There is no Islamism in Islam

[Badlun]

OK present is for secularism but in past if you compare the Muslim empires with the so called Sharia and the non Muslim empires without Sharia then who wins?

The Romans, the Persian(Cyrus was the greatest emperor of all the times), Greeks/Macedonians, Chinese, Hindu, The British empire where sun was never set, the Spanish empire, the French empire, the Portuguese empire, the recent Soviet Union etc or the the so called Sharia empires of Delhi Sultans, Mughals, Ottomans, Abbasids, Umayayds, Saffavids, Fatimids etc. Just tell who were greater?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I can say the same thing, Past is for secularism. now it is time for Islam to reemerge. Muslims do not work well with secularism; Keep secularism for Westerners and Islam for us. that is the best solution. I'd say Islam always wins, not simply because I am Muslim but because Islam is the most balance path, balance always win. Secularism is too chaotic.

[Badlun]

Then according to you the future can be for Islamism(not Islam as Islam always existed, exists and will exists as an important religion but not a political system).

I do not know if in 1400 years it could not win from its opponent option, then how in the presence of Taliban, Al Qaeda, Salafis, Wahabis, Deobandis Islamism can win? Muslims are mostly poor, uneducated, illiterate with no science, technology and industry.

Sufi Muslims do not consider material part of the world worthy to be focused. Mutazelites are part of the history. Except RTR I have never seen/known any Mutazelite. Ikhwanis had a chance in Egypt but again secularists won there. I do not know on what basis you think future is for Islamism?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

well Islamism is just a Western Middle Eastern studies code word for Islam; there is atcually no difference between Islam and Islamism; it is just a manufactured word.i, Secularists didn't actually win, they cheated in Egypt. As for Deobandi, Taliban, etc etc we have shown in reality they're forms of Pashtunwali in disguise. Islam is not represented by Pashtunwali.

[Manzareh]

In football you have two types of fans/supporters.. One that is passionate about his team, win or lose his loyalty is never shaken..he is commonly reffered to as a 'real fan' then there's the other type, one that drifts from team to team based on wins or loses, they have no loyalty they are only concerned with being attached to the wining side..these are the most hated type of fans, the fake phoney type that are referred to as 'glory supporters' .. You my friend are a glory supporter to a whole new level, you take glory supporting to a religious level. Pathetic.

[Manzareh]

OK present is for secularism but in past if you compare the Muslim empires with the so called Sharia and the non Muslim empires without Sharia then who wins?

The Romans, the Persian(Cyrus was the greatest emperor of all the times), Greeks/Macedonians, Chinese, Hindu, The British empire where sun was never set, the Spanish empire, the French empire, the Portuguese empire, the recent Soviet Union etc or the the so called Sharia empires of Delhi Sultans, Mughals, Ottomans, Abbasids, Umayayds, Saffavids, Fatimids etc. Just tell who were greater?

What is winning? Do you care about the crimes these empires commited or the method in which these 'great' empires implemented their rule..or is that irrelevant in your view of 'success' and 'winning'

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Badlun will say every crime done by Westerners is "realpolitik" but if it is done by Muslims it is cruelty and barbarism lol


When Secularists use Military to murder people who democratically elected an Islamic Government and then killed and silence people who protested the overthrow to make it seem like their "coup" is popularly backed, It is real politik.

[Badlun]

When you say Islam(ism) give solutions to real problems so I challenge where are those solutions in the 1400 years? This is my definition of success. If sharia or Islamism would work then what we see in the developed West, could be seen in Muslim world. Muslims are crazy for the West? Obviously for better life opportunities. So called Sharia has given them nothing.

The 1400 years time period is more than sufficient to try a system. In the era of empires and dictatorships non Muslims are the winners and in the democratic era of to day again non Muslims are the winners.

