When/why did our cuisines diverge so much?

[Pukhtoon]

Not intended to cause any infighting as most threads here end up inevitably doing, but just curious as to why the cuisine on the Afghan side versus the Pakistan side are so dissimilar now?

On the Pakistan side I just assumed the food in Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa would be more or less similar to what the standard cuisine is in Afghanistan with minor regional differences but it seems most of the food cooked on the Pakistan side, aside from a few common dishes like Chapli Kabob, are more along the lines of Punjabi/South Asian etc. meals.

I know on the Afghan side they have borrowed many dishes from Uzbeks/Tajiks etc. and it accounts for many of our dishes but since Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa was a part of Afghanistan for so long, why didn't those dishes, if they are of Uzbek/Tajik origin, bleed over to that side as well? Food is pretty unique as people continue to make their historical/ancestral cuisine even when they are detached from their mother country for many generations so I don't know that simply being absorbed into Pakistan would account for the Pukhtoons of Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa no longer making these dishes.

Is it that the cuisine in Afghanistan, i.e., our staple dishes are a recent phenomenon which accounts for the difference? Or, was Khyber Pakhtunkhwaa, even when it was a part of Afghanistan, even then so distinct from the Afghan side that they adopted more of the food from what was then India, now Pakistan? Thoughts?

[Nazar]

Poverty in KPK has to be blamed for this. Panjabi dishes tend to have less meat and more gravy and could therefore feed more people. Afghans who love eating meat, their cuisines are more expensive and contain more meat. The casual meals of both Afghans and Pakis are almost the same; vegetable curries et cetera.
May be the Pashtuns from KPK who moved in to major cities of Pakistan for work, i.e. Karachi and Lahore, have also played some role in introducing the desi food to their home towns.

[Pukhtoon]

Poverty in KPK has to be blamed for this. Panjabi dishes tend to have less meat and more gravy and could therefore feed more people. Afghans who love eating meat, their cuisines are more expensive and contain more meat. The casual meals of both Afghans and Pakis are almost the same; vegetable curries et cetera.
May be the Pashtuns from KPK who moved in to major cities of Pakistan for work, i.e. Karachi and Lahore, have also played some role in introducing the desi food to their home towns.

Maybe - although I don't know that KPK is anymore poor then Afghanistan. Also, it's not as though Afghans eat Pallow and Qabili every day, I mean, in the west maybe and if your richsure but for most its not common. So I guess even if they are too poor in KPK (which I don't think is the case), why don't they even make dishes like Qabili, Mantoo, Aushak, Bolane, etc. on a special occasion? I know many of those dishes are borrowed from others, but again I don't understand why it didn't bleed over to the KPK side.

From my experience, in KPK, they cook dishes like biryani, paratha, and even when they might make a dish similar to that on the Afghan side, it is prepared in the Punjabi/South Asian style and spices. It seems the majority don't know how to cook the dishes common in Afghanistan in KPK. They typically always ask for "Afghanay khoraak" and go to "Afghan" restaurants etc. and laud our cuisine and I don't know they would do that if they had access to it at home as well or if it was common in their homes, families, etc. to see these meals at least occasionally.

I think it either comes down to the fact that despite being the same country for such a long time, maybe KPK has always been more influenced by South Asian culture and cuisine and the opposite true, i.e., Turkic/Persian cuisine and culture on the Afghan side. OR, maybe some of the cuisine we in Afghanistan consider staples are recent additions, maybe the last 100 years or more but its hard for me to accept that given that I know grandparents and great parents which would take us back to 200 years making the same dishes.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

There is no such a thing as Pashtun quisine. Only tribal people eat typical Pashtun food which larraley, dandakay, wretu and other basic stuff. Most of what we call our food is in reality Persian or Indian food.

Since we are by origin a non-urban people obviously our cuisine is simple and basic. Only urbanized people have elaborate menus.

[Midnight_Sun]

Pukhtoon,

It is very common for Pashtuns in Afghanistan to marry Parsiwans (city folk of mixed Pashtun - Tajik ancestry, Uzbeks, and Hazaras). Lots of Pashtuns moved to Kabul and other major cities for over 200 years and there they have adopted many regional delicacies.

