Islamic reaction to radical Muslims

[ozymandias]

well people really believe that if you start disrespecting a little your eventually going to slowly start doing it more and more.Islam and muslims dont want that.
and I see your talking alot about radicals..
radical means a fundamentalist..
and Islam has its own fundamentals and all muslims follow those fundamentals so basically your saying all muslims are radicals?

In Islam you cant kill Innocent people.so basically we don't even know what kind of people those are that you refer to as radicaals..

I am discussing the mulsim terrorists and extremists that resort to rioting and violence in defense of anything they think insults their religion, and all the muslims that support their actions. I am not just talking the people on this forum defending them, but the actual muslims in the streets:

[ozymandias]

Sure. When that happens, then we can discuss it then.

You have already terrorised the muslims by making fun of their revered personality.
You are using the terror [public humiliation of muslims in media ] by forcing them to accept your view of freedom of speech and terrorism [your target].This is terrorism.

I'm sorry, if you can't take this seriously we cannot even discuss this. A cartoon is not terrorism. Terrorism is something that instills fear, not an item of disrespect. Crashing a plane into a tower, bombing subways, mailing anthrax, threatening to kill are examples of terrorism. A cartoon that does not make any threats at all is not terrorism. At worst, it is disrespectful, or libelous -- not terrorism.

.. what? I don't get this. How is a picture of a bear supposed to instill fear? is it a scary bear? A small child viewing the image?

Were those guys teaching public how to recognise a bear by showing them the picture of a bear or were they personifying the revered personality of Muslims?

The difference does not matter -- it still was not terrorism.

What terrorism am I hiding? You keep trying to say I am hiding terrorism, but fail to point out a concrete example.

You want me to repeat.You use terror to instill fear in muslims that if they do not approve of your concept of free speech and do not consider humiliating act of presenting a revered person in the form of a bear as your right of free speech then the muslims would be alienated and humiliated publicly.This is terrorism.

No, that is what it takes to be in a free society. No one is threatening harm or torture if they don't agree with what free speech is -- they are just asking them to return the same respect they are given!

Bull****. It might be disrespectful -- but the intent of portraying a bear costume instead of mohammed was *not* to cause others to do what the makers of South Park wanted due to fear. It was not an attempt to use terror to influence the actions of another group at all. Thus not terrorism.


Who gave you the right to judge on part of others.

Common sense. There is nothing in the images or cartoons that is a threat of harm, nor is there any physical harm caused by the images, thus it is not terrorism.

Something may be just disrespecting in your eyes but it might be a matter of life and death for others.

Please tell me -- other than the artists, or those supporting the artists, or innocents caught up in the riots, one single person that died because of these images, and not their own reaction to the images. I dare you.

Where have you learnt the science of quantifying emotional responses? Are you so naive not to understand that there could be multiple forms of terror? Social fear is more dangerous form of terror to influence a group. Sigmund Frued has base dhis whole argument on this fact when he says that conscious mind tries to intellectulise the desires of unconscious mind due to fear of society and hence give rational explanations or rationalises its desires to be acceptible to the society

... what? Please explain to me how an image is terrifying to you.

If you are going to insist on calling anything you don't like 'terrorism' in order to justify atrocities, you have a serious problem.

-----Ditto as the last comment----

What the hell are you blabbering on about?

Terrorism is the use of terror to achieve goals. What do you find terrifying about a cartoon that you don't even have to watch -- to the point that you think death threats are the equivalent response?


I know and agree with this definition but what you are not able to understand is that you consider a cartoon of a revered person of a major demography across the globe same as the cartoon of Tom and Jerry.This is not the case.Be honest about your conscience.

I'll be honest. I see no difference between an image of Tom and Jerry, Mohammed, Jesus, or any other cartoonified figure.

I have already told you that as a response to such a terrifying act

WHAT TERRIFYING ACT?!?

of humiliating a revered person , a death threat is not proper but what you should understand is that expecting no reaction from the followers of that person is also improper and an ignorance about mass psychology.

They fully expected that response. That was the point of the cartoon. It is available online for free. I suggest you go watch it. They make a big fuss out of refusing to display his image out of fear of retaliation -- and they got that exact retaliation.

You made up an false analogy here -- a picture is not the same as murder, no matter how disrespectful the picture is. You have to be one hell of a coward that scared of a picture that it can control your actions through fear. I believe that you are deliberately ignoring the definitions of these terms and pretending to not have a clue what the word terrorism is, as you clearly are consistently misusing it.

