Poorest countries are the most religious

[ScimitarXEdge]

Now coming to the relationship between progress and productivity, one can guess well what is it that is keeping Muslim societies retarded and therefore non-productive, consumarist societies ever dependent on the developed world to feed their hungry populations. In a rational society, when a natural calamatiy happens, scientists sit and try to find out what is the cause....Ultimately, they come out with a solution or explanation which may not be perfect but which works....

Now what happens in the VERY MORAL Muslim world....If someting e.g., an earthquake, etc. happens, religious leaders (ulema-i-kiram) declare it the wrath of God...In fact, most of the Muslims are fatalistic believing things are pre-determinded and so unchangeable and that humans have no power to change them...

Consequently, what happens is, non-Muslims have better models, solutions, strategies, and technologies while the Muslim world lives in a static world of delusions....

I know in a number of universities, research is going on as how to produce certain material presently prepared from patrolium from organic substances and they have had a huge success....

This attitude definitely leads to better and more prosperous lives.

Ok Speaking as someone who works in the Environmental Field; tell me what's the solution that Scientists have proposed for replacing the Carbon Sink that our Earth had naturally developed over Eons of Geological Evolution?

If your argument is Biodiesel, a project which I did an undergad laboratory analysis on; then you are over stating it's proclivity. Plant based (you're so scientifically illiterate you call it "organic" ...well moron, even petroleum is ORGANIC ..organic refers to carbon based compounds...not the common usage for nonsynthetic horticultural techniques). Biodiesal is renewable, but it's not "better" for the environment since it still puts excess energy and greenhouse gases into a system which has no sink for retribution. The result is it still causes acidfication of Oceans since aquatic life above photic zones fixate Carbon into compounds which become acids.

The answer is there is none; and this condition is brought on by the so called "rationalist societies";

Your portrayal of the Muslim world or the Third world in general as "consumerist" is inaccurate; More than 80 % of all resources are consumed by the "Rationalist Societies" most other societies consume only minimally, and this too is in turn due to imposed dependency on resource consuming facilities to be able to operate in trade systems also imposed by capitalist hegemonic order.

The fact is it's the So-Called (not genuine) Rationalist Societies who have engendered a globally dangerous condition; I emphasize Globally, because their actions do not just negatively impact them, but the whole world itself. This is a calamity unto itself and it is a product of the "models" that you seem to praise and idealize.


These lampoons of "Ulema-i-Akram" which may have a certain degree of validity; in this context are grossly red herrings and irrelevant ridicule not actual cogent assessment of the situation.

[Toramana]

Did you notice that in your entire post you had not made a single attempt to make a logical and relevant response to of Wrayun's positions
how is that any different than what you accuse Wrayum or even myself of?

Persistently I see you disregard the standards of logic; and you do so regardless of whether it's been pointed out to you. As if you think that you're automatically right no matter how intrinsically flawed your position is. The irony is that you posture yourself as someone who champions science and rational thinking; yet you don't employ the lessons of science and rational thinking and that is ...thinking rationally.

How many Rational Thinkers will discredit someone's argument on perceived ethnic relationships?!?!

Which rationalist uses personal smear and slander to rebut an opponent's ideas?

If you believe that the most intolerant people are Muslim fanatics, you haven't stepped outside of your Internet Cafe in Mumbai to witness reality.

You forget that all the society's you adore and praise and "give credit where credit is due" exterminated people to acquire their current status of "super power". Now if you think that they're tolerant now because of a more enlightened state of consciousness you are mistaken; it has less to do with tolerance and more to do with lacking any meaningful set of standards to maintain their own heritage. If Muslims do , it's not intolerance, it's just wisdom and keen observation of what happens when you let go of a central societally binding theme.

My argument is precisely as follows,

"because developed societies believe in the rational/scientific interpretation of things including natural and social phenomena and have a cause-and-effect model of link between events (both in time and space), the world for them is not fixed. The members of such societies tend to be more skeptical and receptive to ideas and by that argument more tolerant.

