Islamic reaction to radical Muslims

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias, His emotions got the best of him.

That is no defense, nor does that take back his statement. He clearly advocated and supported terrorism -- something you denied existed in this thread.

I think we should make one thing clear, we are not terrorists nor do we support such people.

My original post was asking why these people are not vilified by your community -- but the subsequent posts showed that they were not vilified due to the fact that many of the posters in this thread actually *DO* support the terrorists. I do not judge anyone other than the actual posters -- you may not support terrorism, but some here clearly do.

The problem is people disrespecting our religion, we are not asking for much.

I agree.

Practice your freedom of speech, feel free but why bring our religion in it? What does it achieve?

First of all it defends the freedom of speech. If speech were to be restricted through laws or fears, it is not really free -- and in this case it was a very eloquent case of treating the religion of islam *very* well, in comparison to the other religions discussed in the very same episode. They refused to actually show an image of mohammed out of fear, and they even refused to use his name in the second part of the episode. They cited fear of reprisals -- but jesus watched internet porn, and buddha did coke.

It achieved exactly what they intended, both profits, and increased awareness of the special treatment demanded by muslims.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Lets forget aobut this so called Muslim world, I know for a fact your Muslim brothers wouldnt give two dammes for you, and the turkish ottomon khalifate is a good example, relgion can not rule over such a diverse cultures around world unless breaking their identity and forcing them to be your slave, We should concern ourselves more for our own pashtun interests than arabs, arabs are veyr wealthy, they have resources and influence, why shud we utter and involve ourselves in thier problems and affairs. Iam sure if you go to dubai or any other arab country and speak of unity, they will treat u no different than how a soviet soldier treated a Afghan supporter at the time of war, always remmeber that, also do not indluge into fantasies of the Soviet/Afghan war, Pashtuns didnt defeat anybody but themselves, they got screwed over and used by Pakistan and the west, The soviets were lured into what thye called the Bear Trap and Pashtuns as usual used as meat to die for them and their intersts, all of it could have been sorted out veyr easily through negociation and understanding.

Here is the big question for you

What happened after the soviet withdrawal in Afghanistan?

1) ISI got its foot hold
2)most of the well educated and intellectual community of afghanistan fled or were slaughtered by Militia
3)Mullahs took over and destroyed our basic tenets and freedoms
4) People such as hameed gul and col imam built holiday houses for their Punjabi brothers to use Afghanistan as their new province.
5)America gave more weapons and funding to Pakistan
6)Pakistan used the blood of Afghans to refurbished their Faisal Mosque
7)Jihadi groups such as Lashkar e tayba etc were invented in Afghanistan by ISI as Afghanistan was used for future jihadi terrorist militia groups/
8)Alot of afghans became refugees in Pakistan, for which they were again used to fight for them in Kargil against India.
9) and the long list goes on.................................

[Roshina]

OMG! :D Another Pashtun with actual brain, a sense of rationality, condemnation of radical, fundamental extremism, including issuing death threats to folks just like that!!

God bless you, Ozy! Welcome to the forum You've NO idea how happy I just got after reading your post! Welcome a million times!

P.S. I read only the first page of the replies; can't read the rest yet - will be back in a few days after exams and major papers are done with, ka khairee. I just couldn't contain my relief any longer, you see
Please, PLEASE recruit more people like you! If you visit the Religions thread on this forum, you'll understand why we're in need of folks like you. (I'm assuming you're a rational being based only on one of your posts; I only hope that you are in all other arenas of thought as well!)

Peace!

[Master Khan]

That is no defense, nor does that take back his statement. He clearly advocated and supported terrorism -- something you denied existed in this thread.



My original post was asking why these people are not vilified by your community -- but the subsequent posts showed that they were not vilified due to the fact that many of the posters in this thread actually *DO* support the terrorists. I do not judge anyone other than the actual posters -- you may not support terrorism, but some here clearly do.



I agree.



