Is the Burqa a Arab Pagan Dress?

[IamDZJ]

[kakargirl]

What about the heath issue already referred to?

Enveloping outer garments, such as the burqa, are believed to cause or worsen medical conditions in some individuals.In particular, they contribute to a predisposition for hypovitaminosis D, which can lead to rickets or osteoporosis and may increase the risk of seizures in infants born to affected mothers.
Burqa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dubitsky, Stephanie. "The Health Care Crisis Facing Women Under Taliban Rule in Afghanistan". Washington College of Law. American University. Retrieved 2010-09-15. "Furthermore, the mandatory act of wearing burqas itself causes health risks. They are so heavy and enveloping that they restrict women's activities by making it difficult for them to move. The simple act of walking outside becomes hazardous because the mesh opening severely restricts women's field of vision and they are unable to see their path clearly. In addition, burqas are linked to hearing loss, skin problems, headaches, cardiac disorder, asthma, and also can contribute to mental health problems."

Stuijt, Adriana (2009-05-08). "Women could endanger their health by wearing burqas". Digital Journal. Retrieved 2010-09-15. ""In Ireland, which is experiencing a large influx of muslim immigrants at the moment, women wearing the burqa, doctors are warning, 'are at increased risk of pelvic fractures during childbirth because of vitamin D deficiency due to a lack of sunlight. "And babies born to women with vitamin D deficiency are also more prone to seizures in their first week of life," according to Dr Miriam Casey, expert in Medicine for the Elderly at the Osteoporosis Unit in St James’s hospital in Dublin. The burqa - an all-enveloping outer garment, does not allow enough sunlight through to give women sufficient vitamin D, she warns."

Douglas, David (2007-06-25). "Middle Eastern women may have vitamin D deficiency". Reuters. Retrieved 2010-09-15.

Bandgar, TR; NS Shah. "Vitamin D and Hip Fractures: Indian Scenario". Journal of the Association of Physicians of India 58 (September 2010). Retrieved 2010-09-15. "Social and religious customs that require people to wear concealing clothing, veiling and traditional attire, such as the ‘‘Burqa’’, ‘‘salvar kameez’’ and sari significantly prevents sun exposure.".
Keim, Brandon (2007-06-26). "Could Dressing Conservatively Make Muslim Women Sick?". Wired. Retrieved 2010-09-15.

Well through out i don't know any woman that is suffering as we still get sun ,the women are actually in perfect health so this sort of debunks your theory, actually the only thing i have seen is the women look younger my mother is 60 years old but could easily pass for 38 no wrinkles no nothing perfect health mashallah, blood test are perfect and she wore a burqa all her life, my grandmother died at the age of 101 another burqa wearer very healthy woman ,she still had her teeth at that age.

[kakargirl]

Some english bloke put up on face book , that a exposed woman is a present already open no surprise its already unwrapped ,and a woman in a burqa is a present all wrapped and exciting the curiosity grows , and that frustrates people as the only person that will see her is her husband. lol

[roadrunner]

Some people always wonder the origins of the veil. Is is a Islamic dress or is it a dress used by Arab bediuon Women in Arabia?.

Well, the veilling of women is a Arab pagan dress, Arab pagans dressed their women in burqas way before Islam was ever created.

Take this quate for example:-

Roman African Christian Tertullian, writing in Chapter 17 of The Veiling of Virgins around 200 AD,
praises the modesty of those "pagan women of Arabia" who "not only cover their head, but their whole face...preferring to enjoy
half the light with one eye rather than prostituting their whole face."

Remmeber this was written in 200AD, so supporters and promotors of the Burqa, do not get excited because mankind during that period of time was very much different than now.

So, does this mean Islam has aspects of Arab Paganism? If so, why do Muslims promote this sense of happiness of leaving Paganism, but on one hand still keep hold onto some traditions of Pagans, that being veiling themselves?

Good post. But this is obvious. We all know that Arab Pagans used the face veil to keep the desert sand out. However, even Christian Europe was veiling their women. It was from these Christian Europeans that veiling was introduced into Afghanistan.

