Islamic reaction to radical Muslims

[abubaker]

This is a very good discussion and lot can be learnt not only in substance but also to understand the attitudes. Here ewe have extremist voices as well as moderate voices like that of Afghanlady.

Extremism in any shape is bad and must be condemned. As it is said that excess in every thing is bad. Non Muslims when talking of Islam or any religion and the prophet of Islam or any other religion must show due respect and then may ask or criticize Islam with valid arguments.

Non Muslims may encourage moderate Muslims and Muslims in gneral by giving them exposures of the developed world and may not give such remarks that the extremists muslims exploit those remarks of the non Muslims and make moderate Muslims also terrorists. This is what going on and terrorism is a viscious circle as terrorist Muslim use the excuses of Palestine, Iraq, Bosnia, Chechnya and Afghanistan as reason for their terrorism.

Muslims instead of arms and terrorism may argue with non Muslims in a educated way and may try to falsify the wrong propaganda of Non Muslims against Islam. After all religion is for peace not for wars.

what is a moderate muslims, what do you have in mind when are talking of moderate muslims

[ozymandias]

This is a very good discussion and lot can be learnt not only in substance but also to understand the attitudes. Here ewe have extremist voices as well as moderate voices like that of Afghanlady.

Extremism in any shape is bad and must be condemned. As it is said that excess in every thing is bad. Non Muslims when talking of Islam or any religion and the prophet of Islam or any other religion must show due respect and then may ask or criticize Islam with valid arguments.

Replace 'must' with 'should' and I agree.

Non Muslims may encourage moderate Muslims and Muslims in gneral by giving them exposures of the developed world and may not give such remarks that the extremists muslims exploit those remarks of the non Muslims and make moderate Muslims also terrorists. This is what going on and terrorism is a viscious circle as terrorist Muslim use the excuses of Palestine, Iraq, Bosnia, Chechnya and Afghanistan as reason for their terrorism.

The 'non-muslims' are not wrong. It is the terrorists that are wrong. Period.

Muslims instead of arms and terrorism may argue with non Muslims in a educated way and may try to falsify the wrong propaganda of Non Muslims against Islam. After all religion is for peace not for wars.

I like you.

[ozymandias]

like i said before that freedome of speach only applied to you guys,

Universal Human Right. Applies to everyone.

you can say what ever you want but as soon as some one else says things that you dont like or disagree with they by default become anti-semetics

You act like that prevents you from exercising free speech. You can be homophobic, racist, sexist, anti-semetic, or any other bigotted belief you want -- and you still have the right to free speech. This time the shoe is on the other foot -- you have the right to free speech -- they do not have the right *not* to be offended. As long as they just use words to argue with you, you are both fine.

and terrorists,

Words do not make terrorists -- actions and convincing threats of actions do.

look at what happens to people who deny the or have reservations abouth the holucost, they are put in prisons.

In *WHAT* country? This is the first time I have heard of someone arrested as a Holocaust denier.

so dont give me the freedome of speach sh..t when it only applies to your powerfull elite

False.

and no you dont have the right to insult us

False as well. I am a human being, and thus have every right to free speech. I choose not to, as insulting you would not encourage adult discussion and would be counterproductive -- and it may be against the forum rules, which would end all this fun.

[Badlun]

what is a moderate muslims, what do you have in mind when are talking of moderate muslims

Moserate muslims are the about 95% of muslims who are not Slafis, Ahle hadith, Wahabis, extremist Deobandis, Taliban or members of terrorist groups like Lashkari Jhangawi, Hizbe tehrir, Alqaida etc.

[Badlun]

Replace 'must' with 'should' and I agree.



The 'non-muslims' are not wrong. It is the terrorists that are wrong. Period.



I like you.

sorry I became extremist in condemining extremists hahaaa, you may use should for must.

Terrorists are definitely wrong an dsoem of the non Muslims too who create such environments where terrorists flourish.

[ozymandias]

sorry I became extremist in condemining extremists hahaaa, you may use should for must.

Terrorists are definitely wrong an dsoem of the non Muslims too who create such environments where terrorists flourish.

I'll give you that.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias.

Why are you an athiest? Why don't you embrace Islam? A religion of peace.

The same reason I don't embrace any other religion -- they all seem silly and illogical to me -- but that is likely to derail this thread. If you want to discuss this, we will need to start a new thread, and agree to a few ground rules -- and I might want to chat with a moderator or two first both to get permission, and support keeping the thread on track.

[ozymandias]

^That is fine. I don't mind.


I think the president here is Admin Khan.

speak to him about whatever you have to.


Lets keep this open-minded.

I am sure a lot of members are going to participate.

As am I -- and that can get out of control pretty fast.

[imb706]

Well, I'm an atheist as well, pretty much for the same reasons

[imb706]

It was more then a drawing, the pictures he draw was really insulting and disrespecting

They don't seem that insulting to me. If they meant to convey that some muslims are violent, I guess the muslim response proved it right. I mean, there were muslims wanting to blow up an entire country over a cartoon! It's a bit silly, you have to admit.

[ozymandias]

They don't seem that insulting to me. If they meant to convey that some muslims are violent, I guess the muslim response proved it right. I mean, there were muslims wanting to blow up an entire country over a cartoon! It's a bit silly, you have to admit.

I think that hits the bulls-eye. The reaction only justifies the original cartoons and characterizations made. Had the reaction not been violent and repressive, even I would agree that the cartoons would have been needlessly offensive, and simply done to generate revenue. As it is, they were made, at least in part, to defend free speech.

