When/why did our cuisines diverge so much?

[Pukhtoon]

Kushan Prince is a great Pashtun who is proud of the thousands years of Pashtuns' history and culture. I share with him this sentiment that every where Pashtuns are one linguistically, culturally, historically, anthropologically, ethnically , socially and even spiritually.

We should try to highlight the common grounds in Pashtuns , the converging factors and may not exaggerate the diverging factors like those of cuisine. Pashtuns neighbors of other nations will definitely have some influence but the core Pashtun remains one.

Pashtuns for examples on western side merge into Tajiks etc and speak Dari while in the East they merge into Panjabis and many like Nyazis leave even speaking Pashto and cook Punjabi food. The influence is regional not merely Aafghan or Pakistani.

This is what Kushan Prince feels about you, a Pakistani Pashtoon:

your people eat curry and other punjabi dishes.

He also uses the pejorative term "Paki" quite often to insult which is your country of nationalities, seeing as how KPK is in Pakistan. I haven't said anything negative about Pakistani Pashtoons despite being from the Afghan side whereas if you read the rest of the post, you will see I acted in the opposite fashion.

Further, this thread had nothing to do with core values of Pashtoons or bloodlines, it was about why we make different dishes which we undoubtedly do and which I have explained and re-explained and anyone who disagrees with that viewpoint has been unable to dispel it with sound logic and facts.

It's not the end of the world, I was just curious to know why since Pashtoons lived united under one country, Loiy Afghanistan, we didn't both (current-day Afghan and Pakistani Pashtoons) borrow from the same minority group which was then in our country.

The most logical response has been that we have never been a homogenous group even when we lived under one country and the Pakistan side has taken more from the Punjabi side and the Pakistan side and Afghans from Tajik/Turkic peoples. At our core, as I've said a few times already, our core beliefs were the same but other exterior things like cuisine we have diverged greatly.

I know you want to keep highlighting commonalities so to create unity but if people want to act like adults, its not the end of the world to address our differences especially when there about such a mundane, docile thing like cuisine.

[Kushan Prince]

This is what Kushan Prince feels about you, a Pakistani Pashtoon:



He also uses the pejorative term "Paki" quite often to insult which is your country of nationalities, seeing as how KPK is in Pakistan. I haven't said anything negative about Pakistani Pashtoons despite being from the Afghan side whereas if you read the rest of the post, you will see I acted in the opposite fashion.

Further, this thread had nothing to do with core values of Pashtoons or bloodlines, it was about why we make different dishes which we undoubtedly do and which I have explained and re-explained and anyone who disagrees with that viewpoint has been unable to dispel it with sound logic and facts.

It's not the end of the world, I was just curious to know why since Pashtoons lived united under one country, Loiy Afghanistan, we didn't both (current-day Afghan and Pakistani Pashtoons) borrow from the same minority group which was then in our country.

The most logical response has been that we have never been a homogenous group even when we lived under one country and the Pakistan side has taken more from the Punjabi side and the Pakistan side and Afghans from Tajik/Turkic peoples. At our core, as I've said a few times already, our core beliefs were the same but other exterior things like cuisine we have diverged greatly.

I know you want to keep highlighting commonalities so to create unity but if people want to act like adults, its not the end of the world to address our differences especially when there about such a mundane, docile thing like cuisine.

Badlun is from Afghanistan and me calling you a paki was out of mere trolling since you had the nerve to say Pashtun food was tajik.

Ofcourse i consider "Pakistani" Pashtuns Afghan.

[Pukhtoon]

Badlun is from Afghanistan and me calling you a paki was out of mere trolling since you had the nerve to say Pashtun food was tajik.

Ofcourse i consider "Pakistani" Pashtuns Afghan.

While your here why not address the other posts, your Wikipedia quotes and actually answering my posts or even proving you know Pashto? Khijawlat wokah, sharm wokah.

So you consider Pakistani Pashtoons Pashtoon, but ones that eat curry and other Punjabi dishes? Got it - that was completely not intended to call Pakistani Pashtoons Punjabis. And Badlun, from what I understand, is from Pakistan, not Afghanistan.