You don't like a cartoon -- don't watch. There is no equivilent response to a threat of terrorism -- what do you think "Don't want to be murdered so don't... live?? don't... go outside?" Help me fill that one in a little bit, please

It is cultural relativism.Trust me Visit various cultures and you would know this fact.Fro example in most oriental cultures, they consider respect more valuable virtue than life.
In the old Indian civilisation ,they have a saying ,which means that:
The wealth has to be sacrificed for life and life has to be sacrificed for honor and respect.
In the Afghan culture,death is preferred over a disrespectful life.

And in the free world, nothing is more sacred than free speech. The same cultural relativism applies -- only we are asking you to let us live in peace free from terrorism, and you are asking us to follow your ways and rules -- or be threatened with terrorist acts.

So your argument that if you dont liek it dont see it absolutely rubbish.How can you disrespect me that too in public and that too not any of my personal habit or weakness but my concept of life and universe ,which I share with billions of other people and just tell me if you do not like to be humiliated then avoid watching my propaganda or avoid listening to my bull****.

Simple, that's the way modern society in a free world works.

Oh and:


Who cares how many are offended? If you are offended and don't watch, they stop doing it due to the loss of revenue, but other than that how many people they offend is not at all important.

I'll say it again: YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT NOT TO BE OFFENDED.

Get a god damned education.

As a man with multiple MSes and working towards my first Ph.D, I am pretty sure I have one.

Then again, maybe I should take the word of a man defending terrorism and confused by the very word 'terrorism' and go get an education. Or not.

[ozymandias]

Ozy,
I think I get what you mean but it has a significant meaning to Muslims and disrespecting hurts their feelings, so we non-Muslims should not disrespect.

It disrespects me *more* to see terrorism as the response to free speech.

See? We can both play that game. Sure, it's disrespectful -- but so what? Disrespect does not deserve terrorism in response.

[ozymandias]

James

I think you got it much easily than Ozy will. It is a simple argument.

Criticise whatever you want using your freedom of speech but not in a provocative manner. Do it in a proper academic way, on a proper plateform and with the proper people. Using media for exercising the right of freedom of speech against the revered person of a certain failth is humiliating, insulting, disrespectful and provocative..

This is common sense.Jargon is not really needed to explain it.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

There is no such limit to free speech. What you say is a good example of good manners -- but good manners are not everything. Take a look at the Civil Rights movement -- that violates every single one of those guidelines you set.

[ozymandias]

This is what I have been trying since last night. He mistakenly thinks I am a theist,while I am not though am not an athiest too.

That makes no sense. Either you believe in a god, and are a theist, or you do not, and you are an atheist. If you are unsure, you fall into the second camp, by definition.

[ozymandias]

I don't care what people said but insulting is not freedom of speech.

That is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard. Whether or not something is insulting has zero impact on whether it is free speech or not.

You can't just insult someones religion and then say "oh Its freedom speech".

Yes, you can, because it is.

And we said "Don't show our prophets and don't insult us" then DON'T.

Naw. You are not in charge of Comedy Central, nor the show South Park, nor the Dannish newspapers -- so you do not get to dictate the policies they follow.

you have no rights to use our belives and religion as comedy..

Not only do I have the universal human right of free speech to do just that, but as an American citizen, I have additional human rights that also allow me to do just that.

thats not freedom of speech but its humiliating, insulting and disrespectful our religion and prophets.

It is freedom of speech, and so what if it is humiliating, or disrespectful?

[ozymandias]

Ozy you are wrong about that.

No one can justify innocent killing,terrorism is wrong and NO Pashtun supports it.

This thread is only 10 pages long, and I can easily go back and find posters that time after time support the terrorists.

But one thing that should be made crystal lear is that the Muslim community feels demonized all over the world. How many cases can I show you where innocent people were killed just cause they were Muslim, In fact even pregnant women.

The same goes for every single other demographic group -- and you are demonized for one simple reason -- terrorism and supporting terrorism. I did not believe the negative publicity about muslims supporting terrorism until I started posting here -- and it looks more and more like those that speak out agains mulsim terrorism from inside the muslim world don't even understand what terrorism is, and are only denying because they don't know what they are talking about.

The Muslim world feels under attack since AT LEAST the soviet attack on Afghanistan(In Which the Afghans(Pashtuns)Gave the soviets a humiliating defeat and collpased their regime) since then Muslims have been exonerated.


now, as we move on you have Muslims feeling demonized and then you have people mocking and making fun our religion?

The point of the episode was that they could not show mohammed out of fear of terrorism -- and they got threats of terrorism. Do you see why you get demonized? You expect special privileges, and respond in barbaric, terrorist ways when you don't get your way. I'd compare it to the temper tantrum of a small child -- but this is far too deadly serious to belittle that way.