[imb706]

All the cartoons did was voice legitimate concerns. Free speech is all about that.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias,
look at the thread in the religion forum about the Australian camera harassing the Muslim guy and when the Muslim guy retaliated that is all that's shown.


That is exactly what is happening nowadays, the community is under attack. Muslims are very sensitive.

Let me ask this yet again: "So what?" Nothing done to muslims justifies terrorism. Get angry. Get upset. Work to solve the problem -- don't make the problem worse.

I know the video you are talking about, and if Muslims did not have a reputation (justifiably so -- just look at this thread!) of resorting to violence and terrorism, or supporting and defending resorting to violence and terrorism, people would not call them terrorists, or harass them like that. You are upset you are being labeled terrorists -- but many of you (not all) either are terrorists, or support them. Look at this thread -- only recently have many people begun to speak out against the terrorists. For almost 20 pages the vast majority of posters either outright supported the terrorists, or blamed the victims rather than the terrorists -- and then you act outraged that people associate you with the people you support.

I'm not saying all muslims are terrorists -- most of my muslim friends would be infuriated by this thread and the support the terrorists get here -- but enough of you do to make it not unreasonable that you have a reputation.

Frankly my view of your faith has changed drastically in this thread, and not for the better. I came here wondering why you have an international reputation of violence, and why you do not get a voice and speak out against that reputation -- now I am wondering what horrible gulf exists between many muslims and the modern world -- and how they can support terrorism and turn around and cry about being labeled as terrorist sympathisers.

I have met more than one person in this thread that I am eager to continue discussions with, and I feel I can have a lot to learn from them, and hopefully something to teach them. I have even met some that I think are closer to my way of view than they think -- they say that they disagree with everything I have to say -- but are happy I am posting here, and want me to continue to provide a different view point -- that's not far from my point of view. On the other hand, there is at least one poster that I would not want to meet in person - a dark alley or not -- simply because they honestly frighten me, and come across as an actual factual psychopath with no concept of scale, or right and wrong.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias,
I'd like to wecome you here, it's a pleasure to have you here and I look forward in learning from you.

Thank you.

I as a Muslim feel as though if the media insults us, we should in a professional way respond and simply ask why? Rather then putting up signs saying Death to Ozymandias and what not.

If you are in the US, and decide to do this, I will gladly come and hold a sign with you.

[/quote]

That just worsens our image as Muslims, we Muslims now have this reputation of killing simply because

A)We have caused it upon ourself, This is not entirely our fault but it does have a major play in it.


[/quote]

Exactly. Your faith as a whole has earned this reputation. Cast out and reject those that do inappropriate things in the name of your faith. Make it clear that your faith *IS* a peaceful faith an that the terrorists are imposters -- people using your faith as a cloak and an excuse.

Education plays a major role in it.



But now hypothetically speaking, when a country invadeds our motherland, start raping our women,start killing our innocent people, I then justify a retaliation.

I agree -- as long as you handle it correctly. The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is targets. Terrorists attack indiscriminately -- or even target civilians, in an effort to force their will through fear. Freedom fighters are a legitimate military group targeting principally legitimate military targets (collateral damage is terrible, but sometimes is unavoidable) and using legitimate military tactics.

Crashing planes into civilian businesses, bombing subways and buses, poison gas, assassination of civilians, death threats, home invasions, rioting in civilian areas, torching civilian vehicles etc are not legitimate ways to attack.

I'd like apologize on most peoples behalf here, that does not represent our Pashtun Nation or the Muslim world.

I am coming to understand that there are some wonderful people hidden out there. I look forward to talking with you more.

Salamoona graana wrora
(Peace on you dear brother)

Salamoona graaa wrora, and sta na manëna for the translation -- I am *trying* to learn ;-)

[Admin Khan]

Hmm, what do I think of this? Let's see.

I think I would blame our Muslim world before we blame anyone else. Our response to the cartoons was very,very poor. Having signs up like "Death to the U.S.A" really hurts our image exponentially. An innocent German who is home watching his T.V and puts on his local news channel and all he see's is people having signs up, chanting slogans and racial slurs really leads to a negative image and a negative effect on the viewers brain, especially if the viewer is young.(cognitive science agrees with this).

What could we have done? Muslims could have gathered together, a few of our well-educated leaders could have rented a nice place in a hotel(preferably a conference-room)contacted the cartoonist and held some talks, Talks based on mutual understanding,equality and human rights. We could have professionally explained how this hurt our feelings and I am sure they would have understood.

But now that our reaction was so negative, They have made this day called "Draw Muhammad day" in which, I believe on that current day everyone is asked to draw our beloved prophet. Now ask, who's fault is it. Am I trying to justify the cartoonist behaviour? Not at all. But you can see what the response of the Muslim world brought upon us.

Let me make myself and my stance very clear, I am by no way attempting to provide justification for what he did, I just think Muslims handled it very poorly. Was it offensive? Yes to believers it was.

You see, what our youth does not understand is, Lets say for the sake of the argument someone DID indeed kill the cartoonist, doesn't the cartoonist have a community? Doesn't he have children? Just like how Pashtuns are quick to take badal(revenge) so would the cartoonist's family and his community. They would even draw worse stuff to hurt the feelings of the Muslims even more.

We should not, at anytime let our anger get the best of us. So far it seems as though it has for the most part and we are now facing the consequences, people are establishing political careers off of the anger of the Muslim world.

Did I find it offensive? I am sure anyone would find such a thing as insulting, but a lot of people were awaiting upon our response and it did not turn out to be so good. We sort of digged a bigger hole for ourselves.