There is no Islamism in Islam

[Badlun]

It's not because Islamic State has to be ruled by a Khalifa or Amir, neither of these is SA. KSA is ruled by a Malik, that's why it is KINGDOM of Saudia Arabia, not Dawlat Al Islamiyah Al 'Arabia

The assumptions for secularism doesn't apply for Islam because Islam is more specific than secularism in how it defines itself.

It means UAE ruled by an Amir is a true Islamic state? Can you give any other example. May be the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan of Taliban?

Why we do not understand this simple fact that no where in history we did not see a pure Islamic state because having an Islamic state is just not possible because Islam is not a state, it is a religion. If we take the first 30 years of 4 caliphs as an example, then 30 years cannot be compared to the 1400 unislamic statehood in the Muslims' history.

[Badlun]

Islamism does not have a concept, its a made up word used by the media, every Islamopheobe has their own definition of Islamism.



You regurgitate these exact sentences over and over again for the past few years now, every time you are given an answer you appear the next day and say the exact same thing, your words are like a broken record playing over and over again. Islam is not only a religion it is A WAY OF LIFE, comprehende? i repeat ISLAM IS A WAY OF LIFE, understand? one more time, ISLAM IS A WAY OF LIFE..ok one more time incase you missed it: ISLAM IS A WAY OF LIFE - now then, what is a way of life?? a way of life for people includes politics (otherwise there would be no such thing as Sharia law), economics and so fourth. Muslims are not monks to detach away from the world completely. We make supplications to the lord to be successful in the dunya and also in deen. This is very simple to understand.



Yes. Sharia is politics. There are Islamic laws in regards economy such as interest, business management, trading etc. Education is a BIG thing in Islam, Muslims did not set the stepping stones for modern advancements without education, there is a lack of education in Muslims country's at the moment hence all the backwardness. In short, these things are fundamentals of Islam BUT not the ONLY fundamentals.



These are the five pillars, monotheism is a broad subject, its not just believing in one god and that is it. no, its about believing in the lords revelations, adhering to his commandments etc which covers so much more than five simple words, that you base your life around. If you as an individual challenge the teachings of Allah and you make your own religion then you are not abiding by the pillar of Islam monotheism because you are your own god.



Nope, it is not as simple as that, sorry. This might make you a Muslim, yes..but will it safeguard you from hellfire?. A complete Muslim submits himself to the will of Allah, follows the teachings of his Prophet which is a broad subject.



Wrong again, ofcourse they are part of Islam.

Where on the face of earth is found this WAY OF LIFE in the form of state, economy, scientific and educational system? Give some examples where Islam was successfully implemented in politics, economics, education and science.

Where Sharia is implemented as the legal code of an Islamic state? We see Islam in mosque but not in capitals and seats of governments and economic institutions as well as universities and research centers.

Why Islam is defined by Prophet in this famous Jibril hadith only in this way where no politics, economics, science etc are not mentioned.

Muhammad, tell me about Islam.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless with him and grant him peace, said, 'Islam is that you witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and you establish the prayer, and you give the Zakat, and you fast Ramadan, and you perform the hajj of the House if you are able to take a way to it.' He said, 'You have told the truth,' and we were amazed at him asking him and [then] telling him that he told the truth.

[Badlun]

lets ask badlun a question, if there is a secular government and the Quran is burned in the name of freespeech and beliefs, what should be done with them?

How about insulting the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?

There are laws, rules, regulations in the penal codes, criminal procedure codes etc which make it a crime if you injure religious sentiments of others. Sacrilege and blasphemy is not allowed and laws can be enacted in a secular state because secularism is religious freedom and religious tolerance not the otherwise. Secularism does not forbade religion but separate it from politics.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

It means UAE ruled by an Amir is a true Islamic state? Can you give any other example. May be the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan of Taliban?

.

But they're not an Islamic Amir since they don't rule by Shari'ah, you need that contingent as well. Taliban used Pashtunwali to determine rulings so they cannot be considered a Shari'ah state.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

There are laws, rules, regulations in the penal codes, criminal procedure codes etc which make it a crime if you injure religious sentiments of others. Sacrilege and blasphemy is not allowed and laws can be enacted in a secular state because secularism is religious freedom and religious tolerance not the otherwise. Secularism does not forbade religion but separate it from politics.

'
In America you can burn a Qur'an w/o penalty of Law. America is at least officially secular. So your claim is false.

The problem with secularism is that it has the WRONG penal codes, they allow things which should be forbidden and forbid things that should be allowed.

[Badlun]

But they're not an Islamic Amir since they don't rule by Shari'ah, you need that contingent as well. Taliban used Pashtunwali to determine rulings so they cannot be considered a Shari'ah state.

Then where is this utopia of islamic state, sharia state? Apart from the books where does this state of Islamists exist on the surface of the earth? Any example, any model, any proof. If in 1400 years we could not see this ideal state then when we will see it? Who will establish it?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Even if this is true, Assuming your hypothesis is correct, which I don't agree with; there's no utopic secular state either; so given that's the case for Muslims it's better to be Islamic because utopic or not, Islamic State serves their interests better but secularism compromises Muslim interests. So your point is actually irrelevant from a practical standpoint. We don't need utopia to be Islamic we just need Shari'ah. The Taliban, UAE are not examples of Shari'ah so they're not Islamic.

