There is no Islamism in Islam

[Badlun]

In this thread I would like discuss the difference between Islam and Islamism. My main proposition is that Islamism does not exist in Islam. Islam is the name of religion while Islamism is a political and non religious concept.

Islam being a religion is mainly concerned with faith and morality related matters like any other religion of the world while Islamism is involving Islam with politics, economy, culture, as a way of life and extending Islam to non religious aspects of life. Islamism we find in the form of Taliban and Al Qaeda who are the worst enemies of Islam itself. Sufism is the form where we find Islam as a religion.

Is politics, economy, culture, education etc the fundamentals of Islam?
No, then what are the fundamentals of Islam?
The famous five pillars: Monotheism, prayers, charity, fasting and pilgrimage.

If I believe in these five pillars then am I a complete Muslim? Yes.
Only Islamic morality is required in politics, economy etc but politics, wars, economic affairs, cultural matters etc are not part of the religion of Islam but parts of Islamism.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

There is no such a thing as Islamism if you exclude ikhwanis.

The rest of your post is yet another repitition of your concocted definition of religion.

[Karachi]

Islamic rules in politics and other things you mentioned are suppose to be applied by a proper (muslim) government. Unfortunately things go out of hand when individuals themselves take these rules in their hands and use them. This is indeed wrong and will never work. Extremists do this. Unfortunatly currently there is no proper muslim country/government to set an example for muslims

[Badlun]

There is no such a thing as Islamism if you exclude ikhwanis.

The rest of your post is yet another repitition of your concocted definition of religion.

Ikhwanis, Jamate Islami, Jamiat e Islami, Jamiate Ulema Islam, Hizbe islami , Taliban, Al Qaeda affiliated organizations in Middle East and Africa etc all of them want government in the name of Islam so along with Ikhwanis all of them are Islamists.

Tableeghis, Salafis, Ahle Hadith, Wahabis, Brelvis etc are at least culturally Islamists. They want Arab culture to be part of Islam. They stop elements of local cultures and art like music, fine arts, paintings, photography, sculpture, dance etc in the name of Islam. Al Qaeda and Taliban are directly or indirectly their political wings.

Can you please give your definition of Islam? What is Islam?
What are the minimum prerequisites for being a Muslim?

[Badlun]

Islamic rules in politics and other things you mentioned are suppose to be applied by a proper (muslim) government. Unfortunately things go out of hand when individuals themselves take these rules in their hands and use them. This is indeed wrong and will never work. Extremists do this. Unfortunatly currently there is no proper muslim country/government to set an example for muslims

Do you have any example of a proper Muslim government in the past 1400 years. Even the first 4 caliphs had various issues like differences between people from Madina and Makkah, differences between Ali and others, battles of Ali and Ayesha, battles of Ali and Muawaya, murders of all the 3 caliphs etc.

If we do not have a proper Muslim government in so many centuries then it means it is not a reality to base government on Islam.

Why things go out of hand because Islam is a religion not a political system like communism, socialism, democracy, monarchy, dictatorship, aristocracy, plutocracy etc.

Few individuals and groups like Taliban try to base their government on Islam but as it is not possible pragmatically, they are always failed.

[jankhan]

No Muslims use the word ''islamism''.
This word is invented by the enemies of Islam.
Islam is a way of life. It guides you in all walks of life.
We know you want to push Islam into the corners of the mosques as the christians have to done to their religion.

[Badlun]

No Muslims use the word ''islamism''.
This word is invented by the enemies of Islam.
Islam is a way of life. It guides you in all walks of life.
We know you want to push Islam into the corners of the mosques as the christians have to done to their religion.

If Muslims do not use a word, it does not mean the word or the phenomenon does not exist.

Yes if Islam is pushed back to mosque which is its due place in the world, world will get rid of Taliban and Al Qaeda like menaces. Otherwise you will see what is going on in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Mali, Nigeria for many centuries to come.

The Frankenstein monster of Islamism has to be killed once and for all and Islam has to be restricted to mosque, souls, hearts, homes not capitals of states and seats of governments. Mullah should manage affairs of mosque not government. This is simple.

[Shehbaz Khan]

Juda ho deen siyasat say to reh jati hay changezi!

[Badlun]

Juda ho deen siyasat say to reh jati hay changezi!

There was a time when I was a great admirer of Dr Iqbal and I used to refer his these verses in my discussions. I have read almost all his Urdu and Persian books. I still appreciate his books like, The reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam, but his theory of Pan Islamism and his religious extremism is a total typical propaganda of an Islamist. Still Iqbal has some virtues but he is a paradoxical personality.

He is follower of Rumi but against mysticism, Plato and admirer of Arab desert based traits. He was a drinker or drunkard but teaching pure religiosity and extremism to others. According to him women must remain restricted to two places, houses or graves.

His this verse of deen and syasat is a totally idealistic poetic expression. It can have one sense if you define deen to be morality and rule of law. Yes politics must be based on morality and law otherwise it will be changeezi(cruelty). But you cannot base the whole political system on religion otherwise Islamists Taliban will be your rulers. Theocracy is no where accepted in this modern era.

[jankhan]

If Muslims do not use a word, it does not mean the word or the phenomenon does not exist.

Yes if Islam is pushed back to mosque which is its due place in the world, world will get rid of Taliban and Al Qaeda like menaces. Otherwise you will see what is going on in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Mali, Nigeria for many centuries to come.

