When/why did our cuisines diverge so much?

[Pukhtoon]

I have read the thread very well and still my opinion is that on both sides Pashtuns still have similar food except in commercial and urban venues. In kandahar you may have the so called Afghan food in restaurants but at homes mainly people have traditional food. The same is true for any Pashtun village any where in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

On commercial level you will very much find Afghan food in Peshawar, Islamabad, Quetta, Karachi even Lahore in the same way you find it in Kandahar, Jalal Abad or Kabul. There is no as such any Afghan food. It is the same central Asian food which you also find in India with addition of few other dishes mainly of lentils and pulses.

To summarize Pashtun on both sides of the border have similar food at their homes and rural areas. In commercial places you have Afghan food which is almost the same you find in India and Pakistan. The origin of this elaborated food is Central Asia not Afghanistan.

lol - what you just mentioned has nothing to do with what you originally posted about how Afghan cuisine is of borrowed origin which was completely irrelevant to a thread that admitted that and was just asking why the borrowed dishes didn't spread all over the Pashtoon areas instead of only the modern-day Afghanistan portion. Further, to say that Pakistani cuisine and Afghan cuisine are similar is really off. I agree Pakistani and Indian cuisine are very similar because of their common origin but as between Afghan and Pakistani/Indian dishes, we use different spices in different ways, taste, preparation, etc. are all different. Just because a dish has a common ingredient or kind of looks the same doesn't make it the same.

And your 100% wrong about what you will find in someone's home versus at a restaurant - this restaurant idea is really silly. People start cooking dishes personally and then it reaches the commercial level. I don't think you have been to many peoples homes in Afghanistan because our food is vastly different from Pakistani food - they are distinct or they wouldn't be labeled differently. They have their own cuisine and we have ours - they taste much different, use different spices, different methods of preparation, etc.

I don't know which Pashtoon villages your talking about but if you go to any Afghans house Pashtoon or non-Pashtoon they make the same dishes with variations, i.e., making Bolani in a Tawa versus fried, different bread preparations unique to the region, etc. Outside from that, its different then South Asian cooking. Paratha and Bolani are different, Kidney bean dishes are different, any daal we make is prepared differently, Mantoo and Aushak and our Aush dishes are different or completely absent from South Asian cooking, Qabili, Yaqoot Pallow, Pallow, Challow, Zamarod Pallow, Narjen Pallow are either non existent in Pakistani cooking or completely different, Dolma, Eggplant, Okra, all are way different. Some Afghans or Pakistanis might make each others dishes, but its not widespread at all and its why their still considered unique to each country and not a common dish.

No unbiased person can actually sample standard Afghan and Pakistani cuisine and argue their not different in taste, preparation, and spice mixtures.

So, in sum, Pashtoons in Afghanistan have borrowed dishes that they now all commonly make and consider their own while Pashtoons on the other side of the Durrand never did for whatever reason and ended up borrowing dishes from another group, i.e., South Asians versus Afghan Pashtoons borrowing from Turkic peoples. However, because of each set of Pashtoons borrowing from different peoples, we do not have a common cuisine anymore as the adoption of these borrowed dishes have become so widespread that you can no longer separate them from either Pakistani Pashtoons or Afghan Pashtoons.

[Midnight_Sun]

So, in sum, Pashtoons in Afghanistan have borrowed dishes that they now all commonly make and consider their own while Pashtoons on the other side of the Durrand never did for whatever reason and ended up borrowing dishes from another group, i.e., South Asians versus Afghan Pashtoons borrowing from Turkic peoples. However, because of each set of Pashtoons borrowing from different peoples, we do not have a common cuisine anymore as the adoption of these borrowed dishes have become so widespread that you can no longer separate them from either Pakistani Pashtoons or Afghan Pashtoons.

The cuisines are very similar though. I think there is one thing that binded them together, and that is Moghul empire. The qormas, minced beef, lavish rice dish (Qaboli palow), and Kabobs stemmed from this period, in my opinion.