You, Shamlawar, and others have addressed this already but let's make it clear again, most Afghan meals are not of meat original at all. Most rural Afghans can't afford to eat meat (sometimes even rice) everyday. Meat is only designated for special occasions (guests, weddings, holidays, etc). If you have dried meat (landee), you could possibly eat it once a month or twice a month.

Most Afghan meals are simple vegetable qormas (curries), wheat bread or gadowlah, simple legumes (mung beans, kidney beans, mashung, baquli, etc), short grain rice, eggs, milk products (mastay, chaka), corn and corn products (ie. corn bread), fresh fruits, dried fruits, dried vegetables, etc. Like Shamlawar said, qurut bata, dandakay, lawoond, aash (simple vegetable soup, pasta made locally), would be made also. These are typical Pashtun foods in Afghanistan.

What you see in restaurants is city food or food reserved for the rich.

These typical foods eaten in Afghanistan's major cities (either at restaurants, street vendors, etcc) by rich and some common folk alike consist of the more famous "Afghan" cuisine that you might be familiar with: Chapli Kabobs, Peerakai/Bolani, Sikh Kabobs, Shoor Nakhut, Jelabi, Shaami Kabobs, Qaboli Palow, Firnee, Afghan style Ice cream, Chalow, Laidam, Mantu, Aashak, Du Pyaaza, Kofta, Roasted whole lamb, etc.

On the flip side, Afghans who have lived or have settled in Pakistan, have adopted some Pakistani dishes such as Biryani, Sambosas, and include some garm masalas in their own cooking. Afghan restaurants in the US I've noticed even change names of dishes to make them sound more familiar to Americans who are used to eating Persian & Indian/Desi food. (Keema, Baba Ganosh, etc).

[Pukhtoon]

I think most people on the thread might of misunderstood my post. I mentioned in a previous post that many of the so-called "Afghan Pashtoon" dishes are of borrowed origin, but what I'm asking is since KPK was a part of Afghanistan for so long, why didn't they also borrow the same dishes since we were all part of one country?

If you go into the deep south of modern-day Afghanistan, far away from any significant Uzbek, Tajik, Hazara, etc., they still cook generally all the same dishes as they do in the north. So why is it that the same dishes never made it to the Pakistan side? They are not anymore farther in distance from the north and certain areas like Peshawar are closer to Jalalabad/Kabul then another city in the deep south of Afghanistan.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Afghanistan, and particulary Pashtuns never were one country.

Ever wondered why Pashtuns don't have a standard formal Pashto language and grammar? Its because we never had an all encompassing unified society for Pashtuns.

[Pukhtoon]

Afghanistan, and particulary Pashtuns never were one country.

Ever wondered why Pashtuns don't have a standard formal Pashto language and grammar? Its because we never had an all encompassing unified society for Pashtuns.

I guess you can make that contention but the formal language/grammar argument because the grammar is generally consistent its just the spoken form that varies and that being the case, their are similar dialectical deviations amongst other ethnic groups who are still considered to have their own country.

But in any event, Pashtoons did at least live under one umbrella of a country for a period and your position doesn't address the issue of why did particular cuisine bled over to every part of modern day Afghanistan but none of KPK. The argument that Pashtoons were never one country and therefore that is the reason why they do not have a generally common cuisine doesn't work because a common cuisine has, in fact, spread throughout modern-day Afghanistan which, per your above post also isn't a Pashtoon country so why didn't the same happen in Afghanistan pre-Durrand?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Pashtuns do not have a standard grammar. Please read books written in Kandahar and compare thos with the ones written in Nangarhar. Big difference in grammar. Particularly in usage of ya and wow.

People who leave near Punjabi urban areas are influenced by their culture. People living in vicinity of Parsis are influenced by their culture. Its as simple as that.

[Pukhtoon]

Pashtuns do not have a standard grammar. Please read books written in Kandahar and compare thos with the ones written in Nangarhar. Big difference in grammar. Particularly in usage of ya and wow.

