Mutazilah its pashtoon relevence by ScimitarXEdge

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I hope that this shows my wrorryaan Baygham and Toramana that your strategy is testable in this simulation lab here at PF. Remove the stimulus for radicalization and eliminate interventionalism and the Pashtuns will regulate their own. Even as they (the secular nationalists) stepped out of the thread and did not poke or prod, meaning they allowed the natural tendencies of the people to manifest, twas not Matuzalite against sunni against shiite against Wrayun against Admin Khan against me against Rudolph etc.... rather an individual that they view as representing the views that they are staunchly against became the focus of autocorrection.

Now expand that to a grand scale... 30,000 fighters estimated (probably 10% are rendered in the no comprimise category) against millions of people that want a middle ground approach.

[unknownprince]

Both of you are in reality not the representatives authentic Islam.

Because both of you conform to the Kaafirs and their norms and standards. This is why every kafir, murtad, zindiq and apostate can see the clear distinction.


I am not the one who is being used. It is you two conformists who are insecure and unable to enter Islam fully. Becauseyou feel inferior to the standards and philosophy of the kufaar and you succumb to the demands of the kufaar. You feel you need to adjust Islam to conform to certain requirements in order to make it digestible for a kaafir brain.

You work the other way around. It is the kaafirs brain that needs to adjust itself to Islam.

I pity both of you. Because you feel you have to distantiate yourself from me in order to gain credibility with the kufaar.

THe kafirs of this forum must be having a laugh.

I think Sangar has a good point here. I do get the feeling that some people try to adjust Islam to fit in with their surroundings. This is a very dangerous precedent to set because then things can continue to spiral out of control both culturally and religiously.

It's like those Muslims who say Islam is a religion of peace, but forget to say that it is also a religion of justice. They emphasize the peace part because they want to be accepted.

[unknownprince]

I hope that this shows my wrorryaan Baygham and Toramana that your strategy is testable in this simulation lab here at PF. Remove the stimulus for radicalization and eliminate interventionalism and the Pashtuns will regulate their own. Even as they (the secular nationalists) stepped out of the thread and did not poke or prod, meaning they allowed the natural tendencies of the people to manifest, twas not Matuzalite against sunni against shiite against Wrayun against Admin Khan against me against Rudolph etc.... rather an individual that they view as representing the views that they are staunchly against became the focus of autocorrection.

Now expand that to a grand scale... 30,000 fighters estimated (probably 10% are rendered in the no comprimise category) against millions of people that want a middle ground approach.

BarakzaiAbdali,

when you say millions of people want a middle ground approach, who are you referring to?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I think Sangar has a good point here. I do get the feeling that some people do try to adjust Islam to fit in with their surroundings. This is a very dangerous precedent set because then things can continue to spiral out of control both culturally and religiously.

It's like those Muslims who say Islam is a religion of peace, but forget to say that it is also a religion of justice. They emphasize the peace part because they want to be accepted.

Well the question is really what the kaafir standard is and what the Muslim standard is. For instance, take the issue of how one deals with their wife:
1. Aishah Bibi had enough privilege and freedom to freely refuse to "go to her husband" when the wahee came down vindicating her innocence. She freely said something to the extent of "I only owe God anything."
2. In our societies, there is so much good and so much I miss... but what has happened is abuse of power in many relationships that have created injustice: e.g. (King to the people and vice versa, husband to wife and vice versa, tribal leader and his people etc.).
3. In hadith literature you see a healthy discussion of for example, sexual matters to the point where Ali (R) experiences nocturnal emission and, like most men, even American, will not discuss this with hsi father in law, but did seek guidance from his colleagues.

Truth dignity and honesty do come in though when discussing defensive measures that Muslims have taken across the world. I refuse to condemn a single Afghan fighter no matter what their actions... because that is a response to interventionalism. You are correct that it is the duty of Muslims to not mince words, even when talking to their colleagues about the answer to the ever asked question: "why do they hate us?" It is absolutely true that defensive struggles are a precept of Islam and do not require a Caliph to declare that mode of action... and it is the duty of Hamza Yusuf, Ingrid Mattison, etc to tell Peter King and his commission the reason for youth radicalization rests in the errant foreign policy triggering a natural pathway within Muslim society similar to how a cellular pathway is triggers when a protein binds to its receptor.

