3, What does that tell me? It tells me you are being dishonest with your views.

I don't understand why you are twisting the discussion, I am trying to keep this as simple as possible, You said,



"Who have boyfriends but are still very modest"

The quoted sentence above is where you are wrong, You can not have a boyfriend and be dating and yet consider yourself in compliance with our culture and religion. If you disagree with the above, You are not disagreeing with me. But you are disagreeing with Islam and Pashtunwali.

Do I need to show you that dating, kissing,boyfriend is Haram?
Do you mind to ask your parents if Dating is part of our Pashtun culture?

If one removes the Question of Islam and Faith, Still the whole boyfriend and girlfriend scence was and is never accept by Pashtunwali. You see roara jan, Qurratgai is from America so what do you expect.

This is what I mean, Pashtuns have two threats, one comes from people who promote Westernism and the other hand you have those promoting Arab Agenda.

Girlfriends and Boyfriends is custom of the West, When you grow up in the West, from day one you see others with girlfriends and boyfriends, our elders for the last 100's of years never heard of boyfriend and girlfriend and no problems hve occured. So how can a Pashtun women date men out of marriage, loook modest? I dont think so. Qurratgai is raised in a society where a male allows his sister to bring over her boyfriend to have sex with while the mother and father watch drama on the tv in the room below their room, they get praised for the number of boyfriends and girlfriends they have had sex with, this is why Qurratgais views in this context will only be accepted in Lahore.

Kind Regards

[erlangner]

The discussion is very emotional, aggressive again bringing Islam in the middle, although it was about marriage to non-pashtuns, means purely cultural problem. As far as the boyfriend and girlfriend concept is concerned, It is socially not accepted in pashtuns, therefore occur the things hidden. In Europe it is socially accepted and it means almost marriage but they just avoid official complications and then divorce problems, so avoid marrying. Although wehn girl and boy are agreed and socially annoucned, then it is more or less marriage.
Then what is modesty has different definitions in different societies. Again this ethnocentrism will come,, and difficult to be neutral, however, a boy having a girl friend openly can never be called a modest in a Pashtun society, and vice versa for a girl, however, in europe or west it is normal and I know mayn nice boys and girls although having GF or BF.
If we will point out in our discussion which definitions fit to which society will reduce the emotional situation. See the definition for honour? What pashtuns think, what punjabi think, and then about west etc, you will come across different definitions.

[erlangner]

Intrestingly, I was asked by a Pashtoon girl few days back who is westerinized but still a nice girl. Her question was very valid? but it shocked me being the cultural pashtun. She referred a BBC article where it mentioned that most of the Arab girls in Europe go to virginity clinic in Paris, where they reocver virginity through operation, just to deciet the husband and avoid divorce, as Arab men only accept the virgin girls for marriage. This is the reason for most of divorces in Arab society.
Her question was what is the Pashtuns opinion about virginity? and why the divorce rate is so low? I was unable to respond immediately and rightly.

[tor_khan]

You said it here,


I am not trying to attack you, I understand this is your site and what not. But as a husband and a father, I am pointing out how absurd what you just said was in the light of Pashtunwali and Islam.

I understand the sentiment. Cultures do change and sometimes painfully, but if we go all "liberal" and allow next to any behaviour as okay, e.g. extra marital boyfriend/girlfriend liasons then good-bye Pashtoon culture and hello new one. I am not making individual judgments here as some of my close family have made their own choices with regards to this, but, what I will say, is that this is not the traditional Pashtoon way as I understand it.

We're pretty much the same as all other ethnic groups and people when it comes to emotions, but somehow, somewhere many Pashtoons see personal conduct differently to our neighbouring groups - I'm not claiming that we're perfect, I add. However, what do we think of those die in the hills and valleys protecting their way of life and for the right to remain a dignified Pashtoon - are they backwards and misguided?

[Shayesta]

How about those that never been to kabul in their live...end up coming to west and go out with Hindus, Arabs, Pakistanis, Black, Maxican?

That's funny, I always thought those who came to the West prior to 9/11 straight-away from Afghanistan at least had to set a foot in Kabul because no other province in the country had a clear direction to the West, not even Mazar and Herat. Hmm.

I suggest you visit flushing or queen NY...and see it for yourself wt some of Kandhari girls are doing there...