People who leave near Punjabi urban areas are influenced by their culture. People living in vicinity of Parsis are influenced by their culture. Its as simple as that.

But it's not that simple - why do they cook the way they do in Kandahar where there are almost no "Parsis" or in Paktia or Helmand - Farsi speakers are almost non-existent in those areas, i.e., the South of Afghanistan which is farther away from the traditional Farsi/Turkic speaking areas of Afghanistan then places like Pekhawar.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

People from Kandahar are very much influenced by Persian culture. Kandahar was ruled by Persians and Kandaharis love Persian culture. They even use many farsi words in their dialect. For example, the plural for apple is 'seban'. Seb is a farsi word for apple. Pashto is maney.

Regarding Paktia, there are Tajik settlements in Gardez, Orgun and Ghazni. Aside from that, Paktiawal have invaded northern areas of Afghanistan in the last 300 years and they toke their women as war booty back to Paktia and Khost.

Aside from that, many Paktiawal frequent Kabul and other urban areas. They are very well connected to Tajiks and Tajik culture. You'd find many Paktiawal being able to speak Farsi or at least understand it perfectly.

[Haris]

As the guy above me said, it's most likely because Pashtuns in modern-day Afghanistan have historically had more interactions with Parsiwaans (migrations, invasions etc). This would have been the case at least for like the last five centuries.

The exchange of cuisines, clothing, languages etc are a natural consequence of that and because the parsiwaan culture was more dominant in the past, its influence was even greater.

When Pashtuns did 'unite' (using the word loosely) under one nation, it wasn't for long enough and the unification wasn't strong enough. By the 19th Century, the Pashtuns in modern-day Pakistan were already increasing their own interactions with the various South Asian peoples.

Increased urbanisation in both cases inevitably increased the split.

[Midnight_Sun]

I think most people on the thread might of misunderstood my post. I mentioned in a previous post that many of the so-called "Afghan Pashtoon" dishes are of borrowed origin, but what I'm asking is since KPK was a part of Afghanistan for so long, why didn't they also borrow the same dishes since we were all part of one country?

If you go into the deep south of modern-day Afghanistan, far away from any significant Uzbek, Tajik, Hazara, etc., they still cook generally all the same dishes as they do in the north. So why is it that the same dishes never made it to the Pakistan side? They are not anymore farther in distance from the north and certain areas like Peshawar are closer to Jalalabad/Kabul then another city in the deep south of Afghanistan.

Thanks for clarifying. This is pure speculation on my part, but I would start off by first looking at regional influences and history.

I would think the biggest factor is development and vicinity to major multi-cultural towns. Most Pashtun tribes in Afghanistan live near the cities of Kandahar, Kabul, and Ghazni. There were also exiled tribes sent to the far reaches of Afghan territory in Badakhshan, Herat, and Mazar, but they were the minorities, even if the local lords were Afghans. Afghan royalty was heavily mixed with Persians (Qizilbash particularly) since the time of Nadir Afshari. Ghilzai, being the political rivals of the Durranis were the ones constantly exiled to far off towns like Takhar, Mazar, Badghis, and Badakhshan.

As for Pashtuns in the tribal areas, King Abdur Rahman Khan, when negotiating the Durand treaty, stated that he himself knew that the British could never control the tribal areas, as his forefathers also never could. This to me, shows that the tribal areas were still heavily isolated regions.

How many major large (half a million or more population) multi-ethnic cities exist in Pakhtunkhwa other than Peshawar? Knowing that, how many Pashtun tribes from the tribal areas from Pakistan were known to do business and make roots in Afghanistan since the frontier was split by the British? I can see them having contact with their kin in proximity to the border, but how many of them travel to Kabul, Mazar, Ghazni, etc? Of that population, how many of them actually married Afghanistan women?

