Mutazilah its pashtoon relevence by ScimitarXEdge

[Baygham]

Even if a muslim brother insults me, I will not allow a kaafir to bring distance between me and my brother.

This is called al walaa wal baraa http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...ty-islam-1427/

I know Aristotles metaphysics is Islam,
Stand by what you said yesterday, show some spine. Dharoogh khwand na kai, why did you say what you said only yesterday. Shame.

Mu'tazilah have a few major defects in their creed which is against Qur'an and sunnah.

They believe that we should rely solely on our brain when we interpret qur'an and hadith. They reject the interpretation of qur'an which conflicts with their rationale.

Like they reject punishment of the grave, the reject many other matters of ghaib ( the unseen) and claim that all these matters are figurative speech.

One of their worst defects in creed is their denial of allah's names and attributes.

They believe that allah is unable to hear, speak and know everything.

None of their beliefs are founded on Quran and Sunnah. But rather, they rely on Aristotles Metaphysics.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

As things stand in pakhtoon land, you and I are in the same boat. Now I know people are refraining here because they know I will laugh the whole thing off, but in the practical world of say a pashtoon government, let run this out. The two of us are in parliment and sangar and BA are there too. We want to tackle domestic abuse in pashtoon families. We have not been funded by any NGO, its our concern because we have found out that it happens.
Now sangar proposes a Huddood law (basically like the one in Pakistan for the last 25 years). I object citing some data from Pakistan and its experience, he rejects citing a few hadith and Quranic verses and we are at a stand still. BA abstains and you are left. How will you settle the case. Remember if you go against him you are automatically, yes you guessed it right, a murtad as the blashphemy law was passed yesterday and you and I were sent away and did not participate in that vote. Sangar does head the blasphemy law division of the supreme court under mullah omar, if you want further details.



Sangar jana, sa khoo oo wa ya, dha sa wai.

Actually, per the abuse of the law, if it is documented in a data like fashion, and similar to a hearing that the congress holds where actual citizenry and experts are bought in, if enough data can be shown to me that the lack of understanding the law makes its execution brutal and creates fassaad or fitnah by harming innocents: a suspension or moratorium is not far fetched. I would, per those circumstances vote to suspend the punishment vs making misusage of it punishable by death vs utilization of the law in a limited number of circumstances/provinces where valid courts and less corruptable locals have proven their sense of civic justice.

The same issues apply here in the US. They are just not advertised or followed up. Look at this tragic case of Cameron Todd Willingham in Texas and how Governor Perry abused his post, instigate a cover up, and then still won an election after an innocent man died:

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/10/09/a...h-penalty.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/death-by-fire/

The Innocence Project run by Barry Scheck appears to be exposing case after case of the death penalty being meted out to the wrong person as DNA evidence has exonerated folks. I had a chance to meet Barry in Hawaii and he is doing some wonderful work. The point is that any society can abuse and play fast and loose with a law. I would expect that a far less developed country would do just that with many different laws. Basically, I mean that we would likely see Cameron Todd Willingham's situation duplicated many folds in some areas where media is scarce, development is poor, and people do not understand the law.

The problem I have with your general approach is that you impose static conditions on all facets of Islamic Law when the caliphate itself showed that innovation in Islam can be done in a way that does not reflect Judeo Christian innovation and subsequent textual corruption.

For instance: The Quranic text clearly and emphatically bans inheriting a woman against her will. The ayah is there and I can find it for you. A proper jurist should have no problem extending that ayaah to cover rape. The hudood law as it is practiced does not find its modality in early Caliphate of Medinan law. Quiet the contrary, this animalism that is being displayed is that of jahiliyaah and a return to the animalistic mate gaurding behavior of a primitive mindset. Take for instance a rape case I read about in Jordan. It was affirmed as rape... DNA testing affirmed it. Subsequently the brother still decided to kill his sister. When asked why, he said... she bought shame to our family.

For instance in one post you said that Islamic law cannot take into account DNA evidence. However, we physicians are taught physical exam maneuvers to look for rape that are tested and have reasonably high sensitivity and specificity right? Rape kits are also utilized. There is no ruling within Quran or sunnah at all that says:

A) Rape must be treated, ipso facto, as zinaa and therefore the accused man can get away with it.