Ohoo, trolling day kuhrray dah? lol Loiy saray ye aw tir oosah nakhray kawee.

"Nerve" larum? lol ajab okhyaar shay ye. Khijawlat taw te ne wee chee tola kitaboona aw tareekh wayee chee di khoraak chee ze may wowaiyil dih bul khalig khoraak dah? Yaw kitaab maw te wukhuwah chee wayee chee daw shayaan yawaazay di Pukhtanoo khoraak dah.

Te mutlaqan bay mantiq insaan ye. Maw te wowaiyah, chee di tola Afghanay khoraak sara di Pukhtoono shoroo soo? Di tolay khoraak lih moog woo? Chee yawaazay naaray kawee mawnaw ne laree chee te sahee ye, o khalas chee te wowaiyil "TE PAKISTANI YE" likka yaw warrah jennay aw fikr kawee chee te yowur. Yaw kitaab wolwulah, di tareekh wulwalah, o wogoray chee daer shayaan lih zemoog khoraak aslan zemoog khoraak nedah. Daw kho kum khijawalatee ne dah.

Te ham pohaygay chee Badlun maw sara aqeedah laree? Hagha yawaazay wayee chee baiyad lig waiyum zemoog "differences" aw ziadatar waiyum zemoog"commonalities" zikka chee hagha ghwaray chee dawsay unity jour siway kho sara taw khaburree ham aqeedah ne day.

[Pakwatan]

Look! Enough with you *******s making fun of daal. It is food. A food that I enjoy thoroughly with keema.


You have to be a western piece of **** to make fun of food, because there are millions of people starving on this Earth. There are many people starving in Afghanistan, and my country Pakistan as well.

So when you eat your chapli kebab, ya kabuli palow tonight, think wtf you are saying.

Do the guys criticizing daal even keep roza?? Honestly, I don't think a lot of the guys on this forum do.

[Pukhtoon]

Look! Enough with you *******s making fun of daal. It is food. A food that I enjoy thoroughly with keema.


You have to be a western piece of **** to make fun of food, because there are millions of people starving on this Earth. There are many people starving in Afghanistan, and my country Pakistan as well.

So when you eat your chapli kebab, ya kabuli palow tonight, think wtf you are saying.

Do the guys criticizing daal even keep roza?? Honestly, I don't think a lot of the guys on this forum do.

I wholeheartedly agree with you - people here use it as a pejorative term. I think its interesting to talk about different topics like food and tracing back different influences but people turn that into a different type of debate.

Insha'Allah Allah (swt) make it so that all of our brothers and sisters are taken care of.

[Pakwatan]

I wholeheartedly agree with you - people here use it as a pejorative term. I think its interesting to talk about different topics like food and tracing back different influences but people turn that into a different type of debate.

Insha'Allah Allah (swt) make it so that all of our brothers and sisters are taken care of.

To be honest, it seems like many of the people that are making fun of daal in general probably got lucky with visa and stayed in western countries. Now that they are eating from Mcdonalds and Burger King, they come on here and insult people that do eat daal or other vegetables.

To them, I would like to say I am proud daal khor, but I am not a haram khor. So I a happy person.


And honestly, I thought this thread was excellent. You raised a very valid question.

Why did Afghan-Pashtun diet not carry over to Pakistani-Pashtun diet? I believe that is a very interesting question. I support your thread.

[Pukhtoon]

To be honest, it seems like many of the people that are making fun of daal in general probably got lucky with visa and stayed in western countries. Now that they are eating from Mcdonalds and Burger King, they come on here and insult people that do eat daal or other vegetables.

To them, I would like to say I am proud daal khor, but I am not a haram khor. So I a happy person.


And honestly, I thought this thread was excellent. You raised a very valid question.

Why did Afghan-Pashtun diet not carry over to Pakistani-Pashtun diet? I believe that is a very interesting question. I support your thread.