Religious societies, in particular Muslim societies, rely on divine explanation of things (i.e. every thing is caused by Allah and so is pre-determined e.g., if a land yields less produce, that is the will of God and there is nothing that can be done about that), so the world is fixed and static for them (things occur as pre-determined by God). If the things are fixed for you, you can do nothing about them. In this model, there is only one explanation of the world and alternative explanations are untrue and a heresy i.e., against the divine truth...That is why the most religious people are the least receptive to new ideas. Muslim religuos leaders are an example who oppose science and objective knowledge first but only accept it when it becomes the prevailing explanation/truth."

Based on the above, runs my argument regarding development and dogmatism.

"If you don't accept new/alternative ideas and if for you things are pre-determined/pre-destined, you cannot find better expalantions and solutions. For example, if Newtonian mechanics had been accepted as the ultimate and final truth, quantum mechanics would never have been discovered. Now, for certain phenomena to understand and explain (and to handle), you must think deeply, thoroughly, and elaborately beyond the barriers imposed by dogma and divine-based explanations...For example, consider evolution....There are many artificial systems and useful/practical technologies based on Evolutionary Theory....If there were a bar on this, these technologies would never have been invented....What about cloning, Genetic Engineering, etc.....Those societies that allow this kind of free thinking develop better models/systems for resource management and acquisition...and become more affluent/powerful."

Regarding progress and colonialism, I have the following submission.

"Colonialism alone is not sufficient to gain a technological edge over others. Colonialism itself requires that the coloniser society first becomes better organized and develop a higher political-social formation to over-power others. Moreover, to sustain the supremacy, a society must strive to be continually creative....That is, I mean not all progress is brought by colonialism e.g. what about China, India, Japan, Koreas, Norway, Germany, etc...Those societies that produce more in terms of goods and services are more powerful. Those societies that have more productive capacities tend to be more affluent."

Regarding Western or Arab imperialism,

"Societies that acquire dis-proportionate power tend to be imperial...No society that has been imperial is imune to oppressing others whether Arabs or Westerners or Pashtuns....Arabs are not having super-natural morality having ruled a large part of the world for almost nine centuries but not having committed any crime or any brutality against others....No nation has to apologise for the colonialism that it did in the past...that was how the world was...If not Arab, any other group would have dominated the world....So, every nation should try to acquire the required level of power as not to be dominated..."

Regarding moral stadards,

"Western societies think that once an indivdual attains adulthood, he/she is rational and wise enough to make his/her own decisions ...and that is, it is immoral to limit the freedom of someone if he/she is able to use his /her rational ability in a right/proper way as not to impinge on the rights of others...In Muslim morality on the other hand, a woman doesn't have the required intellect to keep the integrity of her character...and is prone to sin....Therefore, she must not be allowed freedom beyond certain limits....In my opinion, the former model has resulted in a better life for women....Moreover, in my opinion moral standards are relative varying from society to society...and one should choose a set of standrads based on reason."

Hope this is clear enough and satisfies you.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Hahaha, there is a saying in Pashto that "Kargha ghwal khwri aow da krakai na makhuka sandi" i.e., "crow eats **** but shakes its beak in disgust". Same is the case with SE and Wrayun who live in Western societies but then complain of their immorality and oppression of other people without having the moral courage to return to their hell-hole ant-colonies.

With regard to immorality, different societies have different moral standards. Just like a Muslim considers it very moral to cage his wife as a sex object with status not much better than an animal, in Western morality as well, any individual irrespective of gender reaching adulthood is considered fully capable to make his/her own decisions and do whatever he or she likes to as long as the wider society is not affected.

This is the rational definition of morality/ethics i.e. as long as other human beings are not harmed, an adult can do whatever he/she wants to. So, the concept of morality is relative depending on how different societies culturally evolved...The universal concept is, a person irrespective of gender that has the adulthood age has the full rational capacity to make his/her own decisions and has rights equal to others.