LOOOOL! Two of my second cousins (both married) live in that area and all they talk about is how much they enjoy their time with Kandaharis and apparently there is even a mosque built by Kandaharis! I know this trick of defaming Kandahari girls, so keep that crap to yourself. One of my Kabuli friends in Holland used to 'warn' me of Kandaharis but every single Kandahari I met there was very well mannered and stay within their limits, later on (after looking at their beauty) I understood why people make up sh*t about them.

or you can also check on how the Pashtons girl form Swat end up in Punjabi brothels after their own father sell them...

So those Swatis' fathers sell them in New York; A place where you can earn money without even selling a bit of your daughter's hair? Dude, I am asking it nicely; Just shush.

check the girl I given her name…she is Pashto speaker Pashton and is married to a big lips Black guy.

Let alone her marrying a black guy, in Germany only two Herati girls were killed by their brothers living with their black boyfriends. And if my eyes weren't deceiving me, I have seen those same people, especially Kabulis, from Cali hang out with black guys. Ugh.

The problem with people like you are that you just look at others people but never look at youself…

LOL, look who is talking.

so don’t generalize about others.

Again; Look who is talking.

if Pashtons=Afghan then why the pashton of Afghanistan are refusing to marry their daughter to Pashton of Pakistan?

Are you paid to be this stupid? Even Tajiks of Afghanistan don't want their children to marry an Iranian or Tajikistani, do you know why? Exactly, because they are non-Afghans. Same applies to our Pukhtoons.

just as they want to impose their Madrassa brainwashed taliban on Afghanistan but they themselves want to enjoy Mujrah dancing...

That was their government, their people supported them because they were (and some still are) ignorant. Whatever rest of Pakistan might be like, but unlike you I can admit people of Pakhtunkhwa never made Afghans feel like they are refugees on 'someone else's' land.

The fact is paksitani are the most cultureless and hypocrite people…

What culture and what identity do you have? A former Pukhtoon, current Tajik, Afghan but yet Parsiwaan? And to forget, first saying both your grandmothers are Tajiks and both grandfathers are Pukhtoons, but all of a sudden your father remained half Tajik and Half Pukhtoon and your mother turned into full-blood Tajik? At least read back your own comments before posting them because you are an horrible liar! It were these culture-less and hypocrite Pakistani Pukthoons who let you Tajiks live their lives as happily as they let Pukhtoons, while you Tajiks had thrown out your own countrymen Pukhtoons right after US invasion. Again, remember?

Have u been to Afghanistan? say Laghman, Kapisa, Parwaan..there are Pashto speaker and Dari speaker living side by side... and there is absolutely no diff in term of culture or race in them...none wts ever.

Nice way to twist my words. You said that only difference between Pukhtoons and Tajiks is their language, and later on you said that you got more in common with Dari speakers than Pukhto speakers. Do you even know what you are talking about? And besides, I have not only been to Laghman; I am from Laghman and my grandfathers are Pukhtoons but grandmothers are Tajiks.

LOL if you were from kabul you would know that not only Kandhar...but Mazari, Logari and Takhirs are called gay...for there are a lot of gays in these places...

This is exactly my point. Kabulis make fun of everyone while they themselves are zero from many aspects, except for just some of them who are decent people indeed. What have they contributed to Afghanistan anyway? And the funny thing, only gay amongst Afghans I noticed was a Kabuli, LOL.

How about this: link.

What about it? Where does it say Shinwaris 'sell' their daughters for money or donkeys? It says they used to give away their daughters in order to stop bloodshed amongst families, and lemme tell you that Shinwar by far is not only place where this happens. Still amongst some very rich tribes in India family-rivalry is going on where people end up marrying their daughters off to end the enmity, and this recently also started taking place in Faryab and Badakhshan. The funny thing is that Pukhtoons are thinking of stopping many wrong things, while non-pukhtoons just kicked off with it, LOL.

Or when these same Shinwaar rebelled against greatest king of Afghanistan Amanullah in favor of a Tajik thief Bachia Saqaaw? where was these Shinwaris ghirat then?

Now what the hell has their opposition against Amanullah Khan got anything to do with them being lied about to sell their daughters for donkeys!? If Shinwaris weren't happy about Amanullah Khan's wife wearing 'short clothes' then what on earth makes you think they will sell their women for donkeys? Dayum!

