If God exists...

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Dear brother, could you give me one example, with respect to the Holy Quran.

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

The burden of proof is upon you. First, to prove that there is a God and then to prove that he's your Shi'ite Twelver Muslim God and not the Salafi God, the Nordic God or my Celestial Teapot, who begot his only cup of tea for the world.

If I make an extraordinary claim (that there's a God who has spoken to us), I'll have to prove it with extraordinary evidence.

First define what your definition of "proof" is and also define what "God" is. And secondly, as I said, I BELIEVE there is God, so I didn't make an assertive claim here dear. I said, that the fact that this universe exists, suggest there must be some sort of a "creator" call whatever name you want. So, if you think my theory is wrong, then show me some evidence that prove otherwise. Make yourself clear first, do you BELIEVE god doesn't exist or do you CLAIM God doesn't exist? Read my above post regarding my view of God vs others view of God.

To believe that something was always there and did not have a beginning is illogical. Here's why we don't believe in a God:

- We observe our universe
- We try to find out where it came from
- We study for that end

Until you find out, stop making claims . When you find out, tell me and maybe I will change my mind.

So now instead of studying about the origins of the universe, you'll have to search for this deity that has yet to make contact with us.

See my definition of God dear. Did you even read my post before responding?

You mean a bunch of defective, self-replicating organisms that are in a constant transit towards perfection through evolution?

You are contradicting yourself, at one place you claim that it is illogical "To believe that something was always there" and yet here you are implying that these "defective" things existed forever. So tell me, if it is illogical to believe something always existed then where did your "self-replicating organisms" come from? Or did they just always exist lol? or decided one day to pop out of nowhere.

For 6,000 years, religion has not been able to explain it either. All religions have their own laughable creation fairy tale. At least science is honestly trying to find out the truth instead of saying "hayyy it wuz magick!".

lol this topic is about God, so I will ignore this part of your post for now. But just because a religion can't tell "show" you God, doesn't mean your answer is correct by default. The impossible nature of your claim gives you a false sense of security in its validity, I guess.

[Haider Bangash 2.0]

This is the entire point of this discussion. Why should I revert? Based on what? Just because the Quran says Jump and the Gita says fly does not mean I have to jump or fly.

Then don't, I don't think anybody asked you to lol. But I answered your question based on my previous post, not based on what other people said. I posted something, and then you replied and asked me a question and I answered lol. So yeah, I don't speak for others.

[Wrayun]

You are contradicting yourself, at one place you imply "To believe that something was always there" and yet here you are implying that these "defective" things existed forever. So tell me, if it is illogical to believe something always existed then where did your "self-replicating organisms" come from? Or did they just always exist lol? or decided one day to pop out of nowhere..

Ouch... that hurts.

[Wrayun]

This is the entire point of this discussion. Why should I revert? Based on what? Just because the Quran says Jump and the Gita says fly does not mean I have to jump or fly.

obvious troll is obvious.

Give these guys some credit eh? They are taking their time to answer your questions and you keep hippity hop around the discourse.

[AgnosticPashtana]

obvious troll is obvious.

Give these guys some credit eh? They are taking their time to answer your questions and you keep hippity hop around the discourse.

How did I hippity hop? I have a genuine concern and I want to learn.

Please don't insult me Wrayun.

[Talal]

He exists for some, for some he doesn't .. But he does look after all of us

If your trying to find god in logic or arguments chances are you won't find him..I doubted the same thing and i couldnt find him but when I fell flat on my a$$ when there was nothing else left to do, no one left to help me out he found me and I realized that he was there all along

Don't look for God in these silly things and especially these arguments..we can probably convince you he exists but then again someone else can convince you otherwise too..only you can convince yourself or rather see for yourself.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Momin do you believe in the Bible once being the book of God?

I had earlier addressed a similar question of yours:

Since the Muslims believe in the Bible, many of the Bible stories have been coped from Greek stories.

Is this true?

The Injeel was and is the word of God. The translation for that would be the Gospel. The plural of injeel is anajeel. Allah says that He revealed the injeel (singular) to Hadhrat Isa (as), not the anajeel (plural). Today, and ever since the Bible was brought in its written form, it has always been refered to as the 'Gospels' for there are four of them, The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. So, if you are referring to this "Bible," then no. This was never the book of God. However, if you are referring to the words that Hadhrat Isa (as) spoke, which are preserved in the Bible, then yes, I do believe them to be the word of God even today for it is the injeel.

By the way, the Bible is the collection of the Jewish and Christian scriptures. There is no such referrence in the Holy Quran, dearest brother.

This post of mine might also help the discussion.

