Pashtun woman, a challenge to the conscience of the Humanity and human rights groups.

[IamDZJ]

Couldn't write this on your wall but had to say it, so I'll say it here:

If there's anyone on this forum I'd like to emulate, it's you!

you are perfect the way you are.
why could you not write it in my wall? i would be having this conversation with you there but there is no point to it if -wait, let me try..

[Badlun]

We may continue the enlightening discussion on the status of Pashtun woman and may avoid personal remarks. Lets share and learn woth open mind and flexibility for new ideas.

I wish someone or Kakargirl may comment on my last few posts above.

[kakargirl]

[QUOTE=osho;336809]I cant understand that the same drinking, dating, clubbing if done by Pashtun men then we dont raise our eye brows but i done by Pashtun women then it becomes a question of sharam, haya, honour and Pashtunwali. [QUOTE]well in the west alot is happening women men both have been sold to complete western culture, we condenm both, men are not exempt.

Evil is evil for both men and women. If one considers dating and clubbing or drinking bad then its bad for both sexes and both must be condemned equally as drinkling is injurious to bodies of both males and females.Clubbing an ddating may be bad but for both. If these are taken normal social activities then may be recommended for both Pashtun men and women. Why we single out only Pashtun women. [QUOTE]evil is evil done by male or female its not acceptable in the pashtun culture, conservative pashtun dont accept these things at all , and i'v seen alot of people from pashtun khwa dis-own sons ,daughters due to this behaviour, where i live theres too many pashtun khwa people but not a single o family from kandahar or helmandect .

I those Pashtun women are proud of it then let them enjoy their pride.And if you dont like it yourself then dont do it and condemn the Pashtun boys too for that.[QUOTE]i condemn both.

What I am talking here is freedom for Pashtun women of ree movement as responsable human beings. And the freedom for education, jobs, choosing their own life partners as per their own sweet will not orced by their families etc not necessarily freedom to drink, or doing clubbing or dating. I a Pashtun woman wants to do some thing abd then you cant stop her by imprisoning her in the our walls o her house.

now theres two things here i need to point out , the freedom to choose to marry has been given by islam any way , but as pashtuns we follow culture more and divorce is allowed in islam so alot of things islam gave ,and like the family i come from lineage is important we dont just marry anyone like both my sisters are married to royal bloodline boys we only marry in other khanans being from the
royal descend so that will never change in the upperclass families, the only thing that should stop is those poor familys that sell there daughters and the ones your saying that are running brothels that shouldnt be happening or the little kids being sold but only finacial support can stop these people from doing this my father helped a few familys like this to stop them selling there daughters by giving them finacial support but we cant help each and everyone but in the areas we live most familys are being cared for or helped out by the upperclass family we believe in education ect but also preserving sharam haya not turning into begharaths and giving up our clothes for skinny fit jeans that are busting at the seams or skirts that are revealing everything or walking around acting like men i'm not a liberal im a conservative.

I have seen such indecent things of Pashtun women even within the four walls that even a sex worker will consider it inhuman. Pashtun fathers are running their daughters or wives. Mothers are agents for their daughers. Brothers in law are having relations and so on. Even such women will always remain within the boundries of their houses but do whatever they want. Thus moveing around freely is not necessarily equivalent to some thing bad.Many free Pashtun women are chaste and many so called house wives are prostitutes.

so i agree with education within means, we need female doctors ect again as long pashtuness is preserved what we dont want is western culture seeping in like it has into the westernized pashtuns ,thats something we dont want if my family can preserve it after being in uk 80 years then anyone can you dont have to change into something else to work or study ect.

[kakargirl]

[QUOTE=osho;336811]We are talking here of 35 million Pashtun women in the whole wolrd including Afghanistan, Pakistan. The issue has to do with the lethal combination of Pashtunwali with the wrongly interpreted Islam. The issue is not only limited to Helmand or Kndahar. Althu in these two areas of Pashtuns the situation is not different rom other parts of the world of Pashtuns. If some Pakistani Pashtuns are learning from the freer Panjabyan, then its also good news that many Pashtuns in Afghanistan are learning from the freedom of Tajik or Hazara women.

well that i respnded to roshina after being called a parrot , and truth is only know what these areas are like helmand and kandahar i know what proud and tough women live in these areas so proud of their heritage and their men, i wasnt talking about 35 million.