Now which concept of morality has worked ...One can judge welll looking at the widespread human rights violation (including women rights), oppression, intellectual retardness, non-productivilty, political authoritarianism, etc. in Muslim societies. Compare this to the creativity, productivity, freedom of thought and expression, etc. of an individual(whether a man or a woman) in the West (and many parts of the non-Muslim world as well) and that gives you an idea of which concept of morality has worked and which belongs to the stone age having failed a large-chunk of humanity.

That's exactly why your assessment nor is the assessment of these societies Logically Valid or Rational at all despite you labeling them "Rational Societies"

Most of us ,including yourself are here because they're enforced these corrupt institutions to make others dependent on their facilities, this due to their institutions interfering with the Natural equilibriums of global ecosystems/environment. our presence here is intrinsically a result of their corruption. So inventing this false dichotomy of us living here despite it's immorality, doesn't change the point.

It's a cliched and logically false counter argument; it doesn't examine nuanced factors in what caused migration. It's merely an example of how you only look at everything superficially rather than developing a refined and accurate depth of understanding.


This idea that a person/persons can do as they please long their actions does not apparently harm anyone else is really a mask for the typical Juvenille Banner "It's my life and I can do whatever I want"; this is a shallow assessment of morality which is the exact opposite of rational. Firstly because it lacks any assessment of what harm is and second it doesn't comprehend the anthropological basis of moral systems in society and why morality exists in the first place, and third related to the second it lacks a depth of understanding of what levels of harm actually exist. In truth all morally wrong actions including self harm are harmful to society as a whole.

This is also similar to the claim that morality is relative; which becomes logically regressive when you take inductive reasoning; and say "Everything moral is Relative, but Everything is an Absolute, therefore everything cannot be relative". It loses logical coherence and thus cannot be rational.

Similarly it's a shallow assessment that Muslims somehow "cage their wives" as "sex objects" firstly because it assumes it's a social norm to "cage their wives"; that Islam somehow advocates it, and that it's morally acceptable to a Muslim to actually "cage a wife"; it also assumes that Islam a Muslim wife is a sex object; this is flawed reasoning for numerous cases. Firstly it misrepresents the meaning of Sexual Objectification; which is physical exploitation to the detriment of one or more party, this can only happen when sex is used outside of it's natural context as what is healthful and detrimental how it facilitates or hinders the proper functioning of our faculties. Secondly, Islam's restrictions on sexual behavior contradict sexual objectification since it limits it only within certain contexts which are conducive for the fulfillment of those faculties.

On the contrary; Western culture uses women's bodies as a form of public amusement, Modeling, Pornography, Open acceptance of prostitution, which are all destructive and dysfunctional modes of behavior; this is physical exploitation and thus sexual objectivification. In reality such women are being raped since they've been psychologically degraded and abused to accept such a treatment; such western society in fact engages in rape of women.

This is is how Rational Thinking ratifies and assesses morality not based on perception or relative modes of belief; but by fundamental requirements of human faculties and how a behavior exploits, detriments or hinders our intrinsic drives or faculties.

That's how Islam and it's standards are moral and the Farangay ones are immoral.

[Toramana]

It is unfortunate that you people are stocking the raw religious emotion of youngsters here. I think you are pushing Muslims in the West into further isolation by making these youngsters to be more extremist. You are making them more irrational, prone to committing unlawful acts, and so are making the broader Muslim community in the West and around the world more apologetic.

I think Islam has better chance of growth and expansion if Muslims focus on their productive skills. These youngsters need to be highly qualified professional. Jewish model is before our eyes ... a tiny community but is shaking the world by dent of its resourcefulness and skills.

[شمله ور خراساني]

the word "rational" is like a hooker. Everybody takes advantage of it when desperate.

[Toramana]

the word "rational" is like a hooker. Everybody takes advantage of it when desperate.

How my Uzbakistani friend?

[شمله ور خراساني]

How my Uzbakistani friend?

Very simple, Paki!!!