[Badlun]

Even if this is true, Assuming your hypothesis is correct, which I don't agree with; there's no utopic secular state either; so given that's the case for Muslims it's better to be Islamic because utopic or not, Islamic State serves their interests better but secularism compromises Muslim interests. So your point is actually irrelevant from a practical standpoint. We don't need utopia to be Islamic we just need Shari'ah. The Taliban, UAE are not examples of Shari'ah so they're not Islamic.

OK no utopia but where is the simple Islamic state, the sharia state on the surface of the earth? When something is very good like supposedly the so called Sharia state then it should have some form of existence. Human generally adopts what practically serves. If Sharia Islamic state is something good then it should exist somewhere.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Well you've read history, it's there many examples but even if it was never there, doesn't mean we can't create one. So all your arguments holds no merit because just because there was a lack of something in the past doesn't mean now in the future we can't establish it. So even if your hypothesis were correct it doesn't prove anything. However it isn't correct because we know from historical narrative that Islamic Law was used by people to Govern.

[DaZahroJaam.]

Islamism we find in the form of Taliban and Al Qaeda who are the worst enemies of Islam itself.

We find it that way because of how it has been portrayed by the western media who has given a negative connotation to the term. We, as Muslims should be well aware of the fact that in reality, that is not what Islam is about.

But let's assume, for argument's sake that it was a part of Islam. Will you concede to it?

[کیش]

I liked the part where you ignored my response which proved the origins of your favorite made up word.

Islam was a religion during its first 10 years, in Mecca. After their expulsion from that city it expanded to a philosophy bigger than any religion.

[Khostai]

Turkey isn't even ruled by secularists anymore, they were the most "enforced" Secular country just 20 years ago. That's all gone now pretty much. Egypt didn't do anything, it's western backed puppets that did it. That's the only way people won't want Shari'ah is if foreign imperialists intervene to prevent it. So who's going to enforce secularism? Foreigners, but their power is waning. Secularism isn't the Middle Path, it's the opposing path.

Turkey goverment don't need to enforce secularism because they already changed the culture of Turkey to that of secular country, even the so called Islamic parties over there still don't want to change the constitution that strictly seperates state from religion. Just becuase they want to restrict alcohol and allowed headscarfs in goverment and school institutions doesn't mean they are going to be the next Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Foreign intervention has littel to do with Egypt when Morsi himself ignored almost half of its population and started Islamising the country, quite stupid if you know that you only won by 2 precent difference from a secularist.

Secularism will enforce itself, the only parties and groups that want sharia are taliban, Al Qaida and some arab wahabist, the other groups are still open for a secular state but want the laws and constitution to be influenced or inspired by shariah. And there is a big difference between influenced by shariah and implementing shariah in your country.

And once peace restores, thanx to globalisation the road for secularisation is open, and by the way looking at Iraq who has shia and sunni fighting what kind of Sharia will they implement, Syria with it christian and other religious minorities, what kind of Sharia are they going to implement????

[RevolutionThroughReason]

The fact there are even Islamic Parties running in elections in Turkey demonstrates that this delusion of Turkey as a bastion of secularism doesn't exist. Secular = NO church and state, not some church and state. Turkey did enforce secularism but yet now it is ruled by an Islamic party. And the reason there's no change in constitution is that Islamists are reengineering society first.

Sissi is former Mubarak brass, has worked with foreign (read as Western) intelligence and has received money from their payroll but it has nothing to do with intervention. Heck they even had to STAGE protests against Morsi.
Only people wanting secularism are European masters and their slaves.Who are you trying to fool here?

[Badlun]

I liked the part where you ignored my response which proved the origins of your favorite made up word.

Islam was a religion during its first 10 years, in Mecca. After their expulsion from that city it expanded to a philosophy bigger than any religion.

You said there is no dictionary word as Islamism and I gave you few links where Islamism was defined by dictionaries.

It means the Prophet was committing sin of not implementing Islamism in Makkah if Islamism is part of Islam?

In Madinah Muhammad was a prophet of the religion of Islam but at the same time an Arab leader. Many things he did cannot be part of the religion of Islam like killing or banishing Jews, having more than 4 wives, marrying a child, marrying wife of an adopted son,offensive and defensive wars etc

Do you think such verses can be part of a religion or an Arab political system

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Quran 8.12: "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

[Badlun]

Well you've read history, it's there many examples but even if it was never there, doesn't mean we can't create one. So all your arguments holds no merit because just because there was a lack of something in the past doesn't mean now in the future we can't establish it. So even if your hypothesis were correct it doesn't prove anything. However it isn't correct because we know from historical narrative that Islamic Law was used by people to Govern.

I will highly appreciate if you briefly share those examples from history where a 100% real Islamic state ever existed. Otherwise I will quote "He who orders his slave to do things that he knows him to be incapable of doing, then punishes him, is a fool" from Muhamamd al Warraq.