[Kushan Prince]

The cuisines are very similar though. I think there is one thing that binded them together, and that is Moghul empire. The qormas, minced beef, lavish rice dish (Qaboli palow), and Kabobs stemmed from this period, in my opinion.

Errr wrong.

Kabali palow was reported to have been served to Alexanders troops back in Afghanistan therefore having ancient roots.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Kabali palow was reported to have been served to Alexanders troops back in Afghanistan therefore having ancient roots.

Proof?

[Kushan Prince]

Proof?

read it a long time ago somewhere on wiki Can't find the article right now.

[Midnight_Sun]

Errr wrong.

Kabali palow was reported to have been served to Alexanders troops back in Afghanistan therefore having ancient roots.

For one, I am just stating my opinion, take it with a grain of salt. But if I am wrong, the burden of proof lies with you. Herodotus never mentioned Qaboli palow.

[Badlun]

lol - what you just mentioned has nothing to do with what you originally posted about how Afghan cuisine is of borrowed origin which was completely irrelevant to a thread that admitted that and was just asking why the borrowed dishes didn't spread all over the Pashtoon areas instead of only the modern-day Afghanistan portion. Further, to say that Pakistani cuisine and Afghan cuisine are similar is really off. I agree Pakistani and Indian cuisine are very similar because of their common origin but as between Afghan and Pakistani/Indian dishes, we use different spices in different ways, taste, preparation, etc. are all different. Just because a dish has a common ingredient or kind of looks the same doesn't make it the same.

And your 100% wrong about what you will find in someone's home versus at a restaurant - this restaurant idea is really silly. People start cooking dishes personally and then it reaches the commercial level. I don't think you have been to many peoples homes in Afghanistan because our food is vastly different from Pakistani food - they are distinct or they wouldn't be labeled differently. They have their own cuisine and we have ours - they taste much different, use different spices, different methods of preparation, etc.

I don't know which Pashtoon villages your talking about but if you go to any Afghans house Pashtoon or non-Pashtoon they make the same dishes with variations, i.e., making Bolani in a Tawa versus fried, different bread preparations unique to the region, etc. Outside from that, its different then South Asian cooking. Paratha and Bolani are different, Kidney bean dishes are different, any daal we make is prepared differently, Mantoo and Aushak and our Aush dishes are different or completely absent from South Asian cooking, Qabili, Yaqoot Pallow, Pallow, Challow, Zamarod Pallow, Narjen Pallow are either non existent in Pakistani cooking or completely different, Dolma, Eggplant, Okra, all are way different. Some Afghans or Pakistanis might make each others dishes, but its not widespread at all and its why their still considered unique to each country and not a common dish.

No unbiased person can actually sample standard Afghan and Pakistani cuisine and argue their not different in taste, preparation, and spice mixtures.

So, in sum, Pashtoons in Afghanistan have borrowed dishes that they now all commonly make and consider their own while Pashtoons on the other side of the Durrand never did for whatever reason and ended up borrowing dishes from another group, i.e., South Asians versus Afghan Pashtoons borrowing from Turkic peoples. However, because of each set of Pashtoons borrowing from different peoples, we do not have a common cuisine anymore as the adoption of these borrowed dishes have become so widespread that you can no longer separate them from either Pakistani Pashtoons or Afghan Pashtoons.

I agree that spices used by Indian/Punjabi food are not the same as those of Afghan or Pashtun food. But because of Central Asian and Moghul influence names of the dishes, its preparation and presentation are almost the same. There are only two dishes in the above mentioned list which are not found on Indian side.

Whatever differences are there between Afghan food and Indian/Punjabi is between Afghan and Punjabi, Indian, Sindhi or Balochi not between Afghan Pashtun and Pakistani Pashtun food.