B) DNA evidence and physical exam studies etc cannot be bought in to determine whether the woman was forced "against her will." Take the debate on moon calculation versus sighting or utilization of a sound system for the adhaan... these are innovations that do not dilute the original sense of the text.

If I were on your parliamentary board I would initiate in enquiry into why charges, accusations, etc of rape are tried under the hudood law in the first place and call in folks to discuss the line between zina and rape.

I would propose a bill that separates the two laws and the pathways initiated into their execution. Until this were accomplished I would propose a moratorium on the law. Civic education would be initated at the local level. So in a sense, I would vote with you to suspend the law at that moment.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I know Aristotles metaphysics is Islam,
Stand by what you said yesterday, show some spine. Dharoogh khwand na kai, why did you say what you said only yesterday. Shame.

Here is an example of how, Umar bin Al Khattab himself exercised this judgement. It goes to show that perhaps your imposition of a static mindset as a parameter for all argument limits motion forward and the growth or renessaince of Islamic law:

"Umar ibn al-Khattab(radiaAllahu anhu) set aside the hadd for as-saraqa(penalty for stealing) during the year of the famine because people were STEALING to EAT and they had no means of provisions whatsoever. He also forbade selling the ummul walad(female slave who has borne a child to her master and who is immediately considered free after his death), and marrying the kitaabiyaat(women from ahlul kitaab). He did all these for the sake of Istihsaan, a well known issue in Usul al Fiqh which means "equity" in the Shariah. So he didnt change the law in any way by doing this.

This can be found in the book Usul al Fiqh by Muhammad Kamali and Early Development by Ahmad Hassan

Here are the exact words:

"It has been suggested that the ruling of the second khalif, Umar ibn al-Khattab, not to enforce the hadd penalty of the amputation of the hand for theft during widespread famine, and the ban on which he imposed on the sale of the slave-mothers and marriage with kitabiyahs in certain cases were all instances of istihsaan"

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I know Aristotles metaphysics is Islam,
Stand by what you said yesterday, show some spine. Dharoogh khwand na kai, why did you say what you said only yesterday. Shame.

Take care wrorre, I am going to go study for my echo boards as I am on the 6th month research time period towards the tail end of the fellowship and I should utilize this ever rare break from clinical practice for that endeavor... this platform is addictive though because I enjoy meeting all of you folks. I have been separate from our community for most of my life and have enjoyed meeting you in this precious time that I have. I look forward to your response and will digest it intellectually, so do not mind a delayed response. Remember, there is no harsh feeling between us. You and Toramana are my brothers as are Shamlawar, Alchemist, and Edge are. We will continue to tussle and disagree, but we would all enjoy eachothers company in real life I am sure. Just remember if that happens, I do not take thor chaay, only shin.

[graveyardofempires]

baygham you FAIL!!!

[qunduz92]

does anyone which ahadith or references usama dagho use to justify killing of civlians? i am curious to know.

[Alchemist]

[qunduz92]

haha, can you reply to my post above

[BarakzaiAbdali]

does anyone which ahadith or references usama dagho use to justify killing of civlians? i am curious to know.

You know this is a hard thing to write about as I am a healer and not a warrior. But I do apply common sense when observing various insurgency conflicts like Vietnam, FARC in Columbia, IRA in ireland, and now AQ in Afghanistan/Yemen. Lets step back for a second and think about modern warfare that has an assymetric balance.

In engineering there is the concept of resolution. Think about it like the fahrenheit scale versus the celsius scale. If you divide the fahrenheit scale into the celsius scale you will see that the resolution of the fahrenheit scale is a greater, but the celcius scale's broadness from 0 (freezing) to 100 (boiling) offers us an easier metric style scale of temperature measurement (I know Kelvin is the degree of science/metric measure but bear with me). So there is about 2 degrees of resolution refinement in the Fahrenheit scale that the celsius scale does not offer right?

So in the same way, you have an empire equipped with everything from daisy cutters to drone and satellite guided bombs. So now, when that missile hits a home, it will admittedly kill fewer people than the lower "resolution" IED.

So lets review:

American arsenal: Airpower, laser guided missiles, submarine nukes, etc., m16 rapid burst guns. Remote triggering capabilities and heat seeking and thermal imaging guided technology.
Afghan fighter/OBL confirmed per Paul Refsdahl's embedding in Behind the Mask: Soviet 80s era stingers, AK47s which have terrible accuracy, their own bodies.