You have no way of convincing people of what you say just like 50 year old divorced alcoholic man with a big fat belly and ugly face cannot get a young girl to spend the night with him without any payment.

So you through around the word "rational" in order to make a poor attempt at achieving what you like to achieve. Just like old fat divorced alcoholic men visit brothels.

[Toramana]

Very simple, Paki!!!

You have no way of convincing people of what you say just like 50 year old divorced alcoholic man with a big fat belly and ugly face cannot get a young girl to spend the night with him without any payment.

So you through around the word "rational" in order to make a poor attempt at achieving what you like to achieve. Just like old fat divorced alcoholic men visit brothels.

It seems you have ample experience of this brothal business...I know most of the Mullahs are usually sex-obcessed...but that is not my cup of tea...am more interested in books....My concern is not to convince but to say my point...What about Maiwand...?

[Baygham]

Very simple, Paki!!!

You have no way of convincing people of what you say just like 50 year old divorced alcoholic man with a big fat belly and ugly face cannot get a young girl to spend the night with him without any payment.

So you through around the word "rational" in order to make a poor attempt at achieving what you like to achieve. Just like old fat divorced alcoholic men visit brothels.

who is the fat 50+ year old with the young girl? Did I miss another 'sahih bukhari' account of a holy marriage.

Kindly post in the relavent thread, that ayesha thread is not this one.

[ScimitarXEdge]

My argument is precisely as follows,

"because developed societies believe in the rational/scientific interpretation of things including natural and social phenomena and have a cause-and-effect model of link between events (both in time and space), the world for them is not fixed. The members of such societies tend to be more skeptical and receptive to ideas and by that argument more tolerant.

Religious societies, in particular Muslim, rely on divine explanation (i.e. every thing is caused by Allah and so is pre-determined e.g., if a land yields less produce, that is the doing of God and humans can do nothing about that), so the world is fixed and static for them (things occur as predetermined by God). If the things are fixed for you, you can do nothing about them. There is only one explanation of the world and alternative explanation is a heresy, untrue, and against the divine truth...That is why the most religious people are the least receptive to new ideas. Muslim religuos leaders are an example who oppose science and objective knowledge but only accept when it becomes the prevailing explanation."

Based on the above, my argument runs regarding development and dogmatism runs below.

"If you don't accept new/alternative ideas and if for you things are pre-determined/pre-destined, you cannot find better expalantions and solutions. For example, if Newtonian mechanics had been accepted as the ultimate and final truth, quantum mechanics would never have been discovered. For certain phenomena to understand and explain, you must think deeply, thoroughly, and elaborately beyond the barriers imposed by dogma and divine-based explanation of things...For example, consider evolution....There are many artificial systems and practical technologies based on Evolutionary Theory....If there were a bar on this, these technologies would never have been invented....What about cloning, Genetic Engineering, etc.....Those societies that allow this develop better models/systems for resource management and acquisition."

Regarding progress and colonialism, I have the following submission.

"Colonialism alone is not sufficient to gain a technological edge over others. Colonialism itself requires that the coloniser society first become better organized and develop a higher political-social formation to over-power others. Moreover, to sustain the supremacy, a society must strive to be continually creative....i.e., not all progress is brought by colonialism e.g. what about China, India, Japan, Koreas, Norway, Germany, etc...Those societies that produce more in terms of goods and services are more powerful."

Regarding Western or Arab imperialism,

"Societies that acquire dis-proportionate power tend to be imperial...No society that has been imperial is imune to oppressing others whether Arabs or Westerners....Arabs are not having super-natural morality having ruled a large part of the world for almost nine centuries but not having committed any crime ....No one has to apologise for that...that was how the world was...If not Arab, any other group would have dominated the world....So, every nation should try to acquire the required level of power as not to be dominated..."