Thanks - just something I would like to mention is that there are tons of very good Muslims in the west, even more devout and strict then those you find in Muslim countries. I wouldn't take this forum as an accurate reflection of Pashtoons period let alone Pashtoons/Afghans in the west.

This place is an anomaly and not representative at all of the Afghans/Pashtoons I know from the west or from back home - I am often times shocked by some of the things I see here - most of the things you see are at the extreme end of the spectrum.

Because this is a "Pashtoon forum" lots of nationalists come here and it just so happens many of the nationalists are more concerned with ethnic causes and end up being less observant religiously.

Anyways though, appreciate the comments. People are what they are - I have respect for people that embrace instead of trying to contour what they really are into something foreign and more palatable to those foreign tastes.

[Karachi]

who cares people, it's just food. I enjoy every type of food, all cultures have different, but nice food

[Pakwatan]

who cares people, it's just food. I enjoy every type of food, all cultures have different, but nice food

Mashallah!


I agree with you 100%.

You put food in front of me, and I will not make faces or complain. As long as it is halal, I love all food.

[hiraaa112]

If you are for example from Mardan and take part in a wedding ceremony of a couple from Waziristan or Pashin you will find a lot of differences . The same way a Kandahari will find a lot of differences in a ceremony in Kunar. But the ceremonies will be almost the same in Dir and Kunar and Quetta and Kandahar. These differences are regional not political between two countries of Afghanistan and Pakistan. We have political differences but not cultural on countries bases.

I don't think this is true, because even in Dir etc, the wedding is the three days (mehndi, bharat, walima) with the traditional red dress etc, but I think in Afghanistan they wear the white dress? and they have green for engagement? And we do have cultural differences, apart from the wedding thing, what about clothes? Afghans wear the frock whilst Pakistani's are influenced heavily by indian fashions, if you walk through Peshawar, you'll see more bollywood style frocks etc than Afghan. What about dancing? at Pakistanti Pashtun weddings, yes there will be attan, but there will also be alot of bollywood dances to urdu songs and I don't think Afghans include that in their ceremonies.

[hiraaa112]

Also, sorry for getting off the point earlier.

This isn't exactly concrete information, but my mum said the food her grandmother would cook is a lot different to the food we cook at home now. She said when she was younger the food they would have was much, much blander and if her mum put any kind of spice in it, it would be a big thing (whilst now in our house everything has spices).

Saying that however, when I am at my dad's village every night the food is wrijay and masta lol and it isn't like the food I have in Peshawar. It is much blander and the variety a lot less, so I guess that ties in to the point about Peshawar being a gateway to other places, whilst the village remains relatively unaffected by neighbouring and outside influences.

This may not be true for the rest of Pashtuns, just my own experience of this topic

[Pukhtoon]

Also, sorry for getting off the point earlier.

This isn't exactly concrete information, but my mum said the food her grandmother would cook is a lot different to the food we cook at home now. She said when she was younger the food they would have was much, much blander and if her mum put any kind of spice in it, it would be a big thing (whilst now in our house everything has spices).

Saying that however, when I am at my dad's village every night the food is wrijay and masta lol and it isn't like the food I have in Peshawar. It is much blander and the variety a lot less, so I guess that ties in to the point about Peshawar being a gateway to other places, whilst the village remains relatively unaffected by neighbouring and outside influences.

This may not be true for the rest of Pashtuns, just my own experience of this topic

You were 100% on point throughout, no worries. And thank you for being honest and not just making things up to prove some hidden agenda. 100% agree, clothes, food, music, dancing, etc. are pretty stark in difference between us.

About the weddings, I agree, many Afghan Pashtoons, when seeing some of these things get very turned off because they see thigns they associate with Punjabis being recreated by Pakistani Pashtoons and then they wrongly jump to the conclusion (something most Pashtoons do, i.e., jumping to conclusions and zero-sum analysis) that they have adopted Punjabi culture in every respect.