Why Ozy? Is it necessary? Why can't they leave our religion out of this.

Nope. It's not free speech if you limit the topics they can discuss -- and they have every right to poke fun at terrorism.

oh and if I have not welcomed you before I apologize but welcome here, and I hope you enjoy your stay and we can learn from one another.

[Master Khan]

That is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard. Whether or not something is insulting has zero impact on whether it is free speech or not.



Yes, you can, because it is.



Naw. You are not in charge of Comedy Central, nor the show South Park, nor the Dannish newspapers -- so you do not get to dictate the policies they follow.



Not only do I have the universal human right of free speech to do just that, but as an American citizen, I have additional human rights that also allow me to do just that.


It is freedom of speech, and so what if it is humiliating, or disrespectful?

So ok then I can came up to you and punch you the face and spit on you and then I will say "oh its freedom of speech" so its ok.
I can insult your family e.g. your sisters, your mother, because its freedom of speech.

you are not even muslim the way you are acting.
There are over billion muslims in this world and insulting them is not right.
Respect is a thing aswell brother.

[Master Khan]

Insulting is just not right.
If they are Jews, Christains, Muslim etc, we should not insult them because that is their religion and culture.
You can't just insult, disrespect someones religion, culture and then said "Its freedom of speech".
you won't like If I Insult you.

[Palwasha]

Good choice of picture, I watched something related to this.. look at the boards..all white with the same black writing, in the same handwriting, and each person carrying the voilent threats all have their face covered.. hmm.. makes one wonder..

(It can't be said they were all muslim for sure - no proof).

And so according to you a few groups of people represent 2 billion people. Well..

Since you like pictures so much, here's a few for ya: Palestine, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Marwa Sherbini..I could go on forever..







Where have the white boards with the threats in black writing gone? =O

[Master Khan]

I am sick of these people who thinks insulting someones religion and belifes is alright and that we muslims are violent.
we muslims gets bombed, killed, our countries gets invaded and and then you insult our religion, ofcourse we will get angry and upset.

[ozymandias]

So ok then I can came up to you and punch you the face and spit on you and then I will say "oh its freedom of speech" so its ok.

Are you.... 'special'? Since when, and in what country has physical assault been covered by free speech?

Please either start discussing this seriously like an adult, or leave this thread for those that would like to.

I can insult your family e.g. your sisters, your mother, because its freedom of speech.

Sure can.

you are not even muslim the way you are acting.

What was your first clue? A few pages back I stated I was not.

There are over billion muslims in this world and insulting them is not right.

It's rude, sure -- but it is not prohibited. It's wrong in a 'bad manners' way, but not wrong in a legal, moral, ethical, or human rights way. I am guessing that you know this and are just pretending to be stupid and confuse the different definitions of words to deliberately confuse the issue.

Respect is a thing aswell brother.

Sure is, but it is not a human right to be respected -- free speech is -- as well as safety from terrorism.

[ozymandias]

Ozy,

no one here supports terrorism. You are taking things out of context, can you show me one person here who said killing innocent people is ok?


please don't propagate lies, lets keep this civil.

before I reply I'd like to straight that up.

Time after time people have stated what amounts to "just don't do anything to upset the terrorists, and let them have their way, and no one would be getting threats or attacked". That is supporting terrorists -- that is saying that the terrorists are right, and that the problem is with the people who angered the terrorists, and no the terrorists for improperly handling their anger.

[ozymandias]

Insulting is just not right.
If they are Jews, Christains, Muslim etc, we should not insult them because that is their religion and culture.

You just don't get it, do you? You might not exercise free speech in that way -- but they have every right to do so.

You can't just insult, disrespect someones religion, culture and then said "Its freedom of speech".

Yes. Yes you can. That is free speech.

you won't like If I Insult you.

I might not like it, but I do not have a right to like every thing, or a right not to be offended, but you do have a right to free speech. It really is that simple!

[ozymandias]

Good choice of picture, I watched something related to this.. look at the boards..all white with the same black writing, in the same handwriting, and each person carrying the voilent threats all have their face covered.. hmm.. makes one wonder..

(It can't be said they were all muslim for sure - no proof).



And so according to you a few groups of people represent 2 billion people. Well..

Thanks for taking my post out of context. I never said I had a problem with all muslims. In fact, I went out of my way to say I have a problem with those that use their religion as an excuse for terrorism, or a shield to justify terrorism, or *THOSE THAT SUPPORT THE TERRORISTS". If you go back to the very post you selected that out of, you can see that in the very first sentence I point this out. Of course, ignoring the context of my post was the only way you could twist my words and make a cowardly attack on what you wanted to imply I was saying -- since I debunked your claim even before you made it.