Poorest countries are the most religious

[Alchemist]

And they say, "What is this messenger that eats food and walks in the markets? Why was there not sent down to him an angel so he would be with him a warner?
Or [why is not] a treasure presented to him [from heaven], or does he [not] have a garden from which he eats?" And the wrongdoers say, "You follow not but a man affected by magic."
Look how they strike for you comparisons; but they have strayed, so they cannot [find] a way.
Blessed is He who, if He willed, could have made for you [something] better than that - gardens beneath which rivers flow - and could make for you palaces
But they have denied the Hour, and We have prepared for those who deny the Hour a Blaze.
(25:7-12)

[Wrayun]

Well, it has to do with education. People no longer use their own minds, rather repeat like parrots what they have been thought. People are thought not to question, but accept. The irony is that the irreligious are becoming exactly what they accuse the religious lot of, mindless drones.

[ScimitarXEdge]

indeed, but see Toramana's psychology is exactly that of people who blindly follow something, he has only a superficial comprehension of things and only looks things from the level of "apparency" which demonstrates that he lacks a depth of understanding.

He thinks that the solution is emulating what North Americans and Europeans do, but he doesn't want to comprehend the background behind it all. This is exactly the same problem with people who follow traditional forms of religious practice too.


like that old saying, the more things change, the more they stay the same?

What's Toramana's psychological profile any different than say Shamlawar?

[Toramana]

Well, it has to do with education. People no longer use their own minds, rather repeat like parrots what they have been thought. People are thought not to question, but accept. The irony is that the irreligious are becoming exactly what they accuse the religious lot of, mindless drones.

The kettle calling the pot black....The mouth-piece of some of the most irrational, intellectually-retarded, and superstitious societies, where even the slightest skepticism about the truth/validity of religious beliefs or the most trivial inqiury into prevailing superstitions, can land you into the claws of death, are calling others parrots.

Mr Arab-cum-Pashtun, could you tell me, how many fanatic Muslims could listen to or accept scientific criticism of anything related to Islamic theology, beliefs, or history without becoming violent....? Let us try it on this site and question the belief of members here and see how do they react.

Of all the followers of different religions that I have met so far, fanatic Muslims are the most intolerant, closet-minded, violent, and volitile in matters of debates and intellectual inquiry that can shed your blood if you cross pre-imposed limits.

[Wrayun]

Mr Mountain Tajak-cum-Pashtun Yousafzai, the deciding factor here is "fanatic", fanatics whether religious or irreligious, have a hard time tolerating differing perspectives or ideas. For example, the ban on burkas or hijaabs, and the prevailing xenophobia in the West when it comes to Muslims (or blacks, Jews, Hispanics, or Asian immigrants etc.) Fortunately, fanatics are not the majority. Why would fanatics, of any ideology be tolerant of criticism?

Now, if you asked whether Muslims are tolerant of criticism? Absolutely. Constructive criticism is always welcomed, and Muslims participate in it from around the world. However if you mean tolerance towards sacrilege, intentional incitement of stereotypical prejudice, no one can tolerate that. Not even the peace loving Buddhist monks who resorted to stabbing Chinese mercenaries when their temples were invaded and sabotaged. Look up Tibet.

[Toramana]

Hahaha, there is a saying in Pashto that "Kargha ghwal khwri aow da krakai na makhuka sandi" i.e., "crow eats **** but shakes its beak in disgust". Same is the case with SE and Wrayun who live in Western societies but then complain of their immorality and oppression of other people without having the moral courage to return to their hell-hole ant-colonies.

With regard to immorality, different societies have different moral standards. Just like a Muslim considers it very moral to cage his wife as a sex object with status not much better than an animal, in Western morality as well, any individual irrespective of gender reaching adulthood is considered fully capable to make his/her own decisions and do whatever he or she likes to as long as the wider society is not affected.

This is the rational definition of morality/ethics i.e. as long as other human beings are not harmed, an adult can do whatever he/she wants to. So, the concept of morality is relative depending on how different societies culturally evolved...The universal concept is, a person irrespective of gender that has the adulthood age has the full rational capacity to make his/her own decisions and has rights equal to others.