Different times needed different messages, until man had evolved enough and was mature enough to be presented with a final and complete message. Prophets were/are/will be the reason why the idea and concept of God was corrected. Our psyche intrinsically will attribute an unknown phenomenon to something. As such, in the past, the idea of a "higher power" was credited with many unexplainable experiences. In due time, these "unexplainable experiences" were being explained because knowledge had started to evolve. With time, the idea of a God became more of a political matter. However, its concept was always pure in definition, so God kept sending prophets to correct, and re-calibrate, the pure the definition. That is one of the reasons why we have so many prophets.

Today, the concept of God is a "joke" among some "intellects," because they think that they know it all now. What they fail to realize is that we have barely touched <1/infinity of all the knowledge that exists.

[Baygham]

Salam Namaste.

Levanaye Z. the correct phrase as said many a decades ago by maulana zafar ali khan is "namaste aliakum, alaikum namaste"

"suna hay, ka aak agray ka musafar
baghal me dhaba chundh weaado kay basthay

deyar-i-arab me woo ja kay pukara
namaste aliakum, alaikum namaste"

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Momin did you read the post that I had made earlier? I asked why the stories in the Bible are nearly identical to the stories of Persians and Greeks?

Sorry, dear friend, I missed this question.

The reason is political. St. Paul Paulineanized the teachings of Jesus (as) by making them appeal more towards the Greeks concept of god and sacrificed. Today's Christianity is in essence Paulinism not Christianity.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Of course he would!

First of all, what language did Jesus (as) speak and what language was the first version of the Bible written in?

Further, ask him to show where in the Bible does it show that Jesus died on the Cross. Please note that I reserve the right to counter anything he says. All of my arguments will be from the Bible itself. We can take it from there, for starters.

[Baygham]

This is how I feel as well. I just want someone to convince me that he exists or tell me something that would make sense he exists.

This is similar to a Philosophy course I took years ago, its about your inner belief. When you tell a Hindu, polytheism is wrong. He will never agree with you, why is that you might ask? Because he has been born in to Hinduism and he has studied Hinduism and to him and his 700million peers only Hinduism makes sense. Similarly to the Muslims here, they are born into the Religion probably 1 out of a million converted and the minute you object that it does not exist, they will out of insecurity badmouth us. I just want to see the light. If he exists, why hasn't science after 1400 years verify this?


nice to meet you Baygham.

I have heard many question god by saying so he created everything than who created the creator. This is the central dilemma, that seperates the naysayers from the believers. After pondering over this many a nights ago I found out who created the creator. We did.

God is a creation of our intellect. This is why he has cultural and lingvistic differences as we room the earth. Just like our folklore changes with central human themes intact, so does our fantasies regarding the creator changes.

Why is there a need for God. Well through out human history, life has been very uncertian, You are fine this morning and at night you are on death bed with fever and dying. You have toiled for 4 months in the fields and a gail storm wipes your future in one night. Uncertainities, whats next; worries, whats coming; did I do something to bring this on, guilt; can I do something to change the future, but how;

Emotions; strong, powerful, painful. The same forces that makes one to get up in the morning, the same force that makes you chase dreams for years, toil in the sun for hours.

The more uncertian the world, the more prevelant these emotions. And just like mothers thousands of years ago, stumbled upon soothing lyrics to calm their crying babies, man invented soothing accounts of God/gods. What ever worked, the ballads spread, lyrics changed, the purpose remained the same.

Soothe the brain, that not only produces intellect but all that comes with it. For an animal threats are real but transient. For humans they persist with our increased capacity of reason, memory and anticipation.

God like a soothing ballad is a tincture for just such worry.

However as humans started to control the environment and with it more and more of their destiny, some are not that agitated or worried. The food on the table is not an issue, health a given, tommorow secure. It is at times of such plenty that you look at your God and say, do I really need him with all that comes with it. For to get soothing relief from a ballad you have to believe in it like a child does. However it is hardly possible to live with santa claus and his alf's in todays real world. Some still living chaotic uncertain lives have to cling on to God, what else is there to provide the needed relief.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

He just wants proof for what you had said about the stories being edited.

I don't think I could have chosen any easier topic. The death of Christ is the foundation of Christianity. Without the death of Christ, Christianity would fall apart overnight.

The proof in what I said is very evident and clear: I proposed two simply questions, yet earth shattering questions. If he can't answer what I ask of him, then what does that show about his position?

He let me give him some food for thought, perhaps this might spark a conversation: why did Jesus (as) pray to have the bitter cup be taken away from him if he was sent to die for the sin of man?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Meemwawmeemnooon,
he took can ask you similar questions about Islam that you might not be able to answer. I think we should give him the answer of what he specifically asked for.

What are you getting at, my friend? I don't think I could have been anymore specific. Nor, could I have made the topic anymore easier.

He can ask me any question he wants. I don't mind.

The Greeks believed in sacrificing people for the gods and that their blood was a symbol of the sincerity of their sacrifice. Hence, if this holds true, then where in the Bible does it show that Jesus volunteered and that he actually died?