You can not have it both ways... Ahmad zahir was not laghmani simply because he and his parents non were born in Laghman...

If you want to make up a lie anyway, then at least do it well. His father was born in Laghman, in same area where one of my grandmothers was born and he in fact used to visit Laghman every now and then with his family. There you go.

moreover he represented Persian culture not Pashton one...simply b/c all of his songs were in Persian with exception of 2 or 3 pashto songs.

How did he represent Persian 'culture'? Did he organize the Nawrooz events? Did he perform Qarsak? Did he perform Qataghani? He only sang in Dari and since decades back none cared about Pukhto and Dari anyway, nor did he. And what happened now to your 'Pukhtoons and Tajiks are the same' myth? Did you even know Mangal is a Tajik? Does that make him a Pukhtoon now since he only sung in Pukhto?

Again generalization... if a mazari women does that then its a shame for all afghans.

If Pukhtoons sell their women then entire Pukhtoon nation should be ashamed of themselves and you very proudly make up lies about how they do it, but when a Mazari does the same then it's a shame for the entire nation? Generalisation indeed, before using that word again at least search up for what it means.

If pashton was tajik then they would not be called Pashton would they? The fact that racially they are same does noth mean Pashton=Tajik.

Racially all human beings are said to be the same. Some say originally we are all from Africa, others say we are all children of Adam and Eva. What do you have to say in this regard?

NO they will be called Afghan-American!

Then what are you? Persian-Pukhtoon?

[Millatpal Noorzai]

Intrestingly, I was asked by a Pashtoon girl few days back who is westerinized but still a nice girl. Her question was very valid? but it shocked me being the cultural pashtun. She referred a BBC article where it mentioned that most of the Arab girls in Europe go to virginity clinic in Paris, where they reocver virginity through operation, just to deciet the husband and avoid divorce, as Arab men only accept the virgin girls for marriage. This is the reason for most of divorces in Arab society.
Her question was what is the Pashtuns opinion about virginity? and why the divorce rate is so low? I was unable to respond immediately and rightly.

I bet you had cold sweat/perspiration at the moment =)
This whole clinic thing is all over Asia and middle east now. Gynecologists are making more than Beverly Hills's face lifters =)

[Shayesta]

why should i be proud of being a pashton? something that i had no saying in it.

Did you have any say in being an Afghan or Parsiwaan then? Why do you take pride in those things?

I was just wondering if you were a communist or if your family were?

And then you accuse others of dragging your family into a discussion. Tsk tsk.

Unity is not having no cultural and ethnic diversity. Unity is being aware of your cultural, ethnic, national and linguistic identity and at the same time, respecting and embracing others' identities. THAT is true unity.

Afarin grane, I am proud of you.

mom is tajik...

But in one of your first comments your mother was half Tajik........?

You get nothing from denying it, other than just lying to yourself and others and assuming that you're superior to others just because your own females are what you believe to be "humble" and "modest."

I personally know that surely there are Pukhtanas who might even date few guys at a time (though I still haven't met such a Pukhtana), we indeed don't know every single Pukhtana on earth. But what I in particular am pointing at with Parsiwaan is that he should look at his own people first, and then join a Pukhtoon forum to tell us how cheap we actually are.

Its also known as the Mohammadzyano Kalacha. All you hear is Kandahari Pashto.

Aren't Mohamadzais known as Pukhtoons who speak Dari now?

She referred a BBC article where it mentioned that most of the Arab girls in Europe go to virginity clinic in Paris, where they reocver virginity through operation, just to deciet the husband and avoid divorce, as Arab men only accept the virgin girls for marriage.

Sadly enough, it does happen. Back in high school I use to hear Arab girls talk about their experience with their boyfriends and they used to encourage their friends to do the same, and then just go for an 'operation'. After reading the article, I understood which operation they were actually talking about. The thing which disturbs me the most is when girls who consider themselves Muslim and yet lose their virginity without being married, give the excuse of 'yeah but our men are doing the same'! They are saying it in a way as if in Islam it's said if a man loses his virginity without being married then so should a woman! Women should understand if the man is undergoing a 'kuffar' by having premarital sex then it doesn't mean a woman has to do the same to gain 'sawab', because after that both of them are committing a sin!