However, social justice is not unique to Muslim society and we can always gain from interacting with multiple societies.

[Alchemist]

What I've learned is that you are each good at finding the wrong in the other...suffice it to say that something is wrong with all of you. Thankfully that thing has nothing to do with your humanity or personality so the differences are quite small albiet entertaining. Baygham and Tormana confess atheism but seem very well versed in theism so much so that they bring it up in every conversation..so much so that baygham is now teaching islam to us. They profess secularism but they are constantly associating politics with religion...they blur any form of distinction between the two when they speak their mind. Sangar's lungy might be wound up a bit too tight so maybe thats why his definition of "authentic" islam is so narrow. Barakzai and Scimitar are probably the most secularist members on the forum since they never mix religion with politics...so obviously baygham and sangar are confused by their reaction.

I gotta get some popcorn...

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BarakzaiAbdali,

when you say millions of people want a middle ground approach, who are you referring to?

Im saying that the average Afghan has a view to Islam that is through the prism of culture. He loves his religion and Prophet but he certainly, being illiterate even in his own language, probably has not read a translated Quran. He does not want his ankles beaten when he walks into the masjid because his paryaan tombaan hangs an inch shy of where it should. He may accept it... but at some point he wants some level of balance. When his son's wedding comes along, he may want some traditional athaan in a sexes separated setting and there may be some Zik Afridi or Nazhenaaz playing in the background. If some guy comes into his house and smashes his TV or his radio he wants to smash that guy's head. '

Per the University of Maryland he wants Islamic Law in his constitution but also wants some right to a private life and not to be labeled as outside the fold of Islam with every action or reaction. Basically, he is a human being that wants to survive... the average Afghan Pashtun is a survivalist not an ideologue unless an outside force activates his xenophobia or makes him think he must defend his dignity.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What I've learned is that you are each good at finding the wrong in the other...suffice it to say that something is wrong with all of you. Thankfully that thing has nothing to do with your humanity or personality so the differences are quite small albiet entertaining. Baygham and Tormana confess atheism but seem very well versed in theism so much so that they bring it up in every conversation..so much so that baygham is now teaching islam to us. They profess secularism but they are constantly associating politics with religion...they blur any form of distinction between the two when they speak their mind. Sangar's lungy might be wound up a bit too tight so maybe thats why his definition of "authentic" islam is so narrow. Barakzai and Scimitar are probably the most secularist members on the forum since they never mix religion with politics...so obviously baygham and sangar are confused by their reaction.

I gotta get some popcorn...

Maybe that is the case because each time Baygham Khan and I had the back and forth I would respond and somehow in each response he saw some issue with a link to islamic thought that was nonexistent in my mind.

[maneatinglizard]

The fellow in question ("Shamla" something) appears to be influenced by the hardcore Salafism of the Ahle Hadith.

The Taliban (whom it appears are being compared to him) do not follow the same ideology/methodology, and in fact have been reported to have actually banned Salafis from teaching in Afghanistan (though I cannot confirm this myself).

Just thought that may be helpful in knowing.

Salam Alaikum

[Alchemist]

Maybe that is the case because each time Baygham Khan and I had the back and forth I would respond and somehow in each response he saw some issue with a link to islamic thought that was nonexistent in my mind.

That is my point as well...not just because of you but every muslim he has encountered in his life, especially the people he grew up with.
There is nothing original in his views that are free from religion, but everything he says is despite religion. For example, he advocates "consensual sex" because it goes against religion. Atheists are different from theists in only one respect, that they take out God from the equation and replace it with Man. The idea of a democracy entails that Man knows what is best for him, so the general Man, the people, who are good in themselves, will naturally choose the right thing. With this thought as his core belief he challenges theists to let go of Allah and follow Mankind. Like Sangar, he doesn't think that he is an issue in this equation at all because his own personal role is to make short comings on his own autonomy for the sake of the "greater good".
Obviously whoever takes anyone beside Allah as a wakeel will find everything else to fail him in this life and the hereafter.
Personally I don't fear or worry of atheists because in the end game they are also pawns manipulated by a third party that profits from the sideline.

Salam.

[Baygham]

Whats the score, GUYS, I was away and missed all the action. LOL

[Baygham]

Was AUTHENTIC TRUE ISLAM found? and whats the martyr count?

