If God exists...

[Wrayun]

I have to be fair here and step in. One must not make religion the scape-goat of one's own inabilities and cowardice.

Your story, albeit, might be very touching, but what you stand on is a false premise. You are the prison of your own logic and miscalculations.

Would it be fair to say that your dilemma is not related with religion at all? Because if it was, then you would have to prove that the problems that exist are the result of the teachings of that religion. Can you do that? Rather, I think, it is your own inability, due to your own complexes, to stand up for yourself. You seem to be a calculating person who is selfish and lack the ability and the courage to lose it all for your own liberation.

Further, the irony of the matter, is that being freed does not have any element of reality to it, it is a delusion among unrealistic people. Whichever shape, way or form you slice the cake, the end conclusion is that man is always attached to something and is always limited by certain forces or laws that oblige him to be obedient. One example, is the laws of any country.

What you have said might be a good case for a psychiatrist to figure out, but does not prove the nonexistence of God.

Beyond the clutter. Refreshing to see I'm not the only one.

[Shayesta]

Yes, I have.

What did it look like?

[Dust]

Believing in one Ilah means believing in Allah, without seeing him, but accepting that he does see you and your actions, this is called Ehsaan.

I don't think we need scientific formula's to prove the existence of Allah because believing in Allah and in de Akhira is also part of the Ghayb (hidden/unseen). This is a crucial element of believing. But you could use a simple line of logic to conclude that intelligence or matter can not come into existence without information. You could also say the world and the universe is a painting, which has a painter/creator. It is also beyond any kind of logic to say that there is nothing, no balance and no responsibility for actions.

Let me throw a twist. Hindus believe in God. What do you make of this?

[Baygham]

I have to be fair here and step in. One must not make religion the scape-goat of one's own inabilities and cowardice.

Your story, albeit, might be very touching, but what you stand on is a false premise. You are the prison of your own logic and miscalculations.

Would it be fair to say that your dilemma is not related with religion at all? Because if it was, then you would have to prove that the problems that exist are the result of the teachings of that religion. Can you do that? Rather, I think, it is your own inability, due to your own complexes, to stand up for yourself. You seem to be a calculating person who is selfish and lack the ability and the courage to lose it all for your own liberation.

Further, the irony of the matter, is that being freed does not have any element of reality to it, it is a delusion among unrealistic people. Whichever shape, way or form you slice the cake, the end conclusion is that man is always attached to something and is always limited by certain forces or laws that oblige him to be obedient. One example, is the laws of any country.

What you have said might be a good case for a psychiatrist to figure out, but does not prove the nonexistence of God.

Yes it is cowardice to stand up to men who proxy for God/Allah, to give him his heaven and his 72 virgins and say no thankyou, to let his proxies threaten you with life and limb. Yes it is cowardice indeed.

And I do agree a sane man cannot make this jump. What, give up heaven and earth for nothing in return.

Well my friend there is something in return. A clarity of intelluct that you cannot even imagine. And while you will have to die for your heaven some have it here. A heaven made up from fruits of rational thinking and one that does not involve the slaughter of other human beings.

But then "khar dha kheed pa khurak sa pooheegi"

Would it be fair to say that your dilemma is not related with religion at all? Because if it was, then you would have to prove that the problems that exist are the result of the teachings of that religion. Can you do that?

My dilemma was 100% the creation of the muslim faith as practiced by my family and all around us. They were all the result of the teaching of that religion. God can be a soothing tincture that one uses occasionally and yet continue with rational thinking. Likes the Jews do, the buddists sometimes, even the hindus to some extend, the christens by tolerating the agnostic. In watan no such allowance. Rational thinking does not occur in a practicing musalmans brain in pakhtunkhwa. It cannot. It is like wishing the sun during the middle of the night, the two are mutually exclusive. And it is only for this that the equation to let go of this addictive, soothing tonic is possible.

[Abu Hurayrah]

My dilemma was 100% the creation of the muslim faith as practiced by my family and all around us.

So it started by blaming the car, instead of the driver.

Let me throw a twist. Hindus believe in God. What do you make of this?

That falls under the Tawheed of rububiyyah, if they claim to even believe in one creator. In the subject of Ubudiyyah and Asma wa Sifaat of the islamic monotheism, those religions will be invalidated.

[Dust]

That falls under the Tawheed of rububiyyah, if they claim to even believe in one creator. In the subject of Ubudiyyah and Asma wa Sifaat of the islamic monotheism, those religions will be invalidated.

Do you believe that every single Muslim understands Islam, as it is meant to be understood?

[Dust]

Baygham, again, you have not shown how it is Islam to be blamed for your psychological mishap.

[Baygham]

Baygham, again, you have not shown how it is Islam to be blamed for your psychological mishap.