If one find a difference that will be regional not on the basis of Afghanistani or Pakistani Pashtun areas. For example food served in Kandahar may be different than the food in Kunar but the food at Kunar may be the same as you find in Dir or Swat. Similarly the food at Quetta will be similar to the food in Kandahar but different from the one in Peshawar.

We may not exaggerate the differences between Pakistani and Afghan Pashtuns. No doubt because of different political environments they have political differences but these differences have not yet reached to cultural differences. They are still the same people at least ethnically and culturally.

[Pukhtoon]

I agree that spices used by Indian/Punjabi food are not the same as those of Afghan or Pashtun food. But because of Central Asian and Moghul influence names of the dishes, its preparation and presentation are almost the same. There are only two dishes in the above mentioned list which are not found on Indian side.

Whatever differences are there between Afghan food and Indian/Punjabi is between Afghan and Punjabi, Indian, Sindhi or Balochi not between Afghan Pashtun and Pakistani Pashtun food.

If one find a difference that will be regional not on the basis of Afghanistani or Pakistani Pashtun areas. For example food served in Kandahar may be different than the food in Kunar but the food at Kunar may be the same as you find in Dir or Swat. Similarly the food at Quetta will be similar to the food in Kandahar but different from the one in Peshawar.

We may not exaggerate the differences between Pakistani and Afghan Pashtuns. No doubt because of different political environments they have political differences but these differences have not yet reached to cultural differences. They are still the same people at least ethnically and culturally.

I still wholeheartedly disagree. The majority of our dishes do not taste the same at all and many of which are non-existant in a general sense in each other's cuisine. I would be shocked if you are a guest at some Afghan Pashtoons home and they come out with some Biryani or to a Pakistani Pashtoons home and they serve you Zamarod Pallow. Biryani is made of rice, and you might sprinkle in some raisins, but it doesn't make it Qabili and Qabili doesn't become't Biryani just because you give it dum, there different. Partha isn't Peerakay/Bolane although both might be stuffed with potatos, they taste way different and have different roots. A ghormah/qormah might both use chicken and tomato in it but it doesn't make them the same because they differ in their taste, preparation, presentation, etc.

I have Pakistani Pashtoon friends and they don't cook really anything the same as Afghan Pashtoons its all about 100% the same as something I would eat in a Pakistani Punjabi's home and if you go to an Afghan Pashtoons home you eat about 100% the same food as you would in an Afghan Tajik or Uzbeks home. Half of the dishes I mentioned my Pakistani Pashtoon friends have never seen. They know Qabili from restaurants and always say oh this is "Likka Biryani" or if you bring them Peerakai they will say "Likka Paratha. They also always ask how to make "Afghanay Khoraak." If our cuisines were so similar, they wouldn't constantly liken Afghan Pashtoon food to something on the Pakistani side, they wouldn't ask how to prepare Afghan food and they wouldn't call it Afghanay Khoraak, if something is your own you don't refer to it as something foreign.

Our cuisines are different because we have borrowed from different ethnic groups and the whole thread was just asking why we didn't all borrow from the same group, i.e., Uzbeks/Tajiks since we were one country and they were the non-Pashtoon ethnic group that lived with us then. I understand now Pashtoons live with Punjabi's et. al. and Afghan Pashtoons still with the same Uzbek/Tajiks, but my question was about why the borrowed Turkic dishes didn't spread when Pashtoons weren't a part of any South Asian country.

As to our cultural differences, I have mentioned this on other threads that it varies greatly depending on which part of each country your talking about. You mentioned Quetta, and as an example, Quettawal seem like just greater Kandahar to me or Kandahar greater Quetta (whatever a person prefers) - if you go from Afghanistan to Quetta the feeling of being in a different country or people is not palpable at all but if you go other areas it is. So I think many factors, even cuisine has helped to divide us more as a people but maybe it will change positively over time.