[Baygham]

Maybe that is the case because each time Baygham Khan and I had the back and forth I would respond and somehow in each response he saw some issue with a link to islamic thought that was nonexistent in my mind.

BA wrora, in my life in USA, I have very little contact with Islam except when I meet other fellow desi's. One colleague invited me to his home, had to go, call it professional courtesy or necessity. So he segregates us in his living room (knew this in advance so went alone so not embarrass him). His brother in law is dressed like a tabligi (is american born) every other word is jazakal allah and alhumdulillah; one quipped, 'drink this, it is not what you are used to but anyway' (BTW I dont drink alcohol), all the time with religious innuendos. As if to say, Oh we are so much better than you. I read minds for a living, I know what others are thinking before they think it. I know how each one is in pain, I am the one they run to in private, but in public just to keep the facade, they go on. So you guessed it right, what was the conversation about? One asked if I would join him for Juma prayer, by then quite perturbed, with civility down the drain, I told him, "I cannot bow to British stooge salafi shaatans even if they are in kaaba, take them out and I will reconsider", that shut him up.
Got the hell out of there as fast as I could, played in a poker tournament, spend a day with kafir friends, cooked at home with them, attended a photography class at a local museum. No ******* asked me about God or how my life can be so much better if only I trimmed my pubic hair just the right way and washed my a s s sunnah style. My life is better, thank you.

But I just don't live here in kafar watan, I have loved ones back home, I went there the other week. A gloom over that place, people with life sucked out of them, misery, deceit, despair, and all throwing bucket after bucket of religious fervor over wounds so deep it will take generations to heal. Should I shut my eyes and come back to this world, believe me I would if I could. My be all I need to do is forget, buy myself some more suits, upgrade my car (this one musalman wrore just bought an M6- may be I should too), take up luxury cruising and play more Poker, but what to do with the loved ones back home, any suggestions.

[Baygham]

Actually its pretty fascinating... I think that this thread proves my point more than Baygham Saibs because my advocacy behind noninterventionalism is that a society will, even if its bloody for a time, correct itself to a moderate point. So without a unifier force like some Amrikaan or Enleesi in here trying to smash Sangar, which would have thrown us all into 1 unified front to defend our own, what has happened is that this little micro cosm of a society is attempting to achieve a moderate balance all on its own.

BA wrora, I agree without foriegn intervention we will sort things out much better. But we dont live in a world without intervention. Should we build a great wall around us, cut off internet, close all embassies.

The truth cannot be further than that. We have open borders, Every security agency in the world is fully engaged in pakhtunland, every religious ideology has outside funding, every pimp and every prostitute has an out side backer with deep pockets.

Chomsky is right about one thing, its the secular democratic nationalist(sdn) who all these outsiders despise. (Dont say ANP is a secular nationalist party. I have already excluded pimps and prostitutes above and anp is as religious as any mullah party). Who will fund a secular nationalist egyptian, or a saudi or another such arab the answer is no one, while every one will fund the enemies of such groups (SDN) and thus the enemies of the small group they represent, a group that is more loyal to soul by default.

[ScimitarXEdge]

There is no "true Islam" or "untrue Islaam" there is only Islaam, which itself what is True. the hyberbolic misrepresentations and grasping for straw here by Baygham are simply irrelevancies.

Whatever contention Shamla and I have or he has with other are not with the fundamentals, but how we approach the fundamentals. Shamla prefers a more rigid approach, myself prefer a balance of intellectual inquiriy rooted in foundational relationships.

The Islam that so and so follows is not a different Islam, it's merely a different level of understanding. To me Shamla is not following the "wrong" Islaam, he's following a superficial understanding of it, he's on level 1 where as others like Wrayun like myself who are more apt for addressing nuances are on level 4, and others maybe on level 8. I'm using the analogy of levels to describe that each of us are all right on certain contexts, it's just some of us choose not by Islaam's dictation to emphasize certain contexts more than others.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA wrora, in my life in USA, I have very little contact with Islam except when I meet other fellow desi's. One colleague invited me to his home, had to go, call it professional courtesy or necessity. So he segregates us in his living room (knew this in advance so went alone so not embarrass him). His brother in law is dressed like a tabligi (is american born) every other word is jazakal allah and alhumdulillah; one quipped, 'drink this, it is not what you are used to but anyway' (BTW I dont drink alcohol), all the time with religious innuendos. As if to say, Oh we are so much better than you. I read minds for a living, I know what others are thinking before they think it. I know how each one is in pain, I am the one they run to in private, but in public just to keep the facade, they go on. So you guessed it right, what was the conversation about? One asked if I would join him for Juma prayer, by then quite perturbed, with civility down the drain, I told him, "I cannot bow to British stooge salafi shaatans even if they are in kaaba, take them out and I will reconsider", that shut him up.
Got the hell out of there as fast as I could, played in a poker tournament, spend a day with kafir friends, cooked at home with them, attended a photography class at a local museum. No ******* asked me about God or how my life can be so much better if only I trimmed my pubic hair just the right way and washed my a s s sunnah style. My life is better, thank you.