Islam is winner as a religion but not as a system(Islamism). It has given moral and spiritual guidance to millions as Islam but Islamism has never been proved to be beneficial for humanity as whenever it was tried like i Afghanistan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq , Somalia etc, the results are horrible.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

The question should be where haven't they been there? Shari'ah is a very sophisticated system of analysis of social issues and how to tackle them. It's very detailed in Every Major Fiqh book. You said that you read Al-Quduri, Al Hidayah and Durr Al Mukhtar, did you actually read them or did you just repeat their names because you know their popularity. If you ever read and study these books some of the things they refer to are more advanced in their thinking than Western Law even is till this day. Islam has proven itself many times in 1400 years. Abbasids, Ghaznawids, Andalusia, Uthmaniyah. These were historical super powers. All were Muslim and all depended on Shari'ah.

The lack of Islam in the West has nothing to do whether it works; It has to do with the Clash of Civilization; the West will never accept anything that isn't Western in origin, but they want everyone to accept Western ideologies. The West should not be used as a measure of the merits of something, because cultural opinions are highly unreliable and subjective. '

If Muslims had the modern science and technology and applied it within the framework Islam, then it would be unstoppable. Only reason Muslims do not is because Muslims became Lazy, But Islam teaches us to develop; if people ignore Shari'ah it is their own fault. Like I said Islam and Shari'ah are TOOLS, no tool will work unless it is applied. Just like You cannot see the benefits of Computer unless you turn on the computer. Same with Islam. Secularism only succeeded by corruption and cheating; Which you call Realpolitik.

[Manzareh]

Secularism only succeeded by corruption and cheating; Which you call Realpolitik.

Badlun, if in Islam/Shariah it was permissible to accept corruption and cheating Muslims would have a greater world dominance.. for example, Shariah doesn't permit nuclear missiles to be let of in Japan to kill hundreds of thousands, however in secularism you can if it will assert your dominance and make you 'win' as you put it.

[DaZahroJaam.]

what difference does it make whether sharia allows it or not if something like that does happen in a state where sharia is supposed to be in order and it fails to prevent it from happening.
you can easily say that secular states don't allow or encourage suicide bombing and that sharia doesn't do anything about it. would it be accurate, yeah. would it mean anything, nope.
and camelboy, aka scimitar, you are such a coward. you catch each and every single mistake of those that you don't agree with but never bother yourself by questioning any of the bull**** that others who have happened to pat you in the back spew around. how gutless.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

well let me be the first to correct that. Islamic Scholars have condemned Suicide Attacks and that the act of committing such would lead one to Hell. So you're wrong. The Shari'ah does oppose suicide attacks,unfortunately we don't have an appropriate system in place to enforce this.

[DaZahroJaam.]

their condemnation and the usa apologizing for mistakingly barbequing innocent civilians hold the same amount of merit.
present sharia to a state as the phenomenal political system when it can prove it's self to be that in all it's aspects by stepping above every other option out there. the only country that has taken advantage of their nuclear weapons is the united states and those morons are not a good example of anything let alone seculirsim. even with that, it has been used twice in the history of mankind and against it's enemieies.
how many suicide bombers have we had in the last 10 years and how often has it been used on people other than afghans themselves?? the very fact that they could not prevent these individuals from being brainwashed is their incompetience.
they have all the time in the world to chase down individuals, skin them or bury them alive to teach others of the importance of following islam properly but heaven forbid should anyone gather a few people and teach them something that does not involve smashing someone's skull in half.
if you can't teach islam as a religion properly, on what grounds are you going to justify forcing on people the sharia law as a political system?? bring forward the idea when you have a proper system that can prove it's self rather than the shallow excuses.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Well without a state apparatus you can't enforce things, you can try but then you're competing against already existing state apparatus which is much more well financed and funded. The goal thus now is to focus on comandeering or establishing an alternate apparatus which is what the target goal is. Without an actual state apparatus little can be done unless you want to end up being LIKE those suicide attackers.

[DaZahroJaam.]

so all the begging and ass kissing is about funding an alternate apparatus. because let's face it, anyone with a pinch of common sense could recognize the potential and success rate of an idea derived from such amount of ignorance. and as efficient as you filthy conniving arabs are, you can only brainwash so many people at a time.
hmm, that explains alot.