The Frankenstein monster of Islamism has to be killed once and for all and Islam has to be restricted to mosque, souls, hearts, homes not capitals of states and seats of governments. Mullah should manage affairs of mosque not government. This is simple.

Badlun we understand what you want to say but it all happened because of you secularists. I remember when religeous people used to stay limited to their mosques and used to do only ibadahs, you secularists used to say to them, ''these mullahs do not know anything about the world affairs, they should participate in politics, in world affairs, in business, in world politics, in daily life affairs, in social life affairs, in medicine, in universities and in all walks of life they should practically show how to deal with the world rather than teaching these old type stories in the mosques and do all the time just prayers and fastings etccc.... Now when they are doing what you have taught them so you are crying now looooooooooooooooool.....
Secondly I don't understand what is your problem with the religious people ?
All the Muslim countries are ruled and dominated by the secularists then why do you always cry about the religious people.
No religious system exists in any of the Muslim country.

[Badlun]

Badlun we understand what you want to say but it all happened because of you secularists. I remember when religeous people used to stay limited to their mosques and used to do only ibadahs, you secularists used to say to them, ''these mullahs do not know anything about the world affairs, they should participate in politics, in world affairs, in business, in world politics, in daily life affairs, in social life affairs, in medicine, in universities and in all walks of life they should practically show how to deal with the world rather than teaching these old type stories in the mosques and do all the time just prayers and fastings etccc.... Now when they are doing what you have taught them so you are crying now looooooooooooooooool.....
Secondly I don't understand what is your problem with the religious people ?
All the Muslim countries are ruled and dominated by the secularists then why do you always cry about the religious people.
No religious system exists in any of the Muslim country.

Yes, it was a great mistake involving Mullahs in worldly affairs. US is the biggest culprit int his regard who utilized Mullahs in the name of Mujahideen against erstwhile USSR. This is why I call Islamism a Frankenstein monster that we ourselves invented it. But we cannot let this monster to kill us furthermore because we invented it.

My problem is not only with Islamists but also with dictators, military rulers, aristocrats, monarchs, kings, princes etc in Muslim world. Islamists never ruled except Taliban and Ikhwans for a short while but non democratic rulers are ruling the Muslim world for centuries. Both are evils. The issue is the viscous circle that you remove dictator like Saddam, Qaddafi, Mubarak, Asad and islamists take the charge. We have to break this viscous circle.

The damage of Islamism is more at grass roots social and cultural level as general Muslims suffer from Islamists like Taliban. The worst scenario will be when Taliban will also politically rule as they ruled in Afghanistan and Swat.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Badlun, who is "we"

[RevolutionThroughReason]

If Muslims do not use a word, it does not mean the word or the phenomenon does not exist.

.

Using similar logic; just because you USE a word, doesn't mean that phenomenon exists? How can Islam be pushed back to the Mosque when Islam did not start IN the Mosque to begin with? Islam started outside the Mosque and was used to rule the People from the very moment it came. The evidence that Islam was intended to rule society is overwhelming, that to claim otherwise means one does not know the reality of Islam.

You can try to put Islam in a cage, but you will lose; Islam is too powerful and dynamic to keep restricted to 4 walls. You will never succeed and in fact, you've already lost. Secularism has lost in the Middle East and lost in Afghanistan. Even Karzai's government needs to be approved by Shari'ah first or else it will get rebellion.

[jankhan]

Yes, it was a great mistake involving Mullahs in worldly affairs. US is the biggest culprit int his regard who utilized Mullahs in the name of Mujahideen against erstwhile USSR. This is why I call Islamism a Frankenstein monster that we ourselves invented it. But we cannot let this monster to kill us furthermore because we invented it.

My problem is not only with Islamists but also with dictators, military rulers, aristocrats, monarchs, kings, princes etc in Muslim world. Islamists never ruled except Taliban and Ikhwans for a short while but non democratic rulers are ruling the Muslim world for centuries. Both are evils. The issue is the viscous circle that you remove dictator like Saddam, Qaddafi, Mubarak, Asad and islamists take the charge. We have to break this viscous circle.

The damage of Islamism is more at grass roots social and cultural level as general Muslims suffer from Islamists like Taliban. The worst scenario will be when Taliban will also politically rule as they ruled in Afghanistan and Swat.

Badlun you accept that religious people never ruled any Muslims country in the recent past i mean in the last 100 years, and the power has always been in the hands of the secularists then how can you blame the religious people ?
After Saddam, Qaddafi, Mubarak, Asad no Islamist took the charge except in egypt and they were not islamists but islamic party Muslim brother which came through a democratic process, if you don't accept that then you have some mental problem.
Well for your kind information taliban never ruled in swat. yeah taliban did ruled in Afghanistan for just 6 years lol.... and you expect from them some wonders in six years in a war torn country loooool ?
Today the forty super powers of the world are doing their best in Afghanistan for the last 14 years and they could not do anything good, even now trying to find a safe way. So how can you expect anything good from taliban do some wonders in six years where they had trade embargoes and sanctions and no business and so many other problems....

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Badlun is suggesting all men educated in the Islamic sciences should be banned from participating in a secular, liberal democratic society where everyone is equal and every individual has equal rights.

Anyone can bring his own philosophical ideas into politics except Muslims.

Yet, people still claim Badlun is a Muslim. LOL

Badlun's ideas are less liberal and less democratic than that of far right neo-nazi's of Europe who want exclude specific segments of society from the entire social life.