You got it backwards bro,

your reliance on islam is for your psychological need to curtail anxiety. This treatment renders you incapable of rational thought.

Got it?

Thus if you wish to incorporate rational thinking, you have to let go of your irrational soothing tincture.

You demonstated this point very well by your behavior, The moment you read my account, the anxiety level in the brain went up.
Anxiety #1. Pashtoons can leave musalmani.
Anxiety #2. Rational pashtoons can leave musalmani.
Anxiety #3. There are other thought processess beside musalmani.
Anxiety #4. Maybe I am missing out.

To counter these anxieties, you immediatly built a wall of irrational ideas supporting your beliefs (challanging them will create more anxiety).
Defense mechanism- irrational thought #1. Leaving musalmani is secondary to psychological mishap.
Thought #2. I cannot have a psychological mishap so I cant leave musalmani. I will continue to use it to curtail my anxieties and follow its irrational conclusions which in my distorted perception are rational.

Keep at it bro, I wasnt trying to stir up your world. Be happy in your cave. Like Mo. The real world requires real men who can keep their eyes open and rationally absorb information without breaking down. Learned that as a teenager and has served me very well.

[Dust]

Are saying that I am a Muslim? Just because I am objecting to your approach does not mean that I am a Muslim. What do you think, just because I am not a Muslim I am going to jump on the band-wagon and start giving you "thanks" for every bs you type. I am not that shallow.

I am countering the flaws in your logic. Period. I don't have to be a Muslim to do this. I am simply being fair to our Muslim friends and stressing the point that if you are blaming Islam for your mishaps then this is ridiculous and unfair. I have studied Islam and it is not like what you are describing. That is why I keep probing you to give us reasons from within Islamic teachings that show that you were at a lose because you were a strict adherent to Islam and your problems arose because you had blind faith and now that you have left your practice of Islam you have realized how flawed and illogical Islam really is.

Until you can't prove the above, then my friend, you are no different than those Muslim extremists (notice the word extremist) who shove their own flawed ideology down people's throat.

Let me let you in on a secret, being an Atheist does not mean that your sh!t smells like roses. Atheism is an ideology, just as Islam is. Atheists teach their children that God does not exist; whereas Muslims teach that God exists. However, at the end all that matters is how moral and ethical you are. Atheists have morality and so do Muslims. Atheist have given a lot to the advancement of knowledge and so have the Muslims. In fact, history has it recorded that it was the Muslims who institutionalized academics. At this point in the game they are ahead of us.

Bottom line, don't be the equal of some Muslim radicals on this websites. Just as they are giving Muslims a bad name, you too are giving your brethren a bad name.

[Baygham]

Are saying that I am a Muslim? Just because I am objecting to your approach does not mean that I am a Muslim. What do you think, just because I am not a Muslim I am going to jump on the band-wagon and start giving you "thanks" for every bs you type. I am not that shallow.

I am countering the flaws in your logic. Period. I don't have to be a Muslim to do this. I am simply being fair to our Muslim friends and stressing the point that if you are blaming Islam for your mishaps then this is ridiculous and unfair. I have studied Islam and it is not like what you are describing. That is why I keep probing you to give us reasons from within Islamic teachings that show that you were at a lose because you were a strict adherent to Islam and your problems arose because you had blind faith and now that you have left your practice of Islam you have realized how flawed and illogical Islam really is.

Until you can't prove the above, then my friend, you are no different than those Muslim extremists (notice the word extremist) who shove their own flawed ideology down people's throat.

Let me let you in on a secret, being an Atheist does not mean that your sh!t smells like roses. Atheism is an ideology, just as Islam is. Atheists teach their children that God does not exist; whereas Muslims teach that God exists. However, at the end all that matters is how moral and ethical you are. Atheists have morality and so do Muslims. Atheist have given a lot to the advancement of knowledge and so have the Muslims. In fact, history has it recorded that it was the Muslims who institutionalized academics. At this point in the game they are ahead of us.

Bottom line, don't be the equal of some Muslim radicals on this websites. Just as they are giving Muslims a bad name, you too are giving your brethren a bad name.

Dear dust, you dont even know what my logic is or was. Before finding flaws in my logic can you just spell it out. If you have difficulty I will spell it for you: if you are born in a loving caring muslim family, following the islamic faith as practiced in present day pakhtunkhwa, and you would like to incorporate rational thinking into your life, it is not possible.
I did not forward a logic for that conclusion, it is an observation. How can you find fault in something that is not even presented.

Second observation later in life, after seeing many an academic institutions all the world around I observed that, muslims in general in whom the above conditions are met and are in other cultures, rational thought is lacking.

I have yet to see a single muslim fullfilling the above criteria who is capable of rational thinking in my life. This may be my misfortune, and they may exist on the other side of mount kohikaf, but I havent seen them.