But I just don't live here in kafar watan, I have loved ones back home, I went there the other week. A gloom over that place, people with life sucked out of them, misery, deceit, despair, and all throwing bucket after bucket of religious fervor over wounds so deep it will take generations to heal. Should I shut my eyes and come back to this world, believe me I would if I could. My be all I need to do is forget, buy myself some more suits, upgrade my car (this one musalman wrore just bought an M6- may be I should too), take up luxury cruising and play more Poker, but what to do with the loved ones back home, any suggestions.

Baygham Khan wrorre,

You do not have to worry about that from me... as you can see my turban has a shade of gray in it and is not all black if you catch my drift (jk).

No seriously,

Look, I agree with a few things that you note:

1. Everyone you are talking to here has had that that fellow that came up behind him in lmanzaa and yanked his pants up like he was getting a super wedgie. I had a free half hour and the hospital I studied at had a mosque near it. I went there and this physician-hafiz saib saw that a minutae of my back was showing and yanked my scrub bottoms up so hard that I was worried he had affected by ability to sire children. Same individual used to preach and preach and turned out to be the biggest baghairath wife abuser on the planet... a friggin dermatologist hafiz man.

2. With 1 in mind, have you ever read Brave New World? I know everyone reads it in high school so at our stage its like a literary Big Mac at best... but I swear that Huxley saw things in the human nature that are demonstrated by such behaviors. Do you remember the two characters Bernard and Helmholtz? The former was a fellow who hated the society and felt out of place and appeared to be disgusted at the moral decay of it all... then you read deeper and realize he has this massive inferiority complex of sorts. Then you contrast that with Helmholtz who was this fine specimen of a muscular man with a great many women he had been with but was also a superior intellectual candidate. The two were friends, but Helmholtz was genuine. Once Bernard bought John the Savage onto the scene and became popular he sure took part in that Brave New World Bungra and quickly abandoned all his ethics. Helmholtz on the other hand, was genuine and found his middle ground.

So I think you are not far off that the current status of the American Ummah is such that religion has become the crutch of the failed, the outcasts, those that perhaps are not blessed with "rugged good looks"???
Its then utilized as a control tool between members of this society.

For this exact reason I believe this is why Dr. Scheuer finds the personage of Mr. Bin Ladin so appealing to write about (i.e. he appears to be a Helmholtz and genuine). To him, here is an individual who descended from the upper eschalons, had wives, money, etc. and basically descended himself into the masses in a fashion similar to that scene in Motorcycle Diaries when Che Guavara swims across the channel from the resort with the rich doctors to the Leper colony.

3. Regarding the gloom over there... I think that as citizens of the US our role should be to protect both populaces from eachother. The Americans cannot and will not rebuild their (Pashtun) lives and thought processes... heck the British appeared to be far better at nation building and understanding the cultural norms of others and they could barely get along over there without ethnic cleansing and bombing of waziristan now and then.

However, no nation has an inherent right to happiness, education, etc... they have to earn that right. For that matter, no nation has the right to existance in the first place... they also must earn that right.

I do not beleive that it is the duty of an American to build or pay for the education system in Kandahar except perhaps in the form of war raparations.

Now, as citizens with a foot in each world, I think that private, non US government mandated goals are something that the diaspora can certainly drive forward. As an example, take a look at that fellow in your neck of the woods... Eidhee or whatever his name is. His private ambulance endeavor has improved something in a small but measurable way.

As American diaspora it is our responsibility to undertake private endeavors that help our people to progress... but I cannot ethically mandate Barbara, Tina, Tammy, and Steve to pay for indoctrination of Pashtuns for the better or worse.