To think, Afghan women used to wear traditional dress at one point in time before Pashtun culture was usurped by these foreigners, these immigrants, and people brainwashed into thinking the Burqa is part of Pashtun traditions. The irony is that traditionally it's the Pashtuns that were not backward conservatives in history.

Tradition goes back more than 2 or 3 centuries. Out with the foreign veil, in with the Pashtun traditional dresses.

[Talal]

its a personal choice, flame me all you want guys but the religious debates on PF are among the most stupid ones..and lately that has been reflecting in other debates as well

[roadrunner]

its a personal choice, flame me all you want guys but the religious debates on PF are among the most stupid ones..and lately that has been reflecting in other debates as well

It may well be a personal choice. But that's not the debate here. The debate here is about the Burqa/veil not being a Pashtun tradition. Which it (quite clearly imho) is not.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Baygham

Based on our past exchanges and my understanding of the historical and political/geopolitical/social undercurrents of our world today; what I found is the issues you're concerned about are both an indirect result of how former colonial powers destabilizing your environment and how things function or unable to conform to the new capitalist centered globalized zeitgeist to compensate for the the former.

But then your problem has really little to do with the the mainstream beliefs of the people; but rather how your peoples beliefs are incompatible with the current zeitgeist. If the zeitgeist were say conducive with the peoples beliefs your issues and anxieties would be totally different, if not non exist. Which leads me to the conclusion it's the Zeitgeist that's the culprit not your society.

This however doesn't mean there arent or weren't legitimate issues already there within the society; these issues however are wrongly conflated with the common beliefs. and as a result the remedy for them is wrongly conflated with following the zeitgeist.

People do not intrinsically need large expanses of fiber optic networks; we depend on them because that's a condition we've had imposed on us. We're not backwards because we won't embrace some Cyborg Technocracy; we're backwards because we allow it to dominate over us. Ultimately our liberation comes when we stop thinking in this piece meal fashion of "watan" and start thinking is can we retain our planet as a habitable place to live? Because our inability to thrive in watan, is intrinsically tied to that. We're in this situation because we're focused on the wrong culprit and hence have ignored the real ill.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Good post. But this is obvious. We all know that Arab Pagans used the face veil to keep the desert sand out. However, even Christian Europe was veiling their women. It was from these Christian Europeans that veiling was introduced into Afghanistan.

To think, Afghan women used to wear traditional dress at one point in time before Pashtun culture was usurped by these foreigners, these immigrants, and people brainwashed into thinking the Burqa is part of Pashtun traditions. The irony is that traditionally it's the Pashtuns that were not backward conservatives in history.

Tradition goes back more than 2 or 3 centuries. Out with the foreign veil, in with the Pashtun traditional dresses.

Repeating a fallacy does not make it true when repeated.

even if we take the Tetulian reference as a fact; which is still dubious

the Islamic references nullify the plausibility of it being verifiable.

Ibn Abbas reported: During the pre-Islamic days women circumambulated the Ka'ba nakedly, and said: Who would provide cloth to cover the one who is circumambulating the Ka'ba so that she would cover her private parts? And then she would say: Today will be exposed the whole or the part and what is exposed I shall not make it lawful. It was in this connection that the verse was revealed: "Adorn yourself at every place of worship" (vii. 31). (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 043, Number 7179)"

So clearly veiling was NOT a norm of pre-Islamic Pagan Society.As for Christians it could be that they veiled; but there is enough Evidence from Islamic sources that veiling did not stem visa vis Christians, but it can bve explained as follows.

Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin: When the verse, "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads. Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 32, Number 4090.

So clearly historical documentation shows that the veiling practices came primarily amongst Muslims during the early community of Islam; therefore it would only make sense that veiling for Pashtun Muslims came along with conversion to Islam.

[roadrunner]

1.40 If the wives of a man, or the daughters of a man go out into the street, their heads are to be veiled. The prostitute is not to be veiled. Maidservants are not to veil themselves. Veiled harlots and maidservants shall have their garments seized and 50 blows inflicted on them and bitumen poured on their heads.