The strategy utilized by OBL appears to be per my reading of Scheuer
1) Lure the Americans out of their own continent as they are protected by two expansive oceans and two friendly countries for the most part.
2) Spread their forces thin and lure them into as many struggles as possible (which is why they were so ecstatic about Iraq being invaded).
3) Chip away and meat grind their economy.

Thus far, they appear to have had success on all 3 fronts.

Just as the Vietnemese and others had to utilize all means possible with their "lower resolution" technology and weaponry so too does this movement.

It does not appear that the individual Shamlawar cited advocates intentional killing of civilians but rather the text reads that a target in warfare that reaps benefits is permissable to go after.

Lets take the American view on this: If CENTCOM finds out that Omar Hotak is in a house in Deh Raud and a wedding is going on... similar to the means used to dispose Baitullah when he was getting a leg massage from his wife... a drone guided missile will be utilized to lethal effect.

Also, the literature is complex in this regard in terms of strategy employed. Read hadith literature regarding the wars with Musaylamaha Al Kaddab... one companion even offered to sacrificed himself in the following way: Musaylamah had trapped himself in a garden with high wallls. Al Baraa Bin Malik has the sahabaah hoist him on a shield over the high walls which would mean nearly certain death. He was able to survive with many a wound.

Finally there is a scene in the Godfather that speaks to the brutality required in insurgency warfare that says it all in terms of when Michael Corleone, a steel minded, practical character understands that Cuba is lost to the Americans:

Michael is being driven to the hotel to meet with Lymon Roth.. he sees a Cubano blow himself up in the midst of security forces. Here is a quote from elsewhere on the web about the subject:

"Then when he's taking a cab through town, he sees a suicide bomber blow up some police/troops. This makes a profound impression upon him, seeing how the rebels are willing to DIE for their cause. Leading him to hedge on committing his full financial investment. Shortly afterwards, the Batista regime falls and everyone has to flee the country."

The usual answer I hear that I agree with ideologically, but that does not make practical sense to me due to the complete lack of arms that Refsdahl notes (Refsdahl: "The mujahideen against the Russians had the best of everything... these men had barely anything." is the commentary that the Russo-Afghan conflict under Abdullah Azzam did not conduct warfare this way. I would say that is true... but remember "they had the best of everything." As we saw in Tunisia... when that young man burned his own body and committed suicide... when all else is taken away from an opposition, they will utilize lower resolution means even it involves their own bodies.

God help us all.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Baygham Saib ---><---------- SXEdge Saib ????

[ScimitarXEdge]

While it's true Mu'tazilah studied books on Aristolean Metaphysics; there's never been any evidence that their ideas are derived from them.

Any evidence to the contrary?

[Toramana]

This Mutazila thing is just a facade by SX to disgiuse his extremist views. Shamlawar Khurasani and SX (and by that corralory, Mullah Umar, Ladin, etc. as well ) are two faces of the same coin.

[Alchemist]

This Mutazila thing is just a facade by SX to disgiuse his extremist views. Shamlawar Khurasani and SX (and by that corralory, Mullah Umar, Ladin, etc. as well ) are two faces of the same coin.

The coin called Islam?


on what coin will I find your face toramana?

[Wrayun]

Baygham, nice try. But my comment was intended for Wrayun's disrespectful way of talking about Rasul allah sal allahu alayhi wasalam.

By God, you will have to answer for you lies. You are such a liar, and you do it all in the name of being an authentic Muslim.

I agree with this atheists Baygham when he calls you a beghairata. You have no ghairat otherwise you wouldn't make lies against other Muslims.

Sta zamir nishta? Pa kabar ba jawab warkay da darogho. Lag sharam oka, zan sara ta noro Musalmanano noom de skha kral.

[Wrayun]

What Baygham did here, is exactly what other atheists do all the time when I debate with them. Atheists have a field day with people like Sangar, and it's so easy. Atheists also refer to people like Sangar again and again as "real" Muslims, "authentic" Muslims to draw attention to the character of a so-called Muslim.

In my debates with atheists, they usually turn around and ask me to go first become a "authentic" Muslim. Because only then they can have their fun. Only then their criticism of Islam, the Prophet, and Muslims can have substance.

We see that here, Sangar is being used again to mock Muslims on this platform who have refuted atheists and secularists claims.

Why does Islam need enemies when it has "authentic" Muslims like Sangar?