Regarding moral stadards,

"Western societies that once an indivdual attain adulthood, he is rational and wise enough to make his/her own decisions ...and that is, it is immoral to limit the freedom of someone to use his rational ability in a right/proper way as not to impinge on the rights of others...In Muslim morality on the other hand, a woman doesn't have the required intellect to keep the integrity of her character...and is prone to sin....Therefore, she must not be allowed freedom beyond certain limits....In my opinion, the former model has resulted in a better life for women."

This is a flawed premise; Just because they Use the words "Rationality and Progress" doesn't mean that their views are rational or progressive, That's a very shallow assessment.

You're looking at things only cosmetically. And also with circular reasoning; you argued this same point before actually. You failed to address on what criteria is Material Exploitation the Standard of Progress is intrinsically valid. As we can see the ecologically detrimental impact of such modes is having globally negative impacts so by this token it becomes that materialistic measures are valid standards of progress or rationality. Hence the modus operandi of Materialistically inclined societies is more dogmatic than what's perceived in religiously based societies.

Your assessment on religious societies are untrue as well; if you read Ibn Haytham's work.

Ibn al Haytham - The First Scientist - Alhazen - Ibn al Haitham - Biography - Bradley Steffens

He is credited as the person who developed the scientific method

he states "I constantly sought knowledge and truth, and it became my belief that for gaining access to the effulgence and closeness to God, there is no better way than that of searching for truth and knowledge"

he is a product of religious society; so this again demonstrates the LOGICAL FALLACY, of correlating religiosity as the cause of intellectual and social weakness.

As for Colonialism and Progress; while it's true that merely colonizing does not make one more powerful; but also it brings to the table what does colonizing entail; it entails exploitation to the detriment of the other group/society; it was exploitation that brought the one to over power another, It's agreed that Political and Social unity and cooperation helped them do it; which is exactly why Many of us Advocate Muslim Unity, which you seem so vehemently against despite the fact at how detrimental it is for all Muslims.

The explanation for your question "What about Norway,China, India Japan Korea" can be found in Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilization thesis. After World War I and II they created a pact which would give direct partnership and socioeconomic cooperation of Western Europe. This was to ensure the Hegemonic Hierarchy of European Societies. Hence Norway and Post War Germany were able to prosper and make a comeback. Norway is actually not very powerful, because their population is too minute, Germany is powerful because of large amasses of imperial wealth, left over.

China and India are only appear economically viable because they have such massive populations and therefore a massive labor force; but this is all exploitative. Most chinese live in squalor, and have little to no access to medical care. India has the largest illiterate population on Earth; so basically it's all based on grunt labor.

India has the largest number of illiterates
In 2001, the total number of illiterates came down to 304.11 million from 328.88 million in 1991

Kuwait, Qatar, Palestinian Authority, Indonesia, Iran, Syria all have higher literacy rates than India. even Saudi Arabia has 85% literacy

Now China is very highly literate; but they're mainly poor peasants with a well off upper class who run the government, most of these peasants are essentially slave labor in factories and textiles.

So really it's by exploiting large masses of people this facade of economic progress can be maintained; but that's also why the West maintains economic hierarchy as well; they have imposed on the world a Materialistic Centered mode of economic well being, and this depends mainly on exploiting the land, labor, resources of other societies.

The idea of Arab Imperialism vs. Western is a total fabrication; in fact your OWN source which you tried to use to Highlight the gross Injustices and Extravagances of The Ummayads actually DISPROVES the theory of Arab IMperialism; by demonstrating that Arabs themselves rose against the corrupt Arabs (Ummayad rulers) and deposed their attempt at opposing an ethnocentric hegemony; and then offered partnership with the Non-Arab Muslims. Rather than create detriment

This is an important point to make because it was the exploitative aspects which is what made European Imperialism actually Imperialism and the spread of Islam with the Arabs not Imperialism; no matter how hard individuals who are essentially lackeys to Europeans try to justify their subservience by reassessing history out of context. And that's the point that needs to be addressed. Having the power not to be dominated is not by trying to conform to some standard manufactured by an Imperial Power Structure; but to liberate ourselves from this Fabric not because we're afraid of being dominated and need to dominate; but because they interfere with Natural Currents of human relationships with our planet. If we want to avoid being dominated it's not by merely saying "that's the way the world is"; but by changing their fabric of the world. So our future people don't have to worry this.