The Code of Assura (Assyrian culture, 1000 BC) - Modern day Iraq (an Arab country for those that don't know)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancie...yriancode.html

[roadrunner]

For anyone still unsure, that is pre-Islamic Arabia.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Assyrians arent Arabs, and the fact Iraq Arab now , is of no consequence of what it was then in 1000 BC. To use assyrians as examples of "pre islamic arabia" is as ridiculous as using Africans as examples of Pre-Hellenic Greeks. Iraq isnt even fully Arab, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Kurds, still exist there.

[faye]

you are a classic alchememist. a actually predicted that the bait i put out would most likely be you, that it hauled in. nice one cyril.
well, for starters you didn't get my age correct because you usually don't read and comprehend correctly. you tend to think you have great powers of telepathy or just assume that you know where other peoples heads are at. keep working on those chakras, you are bound to get it up past your navel, sometime.
all those women that are oppressing and controlling countries with their psychological aggression, need to stop. eerrr, which countries are they, alchemist?? i have forgotten. my archaic memory just can't place them right now.
dictators are not called dictators for nothing. they are men, using armies, force, imprisonment, oppression, one way or another, to control.
the other side of the coin i mentioned before, is that women have to stop playing the victim. liberation for women is new. it has not been happening for very long, in historic terms and when people attain a freedom from bondage they can often go to the extreme of overdoing or misunderstanding what is best for their safety.
so, i totally agree that the some aspects of western 'civilisation' and the behaviour of some women there, is out of control and they are self harming, in more ways than one.
i would love to see alcohol used at a bare minimum if not at all.
my own mother was not allowed to read books, her stepmother used to burn them. this was in australia. the women here had the right to vote in the 60s. so women having the same rights as men has not been around all that long.
men using their strengh for survival purposes is not the issue and working with nature rather than subdueing and controlling nature would be a better way. the abuse of the environment is also the same wrong thinking as ownership and abuse of other humans.
so, if i put my gossiping powers into high gear, do you think i could overpower the government?? mmmmm i shall put it to the test and let you know how i make out.

[roadrunner]

The Assyrian example is a very good example of how the veil was pre-Islamic pagan. That the Assyrians lived in Iraq shows just how long the face veil has been there. The pre-Islamic Arabs then used to veil women also as Tertullian points out in the Veiling of the Virgins, Chap 17 as follows:

The pagan women of Arabia, who not only cover their head but their whole face, so that they would rather enjoy half the light with one eye free than prostitute the face, will judge you.

You may notice similarities to the Assyrian culture because they both mandated face veiling:

1.40 If the wives of a man, or the daughters of a man go out into the street, their heads are to be veiled. The prostitute is not to be veiled. Maidservants are not to veil themselves. Veiled harlots and maidservants shall have their garments seized and 50 blows inflicted on them and bitumen poured on their heads.

Case proven

[ScimitarXEdge]

That's a terrible reason; just because the Assyrians did something doesn't mean the Arabs did something or vice versa. The fact that Arabs are in Iraq now, only says Arabs move to Iraq.


As for Pre-Islamic Arab face veiling; already debunked by the these two references. Tetulian's reference is just spurious and brief; the Islamic sources are numerous and detailed.

By weight of evidence; case is disproven. Unless you can explain how it was a norm for Pagan Arab women to run around naked and only start veiling when it was revealed by Muhammad.

Ibn Abbas reported: During the pre-Islamic days women circumambulated the Ka'ba nakedly, and said: Who would provide cloth to cover the one who is circumambulating the Ka'ba so that she would cover her private parts? And then she would say: Today will be exposed the whole or the part and what is exposed I shall not make it lawful. It was in this connection that the verse was revealed: "Adorn yourself at every place of worship" (vii. 31). (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 043, Number 7179)"

Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin: When the verse, "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads. Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 32, Number 4090.

[faye]

when i was researching about the veil and burkha, somewher back around the middle ages or before, it was the prostitutes that had to cover their faces.