Now which concept of morality has worked ...One can judge welll looking at the widespread human rights violation (including women rights), oppression, intellectual retardness, non-productivilty, political authoritarianism, etc. in Muslim societies. Compare this to the creativity, productivity, freedom of thought and expression, etc. of an individual(whether a man or a woman) in the West (and many parts of the non-Muslim world as well) and that gives you an idea of which concept of morality has worked and which belongs to the stone age having failed a large-chunk of humanity.

[شمله ور خراساني]

wealthy countries have the highest rates of depression, anxiety, suicides etc.

[Toramana]

Now coming to the relationship between progress and productivity, one can guess well what is it that is keeping Muslim societies retarded and therefore non-productive, consumarist societies ever dependent on the developed world to feed their hungry populations. In a rational society, when a natural calamatiy happens, scientists sit and try to find out what is the cause....Ultimately, they come out with a solution or explanation which may not be perfect but which works....

Now what happens in the VERY MORAL Muslim world....If someting e.g., an earthquake, etc. happens, religious leaders (ulema-i-kiram) declare it the wrath of God...In fact, most of the Muslims are fatalistic believing things are pre-determinded and so unchangeable and that humans have no power to change them...

Consequently, what happens is, non-Muslims have better models, solutions, strategies, and technologies while the Muslim world lives in a static world of delusions....

I know in a number of universities, research is going on as how to produce certain material presently prepared from patrolium from organic substances and they have had a huge success....

This attitude definitely leads to better and more prosperous lives.

[Wrayun]

^Da Pukhto yuw bal matal da che: Lugay ba shee, kho bal ba nashee!


With all your fallacious and ad hominem arguments, you still couldn't validate your initial point i.e. religiosity is responsible for the poor states of certain nations. On the other hand we have provided you alternative, validated arguments as to why certain nations, in fact majority of the world, is suffering in an economic bondage. You still insist to keep your head in the sand, your choice.

On the real, I appreciate my Western sanctuary and upbringing. Without it I would have never gotten to see the real picture. Here in the West, I'm not the only one, who thinks or defends the neglected masses around the world from certain geo-political powers and their monopoly. The vast majority of the critics are Westerners, those with conscious, that bring these dirty facts to the surface. They realize and know that we can no longer carry on this path.

You on the other hand, you are like the fish in the pond mesmerized by the shiny little thing attracting it to bite. Little do you know that it's a hook on a bait. Or maybe you just don't care, as long as you can savor the moment. Yummy!

[Toramana]

There in interesting story about economic development in Muslim countries...It goes like this that a Muslim country hired the services of a non-Muslim economist to help formulate its economic policy. The poor guy worked enthusiastically for a few months but then suddenly resigned. Someone asked him why this sudden resignation! He said, "I cannot help a people who believe real life begins after death".

Those who believe this world is unimportant and real life is in the hereafter cannot make a first-rank society in terms of scientific, intellectual, and technological output...in terms of improvement in the lives of the masses...in terms of political, economic, and technological power and influence,....

Saudi-Arabia and some of the other camel Kingdoms produce mainly one type of goods and services i.e., oil, which is a depletable, exhaustible natural resource....

True GDP is not indicative of real development but there are other indicators e.g. HDI (Human Development Index). Look into the links below.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/trends/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_GDP_(nominal)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita

[Toramana]

Concluiosn: More rational societies progress whereas societies immersed in superstition are left behind....

Not all Western countries colonized....and there are countries that were colonized nevertheless they are first rank societies now in terms of economic productivity, technology, etc.

[ScimitarXEdge]

The kettle calling the pot black....The mouth-piece of some of the most irrational, intellectually-retarded, and superstitious societies, where even the slightest skepticism about the truth/validity of religious beliefs or the most trivial inqiury into prevailing superstitions, can land you into the claws of death, are calling others parrots.

Mr Arab-cum-Pashtun, could you tell me, how many fanatic Muslims could listen to or accept scientific criticism of anything related to Islamic theology, beliefs, or history without becoming violent....? Let us try it on this site and question the belief of members here and see how do they react.

Of all the followers of different religions that I have met so far, fanatic Muslims are the most intolerant, closet-minded, violent, and volitile in matters of debates and intellectual inquiry that can shed your blood if you cross pre-imposed limits.