I have seen many Afghan Pashtuns(some are my relatives) who lead lives like Tajiks and reisdents of Kabul and the same time are good Pashtuns by observing all positive tenets of Pashtunwali and speak Pashto language. I wish our Pashtun women get the status of at least Panjabi or Indian or Tajik women i not of the western woman. Even women in Iran have better position that Pashtun women. Women in Malysia can be another example to follow.
pashtun women dont need to copy tajiks or punjabians ect they have beautiful brains, of their own they can use them fine if they really want to, they are intelligent women, some of the skills they have even without education are just eye opening ,
be pashtun ,have education , have haya and be modest be a covered woman out in the city, but don't copy because copying dilutes the pashtun culture keep the culture just get the education confidence like our women are now but preserving pashtuness.
What dress code you have or what life style you have, the same is held by majority of Pashtun women. Hence this struggle and this discussion.
well as long as they keep the decent good dress code , and not any begharath fashion.

If you speak only for your family and women of Helman or Kandahar then you are speaking for a very limited range of Pashtun women. Still the change for the better is destined for all the Pashtun women. Women rights is now a universal phenomenon and conservatism or so called intellectual debates against Pashtun women rights cant change this trend. Look how many Pashtun women are now seen in public life than the past and you will see that the efforts against freedom of Pashtun women are doomed to failure.

well yes i was speaking for our familys helmand and kandahar i guess limited but i explained why, and here in uk i'v met some really happy pahktun khwa women from really good familys there husband are great ect i dont see these women suffering and i know alot of familys from yusafzais to khattaks all sorts of tribes from pahktun khwa these family girls are studying ect but in a haya way they have kept their dress code, what i dont believe in is throwing your own culture and picking up another culture get a education become something but preserve the pashtuness the haya and sharam .my father was the 1st pashtun in uk who didnt believe that a girl shouldnt get a education , because back in the 70s people use to send their daughters to school but by the time the girls were 11 to 12 take them out and send them back home, my father stopped this in leeds and bradford by opening all girls schools for the pashtun girls which became successful now two of the schools have been changed into colleges for girls as the demand is high but now the colleges and the schools that my family opened have arab girls to indian girls to punjabi girls to pashtun girls and even converted english, irish girls the girls are picking up excellent results my father was given two O B E s by the queen for his work.

[randolph85]

these are one of those threads that are popular but i dont have the time to find out what its about lol

[unknownprince]

I think kakargirl khorey made points which can not be refuted.

I think osho(abeille) with such anti-pashtun views can finally get the message

[Badlun]

My request here is very simple and that is to give the Pashtun women the basic human right of free movement , free expression and the right to modern education, marriage by choice and the right to enjoy life like a normal human being. I dont want that she must wear mini skirts or skinny jeans or she may do clubing, dating and drinking,

She may be able to move around alone without a male guardian all the time and may be able to establish her own business, may have her own job and may earn her own money. All these done by her male counterparts why not she.

The pitiable situation is that you go around the whole Pashtunland and you may not find a single Pashtun woman moving around alone, with open face, walking, driving, doing some business or sitting on the bank of river or fishing there.

They are treated as sub humans. They dont have share in inhiritance. They dont have say in decion making. They are not members of Jirgas. This situation has to be improved. If the situation in some royal or rich family is good but this is not the fate of the majority of the cases.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Being a broken record is not a good way to respond; it simply must be understood, that some of the things being claimed as basic rights are not actually basic rights, but conventions manufactured in context to certain artificially imposed systems of society.

By reverting to the same argument while having not yet responded to claims that such things are not entirely meritable or accurate; is intellectual dishonesty. Something is not a right because it's desired, it's a right because there's valid reasons to be.

And Valid reason is not "well the men can do it, why can't she?" That's a childish line of reasoning. Such arguments are things spoiled children ask, it has to be more than that.

To say they're being treated as sub-humans because they are not identical to men or being allotted male modes of behavior is insinuating that Male Behavior defines humanity in total. So in that it enters a contradiction with the premise of the argument itself.