[hiraaa112]

I still wholeheartedly disagree. The majority of our dishes do not taste the same at all and many of which are non-existant in a general sense in each other's cuisine. I would be shocked if you are a guest at some Afghan Pashtoons home and they come out with some Biryani or to a Pakistani Pashtoons home and they serve you Zamarod Pallow. Biryani is made of rice, and you might sprinkle in some raisins, but it doesn't make it Qabili and Qabili doesn't become't Biryani just because you give it dum, there different. Partha isn't Peerakay/Bolane although both might be stuffed with potatos, they taste way different and have different roots. A ghormah/qormah might both use chicken and tomato in it but it doesn't make them the same because they differ in their taste, preparation, presentation, etc.

I have Pakistani Pashtoon friends and they don't cook really anything the same as Afghan Pashtoons its all about 100% the same as something I would eat in a Pakistani Punjabi's home and if you go to an Afghan Pashtoons home you eat about 100% the same food as you would in an Afghan Tajik or Uzbeks home. Half of the dishes I mentioned my Pakistani Pashtoon friends have never seen. They know Qabili from restaurants and always say oh this is "Likka Biryani" or if you bring them Peerakai they will say "Likka Paratha. They also always ask how to make "Afghanay Khoraak." If our cuisines were so similar, they wouldn't constantly liken Afghan Pashtoon food to something on the Pakistani side, they wouldn't ask how to prepare Afghan food and they wouldn't call it Afghanay Khoraak, if something is your own you don't refer to it as something foreign.

Our cuisines are different because we have borrowed from different ethnic groups and the whole thread was just asking why we didn't all borrow from the same group, i.e., Uzbeks/Tajiks since we were one country and they were the non-Pashtoon ethnic group that lived with us then. I understand now Pashtoons live with Punjabi's et. al. and Afghan Pashtoons still with the same Uzbek/Tajiks, but my question was about why the borrowed Turkic dishes didn't spread when Pashtoons weren't a part of any South Asian country.

As to our cultural differences, I have mentioned this on other threads that it varies greatly depending on which part of each country your talking about. You mentioned Quetta, and as an example, Quettawal seem like just greater Kandahar to me or Kandahar greater Quetta (whatever a person prefers) - if you go from Afghanistan to Quetta the feeling of being in a different country or people is not palpable at all but if you go other areas it is. So I think many factors, even cuisine has helped to divide us more as a people but maybe it will change positively over time.

This is a really good post, because so many people don't seem to understand that even though Pakistani and Afghan Pashtun are one ethnicity, over the past century they have evolved culturally. I never understood the difference between us, I thought because we spoke the same language we were exactly the same but recently my Pakistani Pashtun friend got engaged to an Afghan Pashtun. At the engagement party when you looked at the two sides of the room you could see the difference, even in looks, way of dressing, way of dancing and the food was definitely not the same.

[Badlun]

I still wholeheartedly disagree. The majority of our dishes do not taste the same at all and many of which are non-existant in a general sense in each other's cuisine. I would be shocked if you are a guest at some Afghan Pashtoons home and they come out with some Biryani or to a Pakistani Pashtoons home and they serve you Zamarod Pallow. Biryani is made of rice, and you might sprinkle in some raisins, but it doesn't make it Qabili and Qabili doesn't become't Biryani just because you give it dum, there different. Partha isn't Peerakay/Bolane although both might be stuffed with potatos, they taste way different and have different roots. A ghormah/qormah might both use chicken and tomato in it but it doesn't make them the same because they differ in their taste, preparation, presentation, etc.

I have Pakistani Pashtoon friends and they don't cook really anything the same as Afghan Pashtoons its all about 100% the same as something I would eat in a Pakistani Punjabi's home and if you go to an Afghan Pashtoons home you eat about 100% the same food as you would in an Afghan Tajik or Uzbeks home. Half of the dishes I mentioned my Pakistani Pashtoon friends have never seen. They know Qabili from restaurants and always say oh this is "Likka Biryani" or if you bring them Peerakai they will say "Likka Paratha. They also always ask how to make "Afghanay Khoraak." If our cuisines were so similar, they wouldn't constantly liken Afghan Pashtoon food to something on the Pakistani side, they wouldn't ask how to prepare Afghan food and they wouldn't call it Afghanay Khoraak, if something is your own you don't refer to it as something foreign.