The British occupation division, land route (silk road) closing because of Sea travel, also layed havoc with cultural/regional influence coming from Afghanistan, Central Asia. The same could be said from the destabilizaiton of the defunct Mughal empire by the inheritors, the British, and restricted influence coming from South Asia caused by the British. Kochis and other merchants and businessmen were severely restricted during the British. Not only that, the British began creating rail roads and building up garrison towns (like Quetta) connecting Pakhtunkhwa with British India rather than with Afghanistan and Central Asia. This was even more restricted when Pakistan was created and Punjabi Urdu culture began seeping into Pakhtunkhwa; while Pakhtuns began travelling more within Pakistan to major cities like Karachi and Lahore, where they now make up a sizable minority.

Getting back to Afghan cuisine, the oldest book I have on Afghan cuisine is from 1927 from the Indian-Afghan writer, Sirdar Ikbal Ali Shah and it describes a typical "Afghan" wedding feast that included:

1) Nan (bread)
2)Shorba (Shorwa)
3)Qorma (described as meat fried with butter, curry, onions, and flavours)
4) Kofta(round balls of minced meat fried in butter)
5) Shami Kabob (flat minced cakes with layer of slices of ginger, mint, etc)
6)Biryani Palow (rice boiled in meat and steamed)
7)Zarda Palow (rice, sweetened, boiled and steamed, currants (tiny berries), almonds, colored with saffron
8)Rice pudding
10Maghut (sweet jelly dish) I think he is referring to Firini
11) Shir Mal (round flat cakes, slightly sweetened)

Notably missing are what are now famous Afghan cuisines - Mantu & Qaboli. Which are now considered almost national dishes for Afghanistan and favorites at many restaurants. So in conclusion, this to me also shows the increasing amalgamation of Afghan and Persian/Uzbek cuisines. Considering these dishes were commonly found in Northern Afghanistan, this influx of these dishes in Afghan cuisine probably has to do with the migration of Barakzai (Durrani, Mohammadzai) Afghans to the North and West. As they married Tajik and Uzbek women, they adopted their cuisines. Ghilzai Pashtuns that lived near major cities also were also influenced by this cuisine. In 100 years, these cuisines became fairly common in all major cities in Afghanistan while tribal Pashtuns on the border and Pakhtunkhwa, were not as easily influenced, and as an extension, the Pashtuns of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.

[Pukhtoon]

People from Kandahar are very much influenced by Persian culture. Kandahar was ruled by Persians and Kandaharis love Persian culture. They even use many farsi words in their dialect. For example, the plural for apple is 'seban'. Seb is a farsi word for apple. Pashto is maney.

Regarding Paktia, there are Tajik settlements in Gardez, Orgun and Ghazni. Aside from that, Paktiawal have invaded northern areas of Afghanistan in the last 300 years and they toke their women as war booty back to Paktia and Khost.

Aside from that, many Paktiawal frequent Kabul and other urban areas. They are very well connected to Tajiks and Tajik culture. You'd find many Paktiawal being able to speak Farsi or at least understand it perfectly.

So then I guess its not just as you previously mentioned about living among them, its that KPK and modern day Afghanistan, even the Pashtoons, were always disconnected and KPK had forged greater relationships with South Asians instead of Pashtoons in modern-day Afghanistan or else they would have also been exposed to the same cuisine that the Pashtoons of modern-day Afghanistan took from people of Tajik or Turkic ancestry. This seems more plausible to me as maybe those in modern-day Afghanistan interacted in trade with these people more and the Pashtoons of KPK opted instead to do their trade (by choice or necessity) with South Asian peoples thus taking some of their dishes.

Although, I still find it strange that all influence from Afghan Pashtoon cuisine (adopted from others) just randomly cut-off at the Durrand line borders when there was no such border and nobody even respects it to this day and people move about freely.

[Pukhtoon]

Thanks for clarifying. This is pure speculation on my part, but I would start off by first looking at regional influences and history.

I would think the biggest factor is development and vicinity to major multi-cultural towns. Most Pashtun tribes in Afghanistan live near the cities of Kandahar, Kabul, and Ghazni. There were also exiled tribes sent to the far reaches of Afghan territory in Badakhshan, Herat, and Mazar, but they were the minorities, even if the local lords were Afghans. Afghan royalty was heavily mixed with Persians (Qizilbash particularly) since the time of Nadir Afshari. Ghilzai, being the political rivals of the Durranis were the ones constantly exiled to far off towns like Takhar, Mazar, Badghis, and Badakhshan.