Did you notice that in your entire post you had not made a single attempt to make a logical and relevant response to of Wrayun's positions

how is that any different than what you accuse Wrayum or even myself of?

Persistently I see you disregard the standards of logic; and you do so regardless of whether it's been pointed out to you. As if you think that you're automatically right no matter how intrinsically flawed your position is. The irony is that you posture yourself as someone who champions science and rational thinking; yet you don't employ the lessons of science and rational thinking and that is ...thinking rationally.

How many Rational Thinkers will discredit someone's argument on perceived ethnic relationships?!?!

Which rationalist uses personal smear and slander to rebut an opponent's ideas?

If you believe that the most intolerant people are Muslim fanatics, you haven't stepped outside of your Internet Cafe in Mumbai to witness reality.

You forget that all the society's you adore and praise and "give credit where credit is due" exterminated people to acquire their current status of "super power". Now if you think that they're tolerant now because of a more enlightened state of consciousness you are mistaken; it has less to do with tolerance and more to do with lacking any meaningful set of standards to maintain their own heritage. If Muslims do , it's not intolerance, it's just wisdom and keen observation of what happens when you let go of a central societally binding theme.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Concluiosn: More rational societies progress whereas societies immersed in superstition are left behind....

Not all Western countries colonized....and there are countries that were colonized nevertheless they are first rank societies now in terms of economic productivity, technology, etc.

then why are the big Super Powers all crumbling apart as we speak?

which countries were colonized that are now first rank in terms of economic productivity, technology?

and who's standard of economic productivity of technology are we following?

[ScimitarXEdge]

There in interesting story about economic development in Muslim countries...It goes like this that a Muslim country hired the services of a non-Muslim economist to help formulate its economic policy. The poor guy worked enthusiastically for a few months but then suddenly resigned. Someone asked him why this sudden resignation! He said, "I cannot help a people who believe real life begins after death".

Those who believe this world is unimportant and real life is in the hereafter cannot make a first-rank society in terms of scientific, intellectual, and technological output...in terms of improvement in the lives of the masses...in terms of political, economic, and technological power and influence,....

Saudi-Arabia and some of the other camel Kingdoms produce mainly one type of goods and services i.e., oil, which is a depletable, exhaustible natural resource....

True GDP is not indicative of real development but there are other indicators e.g. HDI (Human Development Index). Look into the links below.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/trends/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_GDP_(nominal)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...PP)_per_capita

This isn't ""proof" of anything except an opinion.

explain to me why Turkey which is 97% non secular has a GDP greater than All of Infidel Eastern Europe

now I don't believe GDP indicates much at all; and it's a Imperialistically Imposed Standard; but since this is the standard YOU embrace

explain why that is?

[Toramana]

^Da Pukhto yuw bal matal da che: Lugay ba shee, kho bal ba nashee!


With all your fallacious and ad hominem arguments, you still couldn't validate your initial point i.e. religiosity is responsible for the poor states of certain nations. On the other hand we have provided you alternative, validated arguments as to why certain nations, in fact majority of the world, is suffering in an economic bondage. You still insist to keep your head in the sand, your choice.

On the real, I appreciate my Western sanctuary and upbringing. Without it I would have never gotten to see the real picture. Here in the West, I'm not the only one, who thinks or defends the neglected masses around the world from certain geo-political powers and their monopoly. The vast majority of the critics are Westerners, those with conscious, that bring these dirty facts to the surface. They realize and know that we can no longer carry on this path.

You on the other hand, you are like the fish in the pond mesmerized by the shiny little thing attracting it to bite. Little do you know that it's a hook on a bait. Or maybe you just don't care, as long as you can savor the moment. Yummy!

No one said ....the distribution of wealth/power in the world is based on justice...but saying that all that the developed countries have is based on brutal exploitation is not true...(What about China, India, many countries in the far east and Europe),....and is only indicative of jealousy-sticken, reactionary, victim-hood-driven mindsets...

To be respected and reckoned for, you've to strive hard...International competition is tough and only stronger survive....World would go ahead entering into post post-modern age colonising the space but if you want to return to the prestine age of medievalism, that is your choice....

You people are exploiting the raw religious emotions of youth here...that is not good....