As for your idea of moral looseness this is a smokescreen for lacking any High Degree of Moral standards

this is my reply to that

"This idea that a person/persons can do as they please long their actions does not apparently harm anyone else is really a mask for the typical Juvenille Banner "It's my life and I can do whatever I want"; this is a shallow assessment of morality which is the exact opposite of rational. Firstly because it lacks any assessment of what harm is and second it doesn't comprehend the anthropological basis of moral systems in society and why morality exists in the first place, and third related to the second it lacks a depth of understanding of what levels of harm actually exist. In truth all morally wrong actions including self harm are harmful to society as a whole."

[Baygham]

It seems you have ample experience of this brothal business...I know most of the Mullahs are usually sex-obcessed...but that is not my cup of tea...am more interested in books....My concern is not to convince but to say my point...What about Maiwand...?

Dear Toramana,

Why are you even trying to engage with our second and plus generation lost pashtoons, They have their unique identity issues, which are better served with a pan islamic balm. Let them go. Let uncle sam deal with them, munga bi sar sala khoogaw. Hees nashi koolay, as far as the watan is concerned they are essentially nutured. They can maximum join a al shahab and when they reach on ground, someone will use them as a mule or a bitch. In both cases it will be a wake up call.

Pashtoons in watan (and the vast majority of pashtoons in the world) have their own demons, much more different than those of the expat new generation.

You and i here in the comforts of west, with memories of those demons from being born and raised in them but no longer actively engulfed by these demon have our unique needs.

This islamic newer generation (foriegn born) is essentially lost, let them go. There are millions in watan, way too eager to see and fight the demons these guys worship. Reserve your energy for those.

[ScimitarXEdge]

It is unfortunate that you people are stocking the raw religious emotion of youngsters here. I think you are pushing Muslims in the West into further isolation by making these youngsters to be more extremist. You are making them more irrational, prone to committing unlawful acts, and so are making the broader Muslim community in the West and around the world more apologetic.

I think Islam has better chance of growth and expansion if Muslims focus on their productive skills. These youngsters need to be highly qualified professional. Jewish model is before our eyes ... a tiny community but is shaking the world by dent of its resourcefulness and skills.

But see but we're not; we're not merely shouting slogans and making emotionalized speeches; we're giving ANALYTICAL justifications for why the Islamic Way is in fact the better way, not because of tradition or because some Mullah says so, but because it stands the test of scrutiny.

Some of us used to think JUST LIKE YOU, Toramana, but after going into deep analysis we found that our gripes with our heritage was because of some distorted cultural representations that Western educational system was trying to impose on us based on their flawed theories rather than actual Logical and Rational justifications.

We're not arguing against Muslims developing their skills; In fact I highly advocate it; I didn't attend university nor am I working for my Masters Degree because I'm trying to show off, there's a purpose behind it. However, when I I advocate skill development; they're on in a certain context which is relevant to a greater issue, I believe in their right direction and for the right reasons.; not towards trying to copy a corrupt society's idea of progress; The right direction for Muslims should be for abolishing this corrupt institution entirely from the ground up.

So If anything it's YOU who are seeking to keeping Muslims more subservient, pacified and domicile psychologically and more willing to be compliant to a corrupt hegemony and being exploited, rather than liberating themselves and more over the ENTIRE PLANET See what I said there? The ENTIRE PLANET.


we need to stop being so "me me me me" centric It's not just about us, it's about Justice vs, Corruption everywhere, I repeat EVERYWHERE!!! Not even the animals or Trees should experience injustice.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Dear Toramana,

Why are you even trying to engage with our second and plus generation lost pashtoons, They have their unique identity issues, which are better served with a pan islamic balm. Let them go. Let uncle sam deal with them, munga bi sar sala khoogaw. Hees nashi koolay, as far as the watan is concerned they are essentially nutured. They can maximum join a al shahab and when they reach on ground, someone will use them as a mule or a bitch. In both cases it will be a wake up call.