Afghan's of all ethnicity are generally very negative about Pakistan which is why you see less of it incorporated into Afghan culture or events like weddings. The negativity probably stems as a result of being regional neighbors, the Durrand line question which was pushed pretty hard during our parent's generation, accusations of Pakistani interference in Afghanistan, the historical and blood association between Indians and Pakistanis, and more recently, some of the negative encounters they have had in Pakistan as refugees. For these reasons and others, Afghans typically will at least publicly disassociate themselves with anything Pakistani and look at any persons association with it negatively.

However, the farther away from either countries cities you get, the less that difference. It might be why the cuisine is different in your father's village versus at your home. For example, I've encountered many Peshawari Pukhtoons, probably Yusufzais by blood, and from not knowing their qowm, their fierce defense of anything Punjabi, their love and affinity for Punjabis to the point of picking them over an Afghan Pashtoon, etc. and then comparing them to the Yusufzais of Swat, even though many consider them at times "Pathan" they acted about 100% the same as any Afghan Pashtoon and the only way I could tell they weren't from the Afghan side was little differences in clothing and the very different food they cooked at home. Most of them don't ever have a problem saying I'm Afghan and use the word interchangeably with Pashtoon whereas you see that much less in urban centers like Pekhawar.

It's also interesting about the progression of spice in your home from your grandfather/grandmother's generation until now.
I think it highlights another subtlety in how we've (Pakistani/Afghan Pashtoons) grown apart in that the term "bland" comes up referring to the Afghan cuisine which is a term constantly used by Punjabis/Indians when eating Afghan food. Conversely, Afghans typically generalize Punjabi/Pakistani/Indian food as just a handful of chili pepper and so many spices that every dish tastes the same. This is just an observation on the micro-level, but it goes to show how we have adopted different generalities from other ethnic groups and highlights and unfortunately, how we relate more with foreign groups in our bias'.

[Badlun]

I don't think this is true, because even in Dir etc, the wedding is the three days (mehndi, bharat, walima) with the traditional red dress etc, but I think in Afghanistan they wear the white dress? and they have green for engagement? And we do have cultural differences, apart from the wedding thing, what about clothes? Afghans wear the frock whilst Pakistani's are influenced heavily by indian fashions, if you walk through Peshawar, you'll see more bollywood style frocks etc than Afghan. What about dancing? at Pakistanti Pashtun weddings, yes there will be attan, but there will also be alot of bollywood dances to urdu songs and I don't think Afghans include that in their ceremonies.

My family belongs to both Kunar(Afghanistan) and Dir(Pakistan) and I have participated in many marriage and other ceremonies and have never found any difference. Your wording mehendi, barat, walima are purely Urdu words and you may listen to these words in highly urbanized places like Peshawar but never in rural areas like Dir. There they use words like nakreezey, janj, da wada dodai etc.

If you go to places like Karak, Waziristan, Loralai, Peshin, Dara Adam Khel, Lakki, Cherat, Upper Dir, Jandool, all tribal areas you will find the men and women dressing themselves exactly the same way(frocks and loose trousers in case of women) as in Afghanistan.

No doubt Indian dresses and dances are influencing Pakistani dresses as western fashion is also encroaching every where in this globalized world but from this influence both Afghanistan and Pakistan are not immune. Pashtun women in Kabul may not put on the same dresses as we have in Kunar. The same goes for food that I personally find food in Kunar similar to that of Dir and different from Kabul.

[Badlun]

In spite of of my zeal for highlighting the converging points between Pashtuns in both the countries I am not blind to the gap which is increasing between them and an article written in this regard is reproduced below

I see Pashtuns talking about Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan (Greater Afghanistan) but I just see them talking no body is taking any action. These are all imaginative plans which have nothing to do with the reality so far. That’s why the only reality is the status quo, where we are. In the present circumstances nothing will change. Pakistan will never let its Pashtun parts to be ceded and Afghanistan is never asking for it or doing any thing for it. For Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan I don’t see any serious movement neither in Pakistan nor in Afghanistan.