Both men and women are humans, A woman is as human giving life from her womb as a man is a human working to support his family. If one feels that a woman is not being a human by doing so. Then the problem is not the condition of women, but one's own ideals of humanity. Change what one deems as the ideals of humanity and one will not feel that women are subhuman.

There are legitimate concerns, like extreme seclusion; but extreme seclusion and protection of Mahram is not the same. Extreme seclusion is laziness of Mahram from fulfilling their own duty. Right to have income is already enshrined in Islaam, but right of income does not surpass responsibilities of family; this is a privilege of income. Duty of income is upon males, not women, so her income is luxury, not necessity. Likewise with business.

There is no harm in her having an education or having skills in fact that is also a duty, because there maybe a tiome where she must produce income in necessity, for example death of husband or family members, or husband's income is not fully capable or providing for family due to whatever economic issues.

We shouldn't go to the Capitalist extremes or Taliban extremes; the type of free expression being proposed under the false disguise of free expression is actually just exploitation of women, and that's the most degraded state for women to be; that's worse than subhuman, that's being merely a toy.

[Badlun]

I am travelling but will be writing my part II on the status of Pashtun woman in Pashtun society specially in the light of the replies to the Part I.

[Badlun]

On the occasion of the international day of women I would like to remind to the Pashtun themselves and to the comity of nations that liberating 35 million Pashtun women is still a burden on the conscience of Pashtuns and the Human rights organizations.

Pashtun women do not have basic rights of free movement, education, free expression and have to be liberated from the clutches of the male chauvinism, Taliban, terrorism, obscurantism, extremism and all other evils. In the whole urban Pashtun society you may not see a single Pashtun woman engaged in any economic activity like trade and commerce. They will have toi be emancipated from the prison of the four walls of their houses to be a free human being like their fellow men.

[SiiNii]

If you were the director of this change what how would you start, what's the projected time line?

Pashtun women do not have basic rights of free movement

How so? Female Pashtuns are sitting MPs

[Badlun]

Its an issue of the millions of Pashtun women I being director of a project cannot chalk out a strategy for the solution to the whole problem but I will need support of some of the educated Pashtun women, men and few Pashtun parliamentarians , NGOs, Human right organizations , UN , Governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan and all others interested in women issues. I will reproduce below my article alraedy given above from which you can have an idea what to do and how to do

Pashtun woman, a challenge to the conscience of the Humanity and human rights groups.

The status of Pashtun woman in this modern era is challenge to the humanity as a whole and the human rights groups specially. Status of Pashtun women is worse then that of a dog. Because a dog has liberty to move around but a Pashtun woman has to pass her whole life in the prison of the four walls of her house, even a dog has fundamental freedom of movement but a Pashtun woman has none!

I practically see that 95% of Pashtun women in Pakistan and Afghanistan pass their whole life within the limits of their houses, the only exceptions is that when they go to hospitals or relatives homes, many times fully covered and accompanied by a male guardian. Is it a life worthy to lead? Why about 30 millions Pashtun women are socially imprisoned.

There are many other rights like inheritance which must be given to Pashtun women. That with modern education the things are changing but I think once the Pashtun women have the basic right of free movement then they can go to universities and colleges and can participate in social events freely not necessarily under the command of their male Guardians .We must treat Pashtun women as human beings equal to men not a dependent on their men whether husbands, fathers, brothers or sons.

Let’s start a movement to liberate the 30 million Pashtun women who are prisoners in their own homes. They are born within the 4 walls and die within the 4 walls of their houses. They are sentenced with life time imprisonment. How can we liberate Pashtun women from this life time imprisonment? Let’s think and act in the right direction.

For ameliorating the status of Pashtun woman we have to take start from the scratch, from zero. We have to do some thing to take out Pashtun woman from the quagmire they have been fallen by so called Pashtun traditions, Pashtun society, Pashtun chauvinist men and false ideas and wrongly interpreted injunctions of religion and dictates of mullahs.

Some friends think that Pashtuns as a whole, both men and women are downtrodden so talking only of women is not justified.