First of all it defends the freedom of speech. If speech were to be restricted through laws or fears, it is not really free -- and in this case it was a very eloquent case of treating the religion of islam *very* well, in comparison to the other religions discussed in the very same episode. They refused to actually show an image of mohammed out of fear, and they even refused to use his name in the second part of the episode. They cited fear of reprisals -- but jesus watched internet porn, and buddha did coke.

It achieved exactly what they intended, both profits, and increased awareness of the special treatment demanded by muslims.

Since when did I support Terrorism.
Dude You are taking to freedom of speech too far now.

[ozymandias]

Your definition of terrorism is a bit broad as compared to Master Khan, I guaranty you and can ensure you that Master Khan, living in Britain does not support such yet condones such actions.

He does, and did. Period.

Ozy my friend our dear member,

You need to understand something and read this carefully, Why do you find it so difficult to understand that we simply want our religion to be respected. We are not asking to be praised.

You need to understand two things: 1) you do not deserve special treatment. Your religion should be respected just as much as any religion -- no more, no less, and 2) it is this very support of terrorism that makes your religion a target at times. If you handled disrespect like every other religion, in a civilized manner, it would not create controversy and generate ratings to disrespect your religion. Since there is a profit to be had by stirring up the muslim bees' nest, they do so. Act rationally, and civilized, and it would be no big deal -- there would be no reason to be getting upset, and no profit from trying to upset.

We believe in Islam being the truth.

Every religion believes they are the way. Why are you special?

We believe that Muhammad is the final prophet of God.

Every religion has parallel beliefs. Why are you special?

We are not enforcing this on you sir.

No one is forcing you to watch South Park, or by Danish newspapers, either.

What you *are* forcing on us, though, is that you want us to follow the rules of your religion, whether we are members or not. You have a religious prohibition from displaying mohammed. Fine. I, and much of the world have no such belief -- so why should we be restricted by it? It's not our religion, why should we have to follow it's laws?

Why would you go out on the blue and start making fun of us and mocking us?

When it happens out of the blue, I'll have a case to look at and provide an answer. Since I only have the actual factual historical examples, the Danish cartoons were displayed to provide a political comentary on a religion that supports and harbors terrorists -- not out of the blue, but in reaction to actual events. The same goes for Theo Van Gogh -- he made his films in response to actual events he saw around him. South Park -- they made an eloquent, and powerful commentary on a religion that uses terrorism to demand special treatment. None of that was out of the blue.

How do you explain this logically?

I have no trouble, and have pointed out the freedom of speech continually, but you choose to ignore it.

You on the other hand have a tough battle if you are going to logically explain why non-members of your faith should be bound by it's rules, and have to fear terrorism for violating it.

[ozymandias]

OMG! :D Another Pashtun with actual brain, a sense of rationality, condemnation of radical, fundamental extremism, including issuing death threats to folks just like that!!

God bless you, Ozy! Welcome to the forum You've NO idea how happy I just got after reading your post! Welcome a million times!

I hate to break it to you, I'm atheist... Thanks for the welcome, though

P.S. I read only the first page of the replies; can't read the rest yet - will be back in a few days after exams and major papers are done with, ka khairee. I just couldn't contain my relief any longer, you see
Please, PLEASE recruit more people like you! If you visit the Religions thread on this forum, you'll understand why we're in need of folks like you. (I'm assuming you're a rational being based only on one of your posts; I only hope that you are in all other arenas of thought as well!)

Peace!

Once this thread settles down, I'll try out other threads...

[ozymandias]

Since when did I support Terrorism.

You have stated more than once that it is the fault of those that angered the terrorists, and not the terrorists fault. You have even gone so far as to state that the Danish cartoonist 'got what he deserved' when he became the target of terrorism. How is that not supporting terrorism?

Dude You are taking to freedom of speech too far now.

No such thing -- that is a logical impossibility.

[ozymandias]

I am not demanding special treatment. All we are asking is to leave our religion alone, its merely a request.

A request for special treatment -- which is backed by terrorism and support of terrorism if it is not granted. How is that different than a demand?

Its more like a, Don't pick on someone on the streets for no reason.

First of all, I have stated many reasons already.

Second of all, you have yet to answer why your religion deserves special treatment.

