Slavery intrinsic to Arab Culture?

[khushal]

so what are you saying that islam would sanction slavery today?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I'm asking you what evidence do you have from Islamic legal canon regarding everything you stated in your response to Randolph85.

I'm not pronouncing anything; I just want to hold you accountable for saying things without supporting it.

[Soldat_Amir]

Khushal, why is it unthinkable for you to accept that Pashtuns most likely if not with 100% certainty practiced slavery? Pashtuns have been the choice soldiery of all the invaders from the north whether Turks, Iranians, and Afghans? Were these soldiers angels, immune to worldly temptations ?

It is said that Mahmoud of Ghazna captured so many slaves during his campaigns of India that the slaves he supplied to Bukhara glutted the slave marketthere ---and many were killed on the way while crossing Hindukush ---so the name Hindukush (Hindu-killer). It is worth mentioning that Pashtuns (Khalj/Ghalji and Afghans) formed the bulk of his army.

The fact is, a Pashtun can be as greedy and rapacious as any other human being if not more due to his weak economic circumstances. And he treats women like trash (fortunately, this situation is changing fast specially in KP where urbanization is on the rise).

Not just this, Kabul markets were full of Hazara slaves under the reign of Abdur Rahman.

Plus Taliban took 200 Hazara concubines too.

Its funny these western born Pashtuns have no idea of their own history. Obviously the Pashtuns learnt their Slavery loving antics from somewhere.

They talk of Pashtuns being undefeatable, impossible to conquer and immune to invaders yet they pray to Saudi Arabia, they changed their dress, they name their children in Arabic and they kill each other for the same god as Arabs.

but wait, they will hide this fact with that we were all from King Saul and we are Bani Israel, even though the 1000s of buddist templates, statues unearthed in Pashtun regions was because we came from Arab and JEw lands and expelled them.

Useless topic

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Soldat are you implying that Buddhists never practiced slavery

[khushal]

I'm asking you what evidence do you have from Islamic legal canon regarding everything you stated in your response to Randolph85.

I'm not pronouncing anything; I just want to hold you accountable for saying things without supporting it.

Im getting it from the Qur'an. how can one say that slavery is legal or not haram when the Qur'an is full of verses that promotes freedom for slaves.

[khushal]

Your reasoning is faulty and based on fallacious premises. Firstly Amanullah banned veiling, reduced dowries, and emancipated women as well. Veiling, high dowries and female subjugation was prominent in Afghanistan, He didn't ban veils because he thought humans were "capable" of veiling. So you're being presumptuous in saying that was the case with veiling. Secondly he didn't ban alcohol, alcohol consumption and availability wasn't significant in Afghanistan. for your claim to be true he would have banned all human vices that humans were capable of. Thus it was because it was prominent in Afghanisstan.

Another reason logic fails because Afghanistan's policies don't apply to all humans, only humans in afghanistan. Thus humans being capable of something isn't a reasoning .

Thus banning slavery can only be signficiant if it was practiced wide spread.

This argument is flawed. the government has never had control over the tribals and the tribals havent ever really recognized the governments authority. the government have unsuccessfully tried to reform the tribes. If slavery was intrinisic as you say it was, it would still be there in some fashion for example Fayes example of bacha bazi. it has been banned by numerous afghan government but it still exists in some fashion. The Taliban totally eliminated it but it propped up again as soon as they were gone. Another example are women being regarded as property is banned by the governmnet but this practice exists widely.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Im getting it from the Qur'an. how can one say that slavery is legal or not haram when the Qur'an is full of verses that promotes freedom for slaves.

but where does it forbid slavery?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Im getting it from the Qur'an. how can one say that slavery is legal or not haram when the Qur'an is full of verses that promotes freedom for slaves.

I am just asking you to supply evidence for your last several posts; please show evidence for those posts; not this one..

[RevolutionThroughReason]

This argument is flawed. the government has never had control over the tribals and the tribals havent ever really recognized the governments authority. the government have unsuccessfully tried to reform the tribes. If slavery was intrinisic as you say it was, it would still be there in some fashion for example Fayes example of bacha bazi. it has been banned by numerous afghan government but it still exists in some fashion. The Taliban totally eliminated it but it propped up again as soon as they were gone. Another example are women being regarded as property is banned by the governmnet but this practice exists widely.