I agree that Pashtuns as a nation, as a race, both men and women are suffering. We don’t have a single Nobel Prize holder, a single world level scientist or technologist, or philosopher or scholar etc. Yes we have suicide bombers, terrorists, Taliban, dacoits, robbers, all negative, nothing positive.

But here the theme of this article is even the worse status of women, who don’t have the basic right of movement and expression. We have to break their chains; men at least have these rights. They are economically better than women. Women totally depend on their men partners socially and economically. Situation of Pashtun women is many times worse than Pashtun men.

All of us have great ideas for the development and improvement of the status of Pashtun women but what remains is the implementation strategy. How to implement all these ideas. Charity begins at home. Let’s start from our sisters, mothers, wives, daughters, cousins, friends etc and then to expand the sphere of influence to other sectors of society. Education especially modern education and democracy are the excellent panaceas for all the ills of the Pashtun women.

We must launch a campaign against all kinds of obscurantist and fundamentalist Mullahs, Taliban and their Madrassas specially the extremist Deobandi ,Wahabi , Ahle Hadith and Salafi ones.

However the best struggle can be through peaceful means, by education, internet, youth societies, encouraging Pashtun women and men by various motivational means to understand the dilapidated status of Pashtun women in Pashtun society and adopt all ways and means to change this horrible status of Pashtun women.

Our focus should be Pashtun woman, not Pakistani woman or Muslim woman. We must think on the status of Pashtun woman whether she is in Pakistan or Afghanistan or anywhere else because Pashtun woman on account of the lethal combination of Pashtunwali and so called extremist Islam is suffering because of the traditions and tenets which are barbaric, inhuman, cruel and demonic.

There is a dire need of launching of an awareness campaign that Pashtun woman first must understand their position where they are. Then take steps to improve the situation in such a way that the traditional family system remains undisturbed but woman starts enjoying their fundamental rights of choice, expression and movement and education.

Government, Taliban and Mullahs Islam -all these may be some of the reasons of the downtrodden condition of Pashtun woman but for me the amalgam of Pashtunwali and the traditional Islam of Taliban and Mullahs is the biggest cause and on these two fronts we have to fight to improve the status of woman in Pashtun society .

On religious front there is a need of reformation and telling the Pashtun woman that they can participate in day to day activities like the wives of the Prophet and his companions. On Pashtunwali front we have to educate our Pashtun men that Pashtun woman is not the sole depositary for his honor and Pashtunwali. If his wife, sister, mother, or daughter goes around and does some business, participates in social , political and economic or educational activities or even religious activity like going to mosques, then its not the end of the world. He should not feel mortified that his woman is talking to others or doing business with others and that this is against his, honor, ghairat or Pashtunwali.

Pashtun woman is equally an independent Pashtun. A Pashtun man and Pashtun woman should deal each other on equality basis, not one superior or inferior to other ,like a perfect pair based on mutual respect, love and understanding not a boss and subordinate relationship.

I wish that all the Pashtun women are liberated from the prison of their houses with the honor of Pashtunwali but with their liberty of movement and expression and economic activities.

I need comments, feed back from Pashtun sisters and brothers that how can we liberate millions of Pashtun women from their jails in the shape of their homes. Is it possible to start a Pashtun women movement for liberating them from the clutches of their male masters, enabling them to move freely , to get education where they want and join jobs where they wish.

How can we further control this wave of Talibanization who are bent upon destroying girls’ schools in many Pashtun lands? Can we do any thing or we should leave Pashtun women at the mercy of these barbaric wolves

Pragmatism with idealism and realism with vision and imagination should be used to solve all problems and in this context the solution to the Problems of Pashtun women lies in the panacea of great ideas of democracy with its implementation in all social and political spheres and the implementation of the philosophical concepts of liberty, equality and fraternity by modern education and religious reformation and reinterpretation. We must take start from own families, homes, villages, towns, cities and countries to bring a positive change in the status of Pashtun woman.
Pashtun women dress is an important issue. More than 90 % Pashtun women even can’t show their faces in public. They have to cover their whole body like we cover a corpse in coffin. Saudi Arabia and Pashtun areas in Afghanistan and Pakistan (Pashtunland) are the only two examples even in Muslim world where women are obliged to cover their faces. This is a clear absurdity, an extreme stupidity in this modern era that you don’t let a human being even not to show her face.