Pashtoons in watan (and the vast majority of pashtoons in the world) have their own demons, much more different than those of the expat new generation.

You and i here in the comforts of west, with memories of those demons from being born and raised in them but no longer actively engulfed by these demon have our unique needs.

This islamic newer generation (foriegn born) is essentially lost, let them go. There are millions in watan, way too eager to see and fight the demons these guys worship. Reserve your energy for those.

That's just a scapegoat to avoid the reality of the issue and avoiding the challenge to the Logic Merits of your psychological and intellectual subservience.

The issues we face here and what people in "watan" face are intrinsically connected; If these issues didnt occur none of us would be out of the Watan, and likewise the Watan wouldn't be experiencing what it is.

But that again is a problem in the narrow minded and shallow understanding you have; we're not focused on the Watan, the Watan is not enough, the condition the world is matters to us.

And in that this issue of identity is merely a projection of your own feeling of inferiority and why you feel you must be subservient to them and cow tow them. For us we're above these childish and shallow considerations. For us it's not an issue of identity but Liberation; for you it's an issue of feelings of over compensating for inadequacy in your own words "to have what they have" , because you dont feel on their level due to internalizing their standards on yourself. Alhamdulilah I'm free of this anxiety; and can rest easily at night, can't the same about you.

[Toramana]

Dear Toramana,

Why are you even trying to engage with our second and plus generation lost pashtoons, They have their unique identity issues, which are better served with a pan islamic balm. Let them go. Let uncle sam deal with them, munga bi sar sala khoogaw. Hees nashi koolay, as far as the watan is concerned they are essentially nutured. They can maximum join a al shahab and when they reach on ground, someone will use them as a mule or a bitch. In both cases it will be a wake up call.

Pashtoons in watan (and the vast majority of pashtoons in the world) have their own demons, much more different than those of the expat new generation.

You and i here in the comforts of west, with memories of those demons from being born and raised in them but no longer actively engulfed by these demon have our unique needs.

This islamic newer generation (foriegn born) is essentially lost, let them go. There are millions in watan, way too eager to see and fight the demons these guys worship. Reserve your energy for those.

Bacha you are right that the generation back home is interestingly more pragmatic/practical and intrested in how to transform their lives...I regret why am I wasting my time here... It is better watching a nice documentary on Youtube....

[Baygham]

That's just a scapegoat to avoid the reality of the issue and avoiding the challenge to the Logic Merits of your psychological and intellectual subservience.

The issues we face here and what people in "watan" face are intrinsically connected; If these issues didnt occur none of us would be out of the Watan, and likewise the Watan wouldn't be experiencing what it is.

But that again is a problem in the narrow minded and shallow understanding you have; we're not focused on the Watan, the Watan is not enough, the condition the world is matters to us.

And in that this issue of identity is merely a projection of your own feeling of inferiority and why you feel you must be subservient to them and cow tow them. For us we're above these childish and shallow considerations. For us it's not an issue of identity but Liberation; for you it's an issue of feelings of over compensating for inadequacy in your own words "to have what they have" , because you dont feel on their level due to internalizing their standards on yourself. Alhamdulilah I'm free of this anxiety; and can rest easily at night, can't the same about you.

I already told you, go to akhora khattak madrassa, parts of it are even air conditioned. Me and toramana will place a wager on whether it will be 'mule' or a 'bitch' outcome. Rest assured one of the two it will be. With that habash connection I would place my 1 dollar on the mule, dont know about T, he may go against me and see something in a 'B' potential.

Peera, your identity short commings( a unique second generation ex pat phenomenon), and disillusionment with your place of existence is about as remote from the travials of the average joe in watan, as you are. Your influence about as much as that of a stray cat in watan.