We do handle it in a civilized manner,

So of you might -- but some are barbarian terrorists, and even more defend the barbarians.

but when you go as far as saying our PROPHET IS A TERRORIST. Then some people will not let that suffice, they will retaliate cause its extremely offensive.

And that is fine -- as long as they retaliate in a civilized manner. You are making excuses and justifying the actions of terrorists -- you are even going so far as to implying that the victims were asking for it, and were at fault for angering the terrorists -- something dangerously close to supporting terrorists, which you claim to not do.

Because I have faith and see the truth in my religion.

Good for you. How is this any different than any other theist on the planet? Or atheists and their faith in the truth of no religion? This is exactly my point: to non-believers your faith is not special, and should be treated no better or worse than any other religion on the planet. Just because *YOU* and a bunch of terrorists believe it does not make it special.

And that is why I don't disturb nor bother it either,

The point is, the fact that they walked a mile to disrespect our religion is UNACCEPTABLE.

Jesus watched internet porn. Buddha snorted coke. They went much farther to disrespect those religions -- but I see no terrorist threats from those groups.

You might find it unacceptable -- fine. Do something civilized about it, don't resort to terrorism, the cause of all your problems.

[/quote]


Who is forcing things? All we are asking is to respect our religion, Is that too much?

[/quote]

The terrorists and supporters are forcing things. You are saying "follow our rules, and do things our way, or suffer terrorism". Do you somehow not see that as 'forcing'?

Asking us to respect your religion is not too much. Resorting to terrorism when you don't get your way *is*.

So you are saying Muslims support terrorists? How could generalize nearly 2billion people?

I said that your religion supports and harbors your religion -- and this forum is proof that muslims do support terrorism, and a quick look at the news will show you many cases of muslim terrorists. This is 100% true -- your religion has terrorist members. I am not saying every member of the religion is a terrorist, or supports them, and it is a low down dirty move to imply I did.

I'll take my words back when you prove that not a single terrorist, ever, was muslim, and that no muslim, ever, supported terrorism. You can start right here, with this thread.

I don't see it, I have pointed out several times how its unacceptable that they are intentionally disrespecting us, yet you are hiding from it.

I am not hiding from anything. You have failed to explain how a rational person resorts to terrorism in response to a little disrespect. So what? It's a little disrespect -- something that is their right as human beings to do. That in no way on earth justifies *TERRORISM*.

We are not asking for anyone to BOUND by our rules or follow Islam, we simply ask to RESPECT OUR RELIGION, LEAVE IT ALONE.

Don't forget the third option : "BE THE VICTIM OF TERRORISM". You are giving three options, none of which you have any right to enforce on other human beings.

[Master Khan]

You have stated more than once that it is the fault of those that angered the terrorists, and not the terrorists fault. You have even gone so far as to state that the Danish cartoonist 'got what he deserved' when he became the target of terrorism. How is that not supporting terrorism?



No such thing -- that is a logical impossibility.

Well yeah, its his fault.
and those are not terrorist.
Terrorist are the people are are bombing and killing our people in Pakistan and Afghanistan, If they are killing my people and bombing my land then why should I support them.

[ozymandias]

Well yeah, its his fault.
and those are not terrorist.

And again, he unashamedly supports terrorists.

Still going to claim no one in this thread is supporting terrorists?

Terrorist are the people are are bombing and killing our people in Pakistan and Afghanistan,

Yes, those are terrorist, assuming you are talking the groups of *actual* terrorists, and not the military response *to* the terrorists -- but they are not the only terrorists.

If they are killing my people and bombing my land then why should I support them.

I'm not sure why you do -- that is what I am asking.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias.

We do not demand anyhing.

We believe in Islam. We have a simple request, keep our religion out of countries affairs.

do not use our religion to create a political career.

Those *words* are not a demand, but they become one when you add the "or else we will use terrorism to get our way" to them, either explicitly, or implicitly.

[ozymandias]

No.

No.. what?

No it is not a demand to use terrorism to get what you want? Is that what you are trying to say?

Brother Ozymandias


We Muslims believe in our religion and have faith in it and we don't want someone to disrespect us.