However we should avoid extremes of shuttle cock burkas and mini skirts. If a Pashtun woman is a professional lady , if she is intelligent, if she is knowledgeable, if she is intellectual and she is Pashtun by race and by practice , she speaks Pashto, she writes Pashto , she teaches Pashto to her children - all these are important , not how she lives, where she lives , she wears skirt or paint shirt or kamees partug -these are non essential for me ,-however we should avoid both the extremes-mini skirt and shuttle cock burKa are two extremes , we should find a middle way especially when a Pashtun woman live in Pashtunland till the time comes when dress does not remain an important issue as we see now a days in modern developed world of Europe, America etc.

Marriage of Pashtun woman is also an important issue. Specially the early marriages, the purely arranged marriages etc. However the religious aspect of marriage of Pashtun men or women with Muslims or non Muslims is not my concern. Its some body individual right how to marry and where to marry. My main concern is the social, legal and economic situation of Pashtun women.

We should admit that Pashtun women have lots of social, legal and economic problems .We have to liberate Pashtun women -the 35 million Pashtun women living like slaves are to be liberated. Its a big challenge for human rights organizations and for all those who have little bit of conscience.

One argument is that we should wait till other more important problems of Pashtun society are solved, and then we shall concentrate on gender and Pashtun women issues.

But we must realize that Pashtun women are 50% of Pashtun population. They are part of Pashto and Pashtunwali. We can’t wait till the times when everything will be all right with Pashtuns then we shall tackle the gender issue. It’s not an unimportant issue-its part and parcel of the whole reformation and development scheme for Pashtuns. It’s not a secondary issue. We have to take it up with war footings basis-it’s a burning issue. Pashtuns politics, culture, religion, society, international relations, education, all are related to Pashtun women too.

Pashtun women problems solution is concomitant with Pashtun problems in general. We have to adopt a holistic approach not a piece meal one. How can a Pashtun ignore for the time being the problems of his mother, wife, sister, and daughter-no way.

The emancipation of Pashtun women has political dimension but its more a religious, cultural, educational, psychological, legal and social issue. Our society, family, culture, laws, misinterpretation of religion and less opportunities of education are the main factors for the downtrodden situation of Pashtun women. As I earlier said charity begins at home. We may take start from own homes from our own wives, sisters, daughters and even mothers (I am facing a tough time with my mother. it’s very difficult to make her understand about the situation of Pashtun women).

It’s also my observation that even women themselves are great obstacle in the way of improvement of the situation of Pashtun women. Many times a mother does not wish the betterment of her own daughter. She is responsible for the wrong marriage of her daughter-she does not let her daughter to get modern education etc.

We should educate girls for good marriages and for leading a happy and full life. Those who are not educated formally may be educated informally or non formally. We must begin the charity at our own homes. Problems like early marriages, marriages without consent, purely arranged marriages etc may be discouraged with full strength. There are even such Pashtun women who can’t go to hospitals and even they have to deliver their babies at homes in the hands of elderly women or unskilled maids.

I wish some friends from Pakistan and Afghanistan may share with us the literacy rate of Pashtun women in Pakistan and Afghanistan. I tried my best but could not get the required data.

There are also some so called idealists and visionaries who think that gender issues no more exist in Pashtun society and that only general economic problems for both men and women exist but no women specific problems exist any more!

I would like to remind to these friends that what about the girls schools issue in the Swat and other Pashtun regions?? Why Taliban are adamant on destroying only Pashtun girls’ schools? What about the hijab/pardah/veil/burqa Issue of Pashtun women? What about the inheritance and evidence issues of Pashtun women? What about the forced and early marriages of Pashtun girls? What about selling of Pashtun women by the name of marriages?

What about the economic opportunities issues for Pashtun women in Pashtun world? Have you seen a single Pashtun women for example a shopkeeper in the whole specially rural areas of Pashtun land? Majority of Pashtun women still depend economically and financially on their men. Can you imagine of a Pashtun lawyer in district courts in Pashtun areas'?

Can a Pashtun woman walk, travel and move freely and alone in Pashtun villages. How much is the percentage of Pashtun boys and girls in universities and colleges? And many more like these.