Pashtun nationalist parties in Pakistan like ANP and PMAP are involved in pure Pakistani politics. They swear by the constitution of Pakistan and never talk of separation from Pakistan and joining Loy Afghanistan or creating Pashtunistan. I don’t see any mass movement in the streets of Pakistan for Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan. These are only internet slogans by very few Pashtuns but in the real life there is no struggle going on for these goals.

I don’t know any party or group like Baloch liberation Army fighting in the real sense for any independent Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan. Pashtun nationalists talk only of Pashtun rights within Pakistan but never talk of dismembering Pakistan and creating a new entity. We don’t see any struggle on the pattern of Bengalis for Bangladesh. Rather many Pakistanis are quite happy in Pakistan and will never look to the worn torn Afghanistan as their abode.

The same situation can be witnessed in Afghanistan. We don’t have a single party or group struggling for Loy Afghanistan or Pashtunistan. Afghan government never asks for Pashtunistan or Loy Afghanistan from Pakistan and will never sacrifice its non Pashtun parts for any pure Pashtun state. All non Pashtuns are considered equal Afghans and Afghanistan will never leave its non Pashtuns Afghans for Pashtuns of Pakistan. The only reality emerges in this scenario is the status quo. But it does not mean Pashtuns cease to be the same race or ethnic group. They remain brethren in Pashtunwali and speakers of the same language.


Keeping in view the reality of no possibility of any political unity, the only path remains is non political. I am extremely worried about the increasing distance between the Pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan. If some serious efforts are not taken Pashtuns on both sides of the border, Pashtuns will deem themselves as different races or ethnicities. Yes races or ethnicities because already they belong to two different nations, Pakistani and Afghanistani or afghan.

Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand line belong to one family, one blood, one language and one culture, one past but now being part of two different countries, distance is increasing between them. Pashtuns in Pakistan are coming under influence of Punjabis and Urdu speakers and Pashtuns in Afghanistan are coming under influence of Tajiks and Persian speakers.

We have to work and suggest that how Pashtuns on both sides can be culturally and linguistically united? Their cultural and linguistic unity is the only possibility as their political unity is now an unattainable dream. We have to devise pragmatic strategies that how distance between Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand line can be reduced and they may come together at least culturally psychologically and linguistically if not politically. Pashtuns must be realistic in their approach.

Some Pashtuns on both sides want merger of Pashtuns areas which is impossible as how Afghanistan will leave its non -Pashtun areas to be merged with Pashtun areas for a greater Pashtunistan. This is impossible, and how Pakistan will let its Pashtun areas to be separated, that would be too impossible for Pakistan.

As the distance between the Pashtuns living in Afghanistan and Pakistan is increasing we must learn from nations who speak the same language and have the same culture but are politically different and belong to different nations or countries and are citizens of different states. For example all Arab, Spanish, German, French ,English speaking people are not the citizens of the same countries but psychologically ,linguistically , culturally , economically they have enormous ties and try to develop linkages which further strengthen their bonds

We Pashtuns on both sides of the border if cant become one nation politically at least can feel one ethnic group and sons of the same father living in different houses . We must encourage connections with each other by marriages, conferences and friendships. We must feel near to an Afghan Pashtun than to a Pakistani Panjabi and vice versa

The concern is also about the increasing distance of Pashto language spoken in Pakistan and Afghanistan. There is a marked difference in vocabulary of the Pashto spoken in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Afghanistani Pashto is influenced by Persian while Pakistani Pashto by Urdu or English. Here the solution is using pure Pashto words neither of Persian nor Urdu nor English. This will bridge the linguistic difference

However, the difference of accent is geographical not political. It does not depend on Pakistan or Afghanistan. It’s not East West. Its North –South. There arer two main dialects in Pashto language. Hard dialect spoken in areas like Peshawar, Mardan, Swat, Malakand, Dir, Kohat, Paracinar, Jalalabad, Bajawar, Mohmand, Khyber,etc mainly in northern part of Pashto speaking areas. Soft dialect is spoken in Southern areas like Banu, Karak, Waziristan, Baluchistan, Qandahar, Paktya etc

I have rarely seen an Afghan Pashtun who intensely hate a Pakistani Pashtun or a Pakistani Pashtun who abhor an Afghan Pashtun but the gap between Pashtuns living in these two countries is really increasing day by day and which can be seen in various internet based forums and other social events of mixed communities specially in foreign countries. Even in Pakistan a Pashtun from Afghanistan is some times called Kabaley or kabuli with a tone of humiliation and Afghan Pashtuns consider the Pakistani Pashtuns to be lesser Pashtuns.