Our cuisines are different because we have borrowed from different ethnic groups and the whole thread was just asking why we didn't all borrow from the same group, i.e., Uzbeks/Tajiks since we were one country and they were the non-Pashtoon ethnic group that lived with us then. I understand now Pashtoons live with Punjabi's et. al. and Afghan Pashtoons still with the same Uzbek/Tajiks, but my question was about why the borrowed Turkic dishes didn't spread when Pashtoons weren't a part of any South Asian country.

As to our cultural differences, I have mentioned this on other threads that it varies greatly depending on which part of each country your talking about. You mentioned Quetta, and as an example, Quettawal seem like just greater Kandahar to me or Kandahar greater Quetta (whatever a person prefers) - if you go from Afghanistan to Quetta the feeling of being in a different country or people is not palpable at all but if you go other areas it is. So I think many factors, even cuisine has helped to divide us more as a people but maybe it will change positively over time.

Why we do not understand this simple fact that both Biryani and zamarud Polaw are not Pashtun dishes. Both are foreign but now adopted by Pashtuns to some extent. In Pakistan still in many rural areas Birynai is not known and they just prepare the same simple rice dishes like spiney wrijey with shawda/pai or masta and ghwarhi not biryani or polaw on both sides of the Duran line.

Please try to understand that pure Pashtuns cuisine(on both sides) is one thing and Pashtun food influenced by Central Asian and Indian cuisine is another thing.

[Karachi]

the food in Peshawar is probably influenced by punjabi/indian food, because Peshawar technically has always been a gateway to the subcontinent from central asia. So basically Peshawar has been under the influence off south and central asia, both

but the tribal foods from both sides are probably 100% same

[Badlun]

This is a really good post, because so many people don't seem to understand that even though Pakistani and Afghan Pashtun are one ethnicity, over the past century they have evolved culturally. I never understood the difference between us, I thought because we spoke the same language we were exactly the same but recently my Pakistani Pashtun friend got engaged to an Afghan Pashtun. At the engagement party when you looked at the two sides of the room you could see the difference, even in looks, way of dressing, way of dancing and the food was definitely not the same.

If you are for example from Mardan and take part in a wedding ceremony of a couple from Waziristan or Pashin you will find a lot of differences . The same way a Kandahari will find a lot of differences in a ceremony in Kunar. But the ceremonies will be almost the same in Dir and Kunar and Quetta and Kandahar. These differences are regional not political between two countries of Afghanistan and Pakistan. We have political differences but not cultural on countries bases.

[Pukhtoon]

Why we do not understand this simple fact that both Biryani and zamarud Polaw are not Pashtun dishes. Both are foreign but now adopted by Pashtuns to some extent. In Pakistan still in many rural areas Birynai is not known and they just prepare the same simple rice dishes like spiney wrijey with shawda/pai or masta and ghwarhi not biryani or polaw on both sides of the Duran line.

Please try to understand that pure Pashtuns cuisine(on both sides) is one thing and Pashtun food influenced by Central Asian and Indian cuisine is another thing.

I have about zero problem understanding that the dishes were foreign, I don't even know why I'm responding to this because I think I already had this go-around with you several months ago so because all else has failed I will put in bold the points you seem to be missing. MY FIRST POSTS ALREADY SAY THAT THESE DISHES ARE BORROWED - WHETHER IT WAS BORROWED OR NOT IS NOT THE POINT OF THE THREAD.