Pashtun women issues of discrimination exist and is in the worst form. We can’t portray a rosy picture or mix men problems with women problems. I agree there are common problems of Pashtun men and women like poverty but there are many problems which are only and only women specific.

Many Pashtun women adjust themselves with the situation and accept the reality. My mother is also like that. She does not want any change, any freedom. She is happy where she is. All the time at home except when has to go hospital or any ceremony!

Some friends think that Pashtun women face problems only in poor families but in the well off families too I have seen they don’t allow their female members to do whatever they want in a genuine manner. They are mostly at mercy of the male members. They may go to co education institutions but may not allow the girls to choose their life partner at their own sweet will. And how many well off families we have? Few in big cities. Majority of Pashtuns live in rural areas and they are either poor or middle class. Especially in tribal and mountainous areas the situation is worst.

There are various women rights organizations and feminists but not in Pashtun areas first because Pashtuns don’t let such organizations to work in their areas, second the world has not become conscious so far of the women issues in Pashtun society. We are engaged in many other areas like terrorism and political issues and the women problems have been put at back burner.


We need to build our society from bottom up and that a proper background has to be set for any change that we want to see in our society. We must bring the change in a pragmatic and effective way.

Pashtun code of life or Pashtunwali is the basic right which all Pashtun women should have but first the Pashtun basic code or Pashtunwali is not very well defined, not in written shape so far like a constitution or a legal penal or civil code and thus may not be implemented as such and many times it is abused like the honor killings of Pashtun women based on this code. Often the whole code revolves around women honor while the code says nothing of the women rights.

The gender Equality is a technical issue. I have seen that one factor for the progress of the West is gender equality. They don’t keep half of their population at homes but utilize them as human resource whether male or female. The only biological difference of reproduction mechanism of woman and man makes not a big difference. How many children will be born by a woman, 1, 2 , not dozens like by Pashtun women. Women are there in the West every where, astronauts, pilots, truck drivers, shop keepers, industrialists, mangers, teachers, etc .The gender does not stop them doing any thing. Gender is more a psychological and social issue than biological. I don’t see where in West the gender equality was a failure. only their family system is disturbed but that may not happen in the Pashtun society.

Girls’ schools issue is an issue of Pashtun society. Why it does not happen in a non Pashtun society majority of these enemies of women education , the Taliban etc are so called Pashtuns unfortunately.

Hijab and BURQA is a serious issue. It stops the free movement of women in Pashtun society and they always need a Pashtun man to guard them. Once the Pashtun women come to streets with out hijab, at least their faces open ,the Pashtun men curiosity will be satisfied and hen it will become a normal scene for them to see women as in Punjab or west or other Islamic countries like Malaysia or Turkey.

Similarly evidence and inheritance are basic issues. Pashtun women must get their equal share in inheritance for their economic independence and they may not need to bring 4 witnesses to show they are violated and two Pashtun women may not be equal to one man in evidence. Here we need religious reformation or reinterpretation of Quranic injunctions.

Let’s create awareness about the status of the Pashtun woman in the modern world so they can come to our rescue and at the same time we should be catalysts for change in our society and me models for others. Let’s establish and cooperate with NGOs working on women issues. Let’s convey our concerns to the government, women ministries and UN engaged in women related activities. Let’s do whatever possible to liberate Pashtun women from their life time imprisonment.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

all of those issues that deprive Pashtun women rights is rooted in Pashtun culture and Pashtunwali itself

[Khostai]

If you were the director of this change what how would you start, what's the projected time line?


How so? Female Pashtuns are sitting MPs

-_- Really are you that ignorant about your own country? Did you even lived in Afghanistan or are you an Afghan? Becuase this is the most dumbest thing that I have ever heard here.

[Badlun]

all of those issues that deprive Pashtun women rights is rooted in Pashtun culture and Pashtunwali itself

Yes so called Pashtun culture and Pashtunwali can be blamed for some of the evils regarding Pashtun women but I will also blame equally the misinterpretation of religion and secluding Pashtun women as a virtuous and pious act by Pashtuns because of the religious injunctions. Both misuse of religion and Pashtunwali are to be blamed.