If you know a group please name them.

And as far as muslims forwarding science in the middle ages, all of those will be called murtads in todays nomenclature. Just because they were in present day islamic world, doesnot give present day muslims a right to own them.

A good example is Rumi, great poet, love his poetry, on this forum, ardent followers of wahabism, labelled him a heretic, homosexual, whom they would sangsar if he was born today. Now you are labelling his poetry as muslim glory. Give me a break.

The only nobel science laureate who is ?muslim is considered a kafir in pakistan and saudia. So off the 1 billion muslims one can do research and he happens to be kafir.

Check the science journal, academic institutions, if you find one practicing muslim, from a muslim family, and he has contributed to basic science in the field of physics or biology (both require a departure from religious dogma) than hats off to you.

And as for Logic is concerned, find flaws in it when I present logic for getting to the conclusions drawn from these observations. Attacking observations is not finding flaws in logic, counter them with contrary observations.

Lastly, you could be a salafi, born again christen or an atheist, my answer to you would be the same. I agree I did assume you to be a salafi faithful. I will not make that assumption any more, but kindly educate us and let us know what you believe in.

[Dust]

The flaw in your logic is that you base all of your arguments based on your own experiences. You can't do that.

[khushal]

The flaw in your logic is that you base all of your arguments based on your own experiences. You can't do that.

Dust, your original assumption about baygam is right, He was fed extreme idiology that had no rationality and was told to follow it blindly, and when he came to the west, he turned 180 degrees and became an extremist in another form. He has an addictive personality disorder, he can not live in a world of moderation. He can only be extreme in one way or another, he indulges in everything, he doesnt know when to say this is enough. If you put him in a society with white supremcist, he would be the fist one to lynch a person of color on sight. He can not think for himself but he to be told how to think.

Everytime he post, All I see is the hatred coming out of his heart. There is no logic in that.

[Baygham]

Dust, your original assumption about baygam is right, He was fed extreme idiology that had no rationality and was told to follow it blindly, and when he came to the west, he turned 180 degrees and became an extremist in another form. He has an addictive personality disorder, he can not live in a world of moderation. He can only be extreme in one way or another, he indulges in everything, he doesnt know when to say this is enough. If you put him in a society with white supremcist, he would be the fist one to lynch a person of color on sight. He can not think for himself but he to be told how to think.

Everytime he post, All I see is the hatred coming out of his heart. There is no logic in that.

Khushal wrora, I changed in watan not in the west. Self defense is not extremism.
I dont go to people and tell them grow a beard, believe in A, B and C or I will do X, Y and Z.
that is extremism. I only want to be left alone, in the sanctity of my self and my home. I will not come to your home and will not dishonor the sanctity of your person.

But that is not what is happening, you want the right to come after me with all the powers at your disposal and if I do the same than I am extremist and you are the savior of Allah.

Say you said follow salafi musalmani with A, B and C. I am not stopping you, go ahead but dont come near me. The moment you touch me its a fight. I am in self defence than,
If on the same token I could say follow my village donkey with E, F and G. Then come to your house, or sanction you in some other way, what will you do.

So its ok with you to kill me by calling me murtad but i cannot even protect myself in self defence that will be extremism. Give me a break. Extremism would be if I go and kill some christen misneries who keep yaping outside but dont come inside. Not taliban they have crossed that line long time ago.

[Baygham]

The flaw in your logic is that you base all of your arguments based on your own experiences. You can't do that.

Yes it is anecdotal evidence, far better than shooting from the hip. It actually is a case series and has predictive value. I agree I have not run a prospective, placebo controlled trial and presented data that is statistically significant.

we are discussing religion, and religion is experienced not statistically measured. My observations on the other hand of religion can be statistically measured and if you take my assertion they do have predictive value. Walk into a basic science lab and if you found one practicing musalman in any lab in the world who has made original contribution than come and refute it. Otherwise accept my theory based on case series and with its own predictive model which says it doesnot happen.

The only flaw in my logic that you find is that it counters your beliefs. Your beliefs are not yours because you have statistically significant double blind placebo controlled prospective data for it, it is because one morning you decided or were born into a culture that made the decision for you that it will be X, Y and Z. Could easily have been donkey number six , or a star, a frog or whatever.

BTW, show me one logic behind your beliefs, you are too afraid to even share what you beliefs are, show us so we see your LOGIC.

[Dust]

The problem with your pattern of thinking is that just because you disagree with the existence of God, you automatically assume that the rest of Islam is wrong. This is logical fallacy at its best.

The Quran could still be correct despite the absence of God. My study of the Quran is suggesting that a God could exist. I am not sure though.

Further, there are Muslims who have won the Nobel Prize. In fact, one in physics.