Pashtuns are responsible as well as only solvers for all their problems including the increasing gap between the Pashtuns on both sides of the border. I wish the bridge of the distance between Pashtuns on two sides of the Durand line should be minimized not further intensified. We should become realist and instead of talking or struggling for imaginative ideals like Loy Afghanistan or Pashtunistan may struggle for the cultural, linguistic, psychological and economic unity of Pashtuns living any where in the world including Afghanistan or Pakistan.

This should be however clear that Afghanistan remains the motherland of Pashtuns and Pashtuns and Pashto have the only real status there in Afghanistan. The only hope for the development of Pashto as a language is Afghanistan. In Pakistan Pashtuns should struggle for greater provincial autonomy and should create a bigger Pashtun province including Khyber Pashtunkhwah, FATA, and the Pashtun parts of Baluchistan. Pakistani Pashtuns should struggle for Pashtun rights within Pakistan and making Pashto the official language of the Pashtun areas.

[hiraaa112]

However, the farther away from either countries cities you get, the less that difference. It might be why the cuisine is different in your father's village versus at your home. For example, I've encountered many Peshawari Pukhtoons, probably Yusufzais by blood, and from not knowing their qowm, their fierce defense of anything Punjabi, their love and affinity for Punjabis to the point of picking them over an Afghan Pashtoon, etc. and then comparing them to the Yusufzais of Swat, even though many consider them at times "Pathan" they acted about 100% the same as any Afghan Pashtoon and the only way I could tell they weren't from the Afghan side was little differences in clothing and the very different food they cooked at home. Most of them don't ever have a problem saying I'm Afghan and use the word interchangeably with Pashtoon whereas you see that much less in urban centers like Pekhawar.

It's also interesting about the progression of spice in your home from your grandfather/grandmother's generation until now.
I think it highlights another subtlety in how we've (Pakistani/Afghan Pashtoons) grown apart in that the term "bland" comes up referring to the Afghan cuisine which is a term constantly used by Punjabis/Indians when eating Afghan food. Conversely, Afghans typically generalize Punjabi/Pakistani/Indian food as just a handful of chili pepper and so many spices that every dish tastes the same. This is just an observation on the micro-level, but it goes to show how we have adopted different generalities from other ethnic groups and highlights and unfortunately, how we relate more with foreign groups in our bias'.

Firstly, Badlun I can see your point
And about the Punjabi thing, wow, i'm really surprised that you said that. I know in our house (mothers and fathers side both) anyone that doesn't speak Pashto is called a Punjabi (and that word doesn't have good connotations). Like every Pakistani Pashtun I know does not have favourable opinions of Punjabi's and would not choose them over an Afghan Pashtun. I don't mean to sound racist or anything though.

I found what you said about Yousafzai's from Swat really interesting, because i'm a Yousafzai from Malakand and I have never paid that close attention to culture there and similarities with Afghanistan (although next time I go there I definitely will!) but this sort of ties in with what I said about food at my fathers house.

On another note however, my mothers side is Mohmand and very close to Peshawar and i'd always considered them more purely Afghan (maybe because they're more tribal?). My great-grandmother wore Afghan dress her whole life. I think the reason spice is more prominent in my mothers house is because her family has moved throughout Pakistan so would have had lots of influences form the cultures around them. I do not think the food in my mothers village will taste like that, although i'm not sure since i've never been unfortunately as i've never been allowed :/

Also, I understand that Afghans don't like Pakistani's and want to distance themselves and I don't blame them, like I can see why. You just have to look at a refugee camp in Peshawar.

p.s
I didn't mean for my saying Afghan food was bland to come across as a bad thing.