As for Pashtuns in the tribal areas, King Abdur Rahman Khan, when negotiating the Durand treaty, stated that he himself knew that the British could never control the tribal areas, as his forefathers also never could. This to me, shows that the tribal areas were still heavily isolated regions.

How many major large (half a million or more population) multi-ethnic cities exist in Pakhtunkhwa other than Peshawar? Knowing that, how many Pashtun tribes from the tribal areas from Pakistan were known to do business and make roots in Afghanistan since the frontier was split by the British? I can see them having contact with their kin in proximity to the border, but how many of them travel to Kabul, Mazar, Ghazni, etc? Of that population, how many of them actually married Afghanistan women?

The British occupation division, land route (silk road) closing because of Sea travel, also layed havoc with cultural/regional influence coming from Afghanistan, Central Asia. The same could be said from the destabilizaiton of the Mughal empire by the British and restricted influence coming from South Asia caused by the British. Kochis and other merchants and businessmen were severely restricted during the British. Not only that, the British began creating rail roads and building up garrison towns (like Quetta) connecting Pakhtunkhwa with British India rather than with Afghanistan and Central Asia. This was even more restricted when Pakistan was created and Punjabi Urdu culture began seeping into Pakhtunkhwa; while Pakhtuns began travelling more within Pakistan to major cities like Karachi and Lahore, where they now make up a sizable minority.

Getting back to Afghan cuisine, the oldest book I have on Afghan cuisine is from 1927 from the Indian-Afghan writer, Sirdar Ikbal Ali Shah and it describes a typical "Afghan" wedding feast that included:

1) Nan (bread)
2)Shorba (Shorwa)
3)Qorma (described as meat fried with butter, curry, onions, and flavours)
4) Kofta(round balls of minced meat fried in butter)
5) Shami Kabob (flat minced cakes with layer of slices of ginger, mint, etc)
6)Biryani Palow (rice boiled in meat and steamed)
7)Zarda Palow (rice, sweetened, boiled and steamed, currants (tiny berries), almonds, colored with saffron
8)Rice pudding
10Maghut (sweet jelly dish) I think he is referring to Firini
11) Shir Mal (round flat cakes, slightly sweetened)

Notably missing are what are now famous Afghan cuisines - Mantu & Qaboli. Which are now considered almost national dishes for Afghanistan and favorites at many restaurants. So in conclusion, this to me also shows the increasing amalgamation of Afghan and Persian/Uzbek cuisines. Considering these dishes were commonly found in Northern Afghanistan, this influx of these dishes in Afghan cuisine probably has to do with the migration of Barakzai (Durrani, Mohammadzai) Afghans to the North and West. As they married Tajik and Uzbek women, they adopted their cuisines. Ghilzai Pashtuns that lived near major cities also were also influenced by this cuisine. In 100 years, these cuisines became fairly common in all major cities in Afghanistan while tribal Pashtuns on the border and Pakhtunkhwa, were not as easily influenced, and as an extension, the Pashtuns of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.

I think this is the most plausible possible explanation for the deviation. I always had a suspicion that what Afghan Pashtoons consider staples of Afghan cuisine might have been introduced more recently then we believe, i.e., post-Durrand or during the British occupation which would be a time when we were much more separated. The British occupation and their purposefully dividing KPK from Afghanistan tacitly through moving all trade through that region or explicitly through border crossings and later through annexing it to Pakistan would definitely account for the current divide.

I also believe there was a large influx of Central Asian peoples into Afghanistan as Russian incursions became greater and greater and those fleeing (many for their religious beliefs which were juxtaposed to their invaders dogma) sought refuge in Afghanistan and probably brought more of their cuisine to the region. Maybe not he only reason but an additional factor into the deviation of our cuisines. If you figure we have been more or less forcibly separated from one another for 200 years or more and assuming some of these dishes are modern adoptions or at modern widespread adoptions, it makes a little more sense why our cuisines deviated so much.