That's a tangential issue and also not entirely true; many tribes were loyal to Amanullah so this falsifies your first claim

evidence:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7LKS93lbSM0C&pg=PA19&dq=tribes+loyal+to+Amanullah&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1vET7eMB8iI6AHD1amtCg&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=tribes%20loyal%20to%20Amanullah&f=false

As for your second claim we see slavery in numerous forms today; the Hazara women taken as sex slaves

evidence

http://books.google.com/books?id=8n_2rEURJf4C&pg=PA107&dq=Hazara+sex+slaves&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IVzET9DKGum_6AHdmpmJBA&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hazara%20sex%20slaves&f=false

Sex Trafficking happening; EVEN amongst Pashtuns.

evidence

http://books.google.com/books?id=689T1m6JeV8C&pg=PA36&dq=Pashtuns+sex+trafficking&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8lzET9fPDuqw6AHtj5G8BQ&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Pashtuns%20sex%20trafficking&f=false

So there is ample representation; How ironic that you often assert that others are merely going by what media popularizes; but you similarly lack the awareness of what happens in Afghanistan precisely as a result of lacking popular media representation.

So your argument is moot; it's based on a narrative you relay and not a real world defacto example.

[khushal]

That's a tangential issue and also not entirely true; many tribes were loyal to Amanullah so this falsifies your first claim

evidence:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7LK...nullah&f=false

As for your second claim we see slavery in numerous forms today; the Hazara women taken as sex slaves

evidence
http://books.google.com/books?id=8n_...slaves&f=false

Sex Trafficking happening; EVEN amongst Pashtuns.

evidence
http://books.google.com/books?id=689...icking&f=false

So there is ample representation; How ironic that you often assert that others are merely going by what media popularizes; but you similarly lack the awareness of what happens in Afghanistan precisely as a result of lacking popular media representation.

So your argument is moot; it's based on a narrative you relay and not a real world defacto example.

none of your sources claim pashtuns were slave owners as arabs were as your argument entails. the book about hazaras being sex slaves mentions no evidence.
sex traficking is also not mentions in the other book as you claim. your relabeling things to fit your goal of demonizing the pashtun ethnicity.

amanalah had support of the tribes as providing fighting men but not that it would abey his constitution. lol

all you have done is proved what unknownprince and GYE were saying, that you are a preverted individual. your putting links of books that have nothing to do with the argument at hand.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

none of your sources claim pashtuns were slave owners as arabs were as your argument entails. the book about hazaras being sex slaves mentions no evidence.
sex traficking is also not mentions in the other book as you claim. your relabeling things to fit your goal of demonizing the pashtun ethnicity.

amanalah had support of the tribes as providing fighting men but not that it would abey his constitution. lol

all you have done is proved what unknownprince and GYE were saying, that you are a preverted individual. your putting links of books that have nothing to do with the argument at hand.

But your gauging pattern was by representation (quote 'it still exists in some fashion ') not explicit statements; Don't change goal posts now. We have representation for both in modern times. Pashtuns still have slavery on various levels.

Perverted individual .....for showing that injustices exist even when this facade of "nang o namous" Pashtunwali is being preached on soap boxes? No this is only the scapegoat of individuals who can't admit problems amongst themselves and blame the messenger than taking responsibility for the massages. In other words cowards. UnknownPrince and GOE aren't exactly valid measures of the quality of a person, for obvious reasons (examine the explicit comments he makes about people's families)


you're a persistent goal post changer who can't humble the arrogance of Pashtun self righteousness to admit there's failings about Pashtun culture at its core.

[khushal]

your the goal post changer.

1. you have failed to provide pashtun sources as you intitally claimed
2. you failed to provide any evidence at all. your putting up things that provide no evidence, just commentaries. the books reveal nothing. All your sources are disputable that does not back up commentaries with evidence.

What we need is sources that is indisputable. I need sources that explain the economical and social reason why pashtun would be slave owners and had a functioning slave trade like the arabs and europeans had which are undeniable.

I dont need to look at videos of alleged pashtun girls on their dating adventures. we are not debating about that.

[faye]

from what i can gleen, the arabs certainly were not averse to capturing and selling slaves, even after they became muslims.

[khushal]

from what i can gleen, the arabs certainly were not averse to capturing and selling slaves, even after they became muslims.

this is my point. the europeans were neither. the only reason that the europeans obolished it was becasue it was no longer economically feasable. It was economics that killed the slave trade, not the conscience of man.

pashtuns did not have an economical reason nor a social reason to practice slavery just like hunter/gatherers, nomadic or lawless sociaties.

[faye]

the conscience of humanity may have had some input. why you so often just point to the negative?
humanity has a lot of members that evolved past the acceptance of ownership of others.

then.....but not enough.


i just watched an article on the news about the trafficking of slaves to australia. 45 cases found last year and around 24 found so far this year. domestic, sex and labour slaves. shocking!!