So? First of all don't do things worthy of disrespect, like use or support terrorism. Secondly, what makes your faith in your religion than anyone else's faith in their religion or atheism? Why should you get special treatment?

Our buttons are being pressed for a long time now.

... so? Still not justification for terrorism -- especially since terrorism is the cause for buttons being pushed...

[Roshina]

I hate to break it to you, I'm atheist... Thanks for the welcome, though

"Break" it to me? lol. So what that you're an atheist? Over 60% of the Pashtun intellectuals I know are atheists, though most aren't willing to say it out loud. I'm not an atheist, but then I'm no intellectual either. (Note to anti-atheist folks: This is NOT to mean that all intellectuals are atheists, or that all atheists are intellectuals - not at ALL.)
The rest are Muslim, but not the typical Muslims who are against reason; they're the type you learn so much from in just one short conversation, the type you wanna be around alllllll the time because you know you can't stop learning from them.

You know, in all honesty, I'm convinced that the atheist Pashtuns (or others) are far more "Islamic" than those who claim to be Muslims and have not been taught to use their brain. Sorry if you find the label of "Islamic" a pejorative one; I can understand why you would. But I don't mean it that way. Just that, I more than strongly believe that the typical Muslims are led astray, and that's NOT the kind of "ummah" Prophet Muhammad wanted to leave behind.

Once this thread settles down, I'll try out other threads...

Oh, believe me - this thread will never settle down You're different. You think differently. You're a self-declared atheist. So you'll always have folks in this thread attempting to challenge you (and they'll never succeed, because they can't prove you wrong at all, mostly because they don't know their own religion will enough to debate with you about theism vs atheism, you see). So I'd suggest you get more involved in other threads as well :D Please! We need more and more diversity, and, again, nothing's more pleasing than seeing diversity among Pashtuns! It CAN empower and strengthen us if we let it. And we won't let it affect us positively UNLESS and UNTIL we've got a large number of Pashtuns who believe differently (I'm talking specifically in terms of religious views, not cultural/traditional views).

So, welcome again and again, and looking forward to other posts of yours.

[ozymandias]

"Break" it to me? lol. So what that you're an atheist? Over 60% of the Pashtun intellectuals I know are atheists, though most aren't willing to say it out loud. I'm not an atheist, but then I'm no intellectual either. (Note to anti-atheist folks: This is NOT to mean that all intellectuals are atheists, or that all atheists are intellectuals - not at ALL.)
The rest are Muslim, but not the typical Muslims who are against reason; they're the type you learn so much from in just one short conversation, the type you wanna be around alllllll the time because you know you can't stop learning from them.

You know, in all honesty, I'm convinced that the atheist Pashtuns (or others) are far more "Islamic" than those who claim to be Muslims and have not been taught to use their brain. Sorry if you find the label of "Islamic" a pejorative one; I can understand why you would. But I don't mean it that way. Just that, I more than strongly believe that the typical Muslims are led astray, and that's NOT the kind of "ummah" Prophet Muhammad wanted to leave behind.


Oh, believe me - this thread will never settle down You're different. You think differently. You're a self-declared atheist. So you'll always have folks in this thread attempting to challenge you (and they'll never succeed, because they can't prove you wrong at all, mostly because they don't know their own religion will enough to debate with you about theism vs atheism, you see). So I'd suggest you get more involved in other threads as well :D Please! We need more and more diversity, and, again, nothing's more pleasing than seeing diversity among Pashtuns! It CAN empower and strengthen us if we let it. And we won't let it affect us positively UNLESS and UNTIL we've got a large number of Pashtuns who believe differently (I'm talking specifically in terms of religious views, not cultural/traditional views).

So, welcome again and again, and looking forward to other posts of yours.

I'll see about some of the other threads when and if I have time ;-)

[ozymandias]

Can you provide a source that says 60percent of our Intellects are Athiests?


That is more like your opinion and fantasy.

I can't justify 60%, but study after study has shown that atheists consistently score higher on I.Q. tests -- here is a link to a summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#Studies_comparing_religious_belief_and_I.Q.