The point of the thread is WHY DIDN'T WE BORROW THE SAME DISHES, from the same foreign group, i.e., Uzbeks/Tajiks since they were the only large minority in our country, Loiy Afghanistan, before Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa became a part of Pakistan. THESE BORROWED DISHES HAVE NOW BECOME A PART OF PASHTOON CUISINE therefore, we call it OUR CUISINE. These originally foreign dishes are as intertwined into an Afghan or Pakistani Pashtoon's cuisine as the word "kitaab" (Arabic) is intertwined into the Pashto language - you can no longer separate this word from Pukhto, it's too well entrenched and the dishes I mentioned are similarly entrenched in the cuisine of the Pashtoons on both sides of the Durrand whether it be dishes from Punjabis or Tajiks/Uzbeks.

Again, I ASSUMED since we were one country, we would of had much more overlap in cuisine then we actually do. People do not COMPLETELY forget every single dish in the course of 60 years that they ever knew or made because their country was merged into another.

If you say in rural areas they don't know any of these borrowed dishes, I still don't agree as I even know Kochyaan who make the same dishes as Afghan Pashtoons from the city or at least know of them, eat them, and consider them Afghan cuisine but even that aside, why no overlap in cuisine in city areas like Quetta and Pekhawar?

This is why what your saying doesn't make any sense because, again, you don't address the actual question in the post but rather just say whatever talking point is on your mind.

For any other response you will make on this subject, I repeat, this thread was ONLY ABOUT WHY WE (Pashtoons on both sides of the Durrand) DID NOT BORROW THE SAME DISHES SINCE WE WERE THE SAME COUNTRY AND THE ONLY FOREIGN CUISINE PRESENT WHILE WE WERE ONE COUNTRY SHOULD HAVE BEEN UZBEK/TAJIK CUISINE AND WHY THE ADOPTION OF SOME OF THEIR DISHES DID NOT BECOME SO WIDESPREAD TO BECOME ADOPTED ON BOTH SIDES OF THE DURRAND.

[Pukhtoon]

This is a really good post, because so many people don't seem to understand that even though Pakistani and Afghan Pashtun are one ethnicity, over the past century they have evolved culturally. I never understood the difference between us, I thought because we spoke the same language we were exactly the same but recently my Pakistani Pashtun friend got engaged to an Afghan Pashtun. At the engagement party when you looked at the two sides of the room you could see the difference, even in looks, way of dressing, way of dancing and the food was definitely not the same.

100% agree. At our core, our very deep down beliefs and how we look at things, I think were still the same. But from the outside looking in, we have changed tremendously, unfortunately. The less developed an area, the less of a difference you see and the more developed, the bigger the difference.

[Badlun]

ONLY ABOUT WHY WE (Pashtoons on both sides of the Durrand) DID NOT BORROW THE SAME DISHES SINCE WE WERE THE SAME COUNTRY AND THE ONLY FOREIGN CUISINE PRESENT WHILE WE WERE ONE COUNTRY SHOULD HAVE BEEN UZBEK/TAJIK CUISINE AND WHY THE ADOPTION OF SOME OF THEIR DISHES DID NOT BECOME SO WIDESPREAD TO BECOME ADOPTED ON BOTH SIDES OF THE DURRAND.

Geography, proximity and interaction of Pashtuns with Indians and Uzbeks/Tajiks etc is the prime factor of the divergent tendency of Pashtuns. Today's Pakistani Pashtuns were always closer geographically to Indians while Afghanistani Pashtuns to Uzbeks/Tajiks.

As Afghanistani Pashtuns today speak Dari while Pakistani Pashtuns are bilingual in Urdu, the same might have happened in cuisine.

What I have seen that because of geographical proximity dishes of Kunar are very similar or the same as I saw in Dir. The same can be found in case of Kandahar and Quetta.

An Ahmadzai wazir living in Waziristan of Pakistan will not cook differently than another Ahmadzai wazir living in Afghanistan however on regional level there may be differences in cuisine on both sides.

I think this difference of cuisine will be further minimized when Afghan dishes are introduced more and more in Paksitan and the same the other way round. As marriages are taking place in families on both sides of Durand line, the gap will be minimized.