Pakistan Census 2017 (pashtun Population)

[Elias]

Well the reason Afghanistan has been at constant war since 40 years is nobody seems to go along with each other . That is exactly the reason they are under occupation right now because they have no singular voice . Everybody is trying to step on each other and there is a power struggle between different ethnicities to rule the country and the end result is one big mess .

Punjab constitutes almost 55-60 % of the population while Karachi is the economic workhorse with majority Urdu speakers so its only natural for people to assume that .

You seem to be an Afghanistan expert.
So minority's in Pakistan assimilate to Sindhi/Punjabi culture and in exchange they get 'peace' and 'harmony'?
Afghanistan is occupied but atleast an ordinary afghan is Azad in his minds and practicing of his culture and language, meanwhile in Pakistan practicing other culture/language than Indics is seen as against Peace/Pakistan/Harmony.

[Razor]

[url=https://youtu.be/hHRrTHJ2oN8]
And you are not as diverse as you think. 80% of Pakistan are Indian Muslims and Pashtuns and Baloch are getting day by day assimilated because of the lack of supporting diversity by the government. On the other hand even if Afghanistan is not as rich and stable as Pakistan but the government gives its best to promote each culture/language.

76 languages seems to be a lot until you find out that 4/5 of Pakistan are Indian Muslims and that's why one can't see the diversity in daily life in the big cities like Islamabad, Lahore or Karachi and one can't distinguish between Pakistanis and Indians. Pakistan is culturally quiet homogeneous.

Pakistanis are as much "Indian" as Afghans if you are referring to the British definition of India, which included a lot of Pashtun territory by the way.

Yes we absolutely get it. Punjabis and Sindhis are related to their Hindi speaking brothers across the border and less so, to the South Indians and East Indians, but do bear in mind that the cultural and linguistic flow during Mughal era went FROM Central Asia/Afghanistan/Pakistan TO North India and not the other way around. Hindi is derived from Urdu, a language which resulted in conquest by Persianised Turkic people so it is very much a Muslim language and the Mughals had full Afghan support too.

I understand your arguments but you are really twisting the facts here.

[Razor]

Well you can be but like shapur pointed out its very difficult to maintain our identity in pakistan for the long run when everything is so india centric. the history we are taught is of india, natioanl language in an indian language, national identity is indian muslim identity etc everything is based on being 'desi'. This becomes even more obvious when you step out of pakistan where pakistani = indian, this is the common view by even other pakistanis abroad and you will stick out as not 'true pakistani' if you're not into the typical indian/desi/hindi based culture. hell most indians ive met dont even know pashto speakers exist in pakistan because thats the image pakistan and pakistanis propogate that we are one homogenous group of north indian muslim origin.

About national interests vs ethnic interests if you havent noticed already we get screwed pretty often in favor of national interests so its no wonder some people would want to focus more on their own well being, and yes i know pashtuns in afghanistan arent in a better position (except culturally)

Which history and identity?

Mughal. Not Indian
Urdu. Not Indian
Islam. Not Indian
Punjabi and Sindhi? Minority status in India.

[salman47]

Which history and identity?

Mughal. Not Indian
Urdu. Not Indian
Islam. Not Indian
Punjabi and Sindhi? Minority status in India.

Mughal is not Indian? Ok fine but at least it was about Hindustan.
Urdu is not Indian Language? Go do a brain scan.(few foriegn words does not make a language alien.)
Islam is not Indian? You're right but there are some Indic stuff tied to Islam somehow.

[salman47]

Pakistanis are as much "Indian" as Afghans if you are referring to the British definition of India, which included a lot of Pashtun territory by the way.

Yes we absolutely get it. Punjabis and Sindhis are related to their Hindi speaking brothers across the border and less so, to the South Indians and East Indians, but do bear in mind that the cultural and linguistic flow during Mughal era went FROM Central Asia/Afghanistan/Pakistan TO North India and not the other way around. Hindi is derived from Urdu, a language which resulted in conquest by Persianised Turkic people so it is very much a Muslim language and the Mughals had full Afghan support too.

I understand your arguments but you are really twisting the facts here.

'twisting facts'!! Lol
Any Linguist/Historian in the world will laugh at you.

[Razor]

Mughal is not Indian? Ok fine but at least it was about Hindustan.
Urdu is not Indian Language? Go do a brain scan.(few foriegn words does not make a language alien.)
Islam is not Indian? You're right but there are some Indic stuff tied to Islam somehow.

'twisting facts'!! Lol
Any Linguist/Historian in the world will laugh at you.

Mughals were Muslim, Persianised Turkics from Central Asia, namely Uzbekistan. The territory included All of Afghanistan, Baluchistan, Indus Valley as well as Hindustan. Why do you only highlight Hindustan?

Urdu was a result of the Mughals I just described above. Hindi appeared overnight in the 19th century when the Hindus of North India rejected Urdu and demanded the Persian and Arabic influences to be dropped and a non Persian script be used. You have to be severely brain damaged to claim this language for Hindustan. The language or its derivative is barely used in South and East India. You should consider studying on this subject.

Islam is Islam. There is no "indic stuff" attached to it. I don't know even know what you mean by Indic. Indus Valley Indic or Bharat Indic? Regardless, you seem to be forgetting which direction the invasions went.

Is there anything else you want to claim for Hindustan?

[Traveller]

Which history and identity?

Mughal. Not Indian
Urdu. Not Indian
Islam. Not Indian
Punjabi and Sindhi? Minority status in India.

Urdu is originally from Uttar Pradesh, India. Even now North India is the actual homeland of Urdu. And Mughals were originally Turks but they were eventually Indianized and they contributed a lot to the creation of Hindustani Muslim identity(the people who made Pakistan were largely Hindustani Muslims so it's not a surprise they promoted the Mughals and ignored other Islamic empires that had ruled the area which now comprises Pakistan)
As for Punjabi and Sindhi, Punjab and Sindh are historically the frontier regions of Hindustan.
You can see how Pakistan takes all of it's heritage from North Indian Muslim culture in the way KPK and Balochistan are ignored in Pakistani history in favor of Hindustan. In Pakistani schools children are taught that Islam first came to Pakistan(or the lands which now comprise Pakistan) through Sindh, although it is clear that Islam came to Balochistan long before it came to Sindh. I'm not sure about KPK and FATA but if probably came to us before Sindh as well.
I don't hate Pakistan, it is my country(or at least the country where I originate from) and I hope Allah gives it peace and prosperity. However, we should give valid criticism where it is deserved.
As for Islam, Islam is universal and is not confined to any single region, culture, or country.

[Samandri]

Urdu was a result of the Mughals I just described above.

Urdu was not a result of Mughals. Various dialects of Hindi or Hindawi existed in the present-day Urdu belt. Urdu is based on Khariboli dialect of Hindi. Afghan/Pashtun rulers were the first Muslim rulers who patronized Hindi and included the language in official writings to communicate with the Hindu masses who did not know Persian. In that period Hindi was mixed with Persian and Arabic as Afghans heavily recruited Hindu officers who had to learn Hindi as well as Persian.

As far as Mughals are concerned, as late as 1739 Mughal household spoke Persian as well as Turki. This is attested by official histories of Nadir Shah, Mughal king Muhammad Shah conversed with him in Turki. Urdu came into being as Hindi belt was ruled by Muslims whose official language was Farsi and Hindi language absorbed many Farsi and Arabic words.

[Friends of Baloch]

Paki inferiority complex again.

Pakistanis are as much "Indian" as Afghans if you are referring to the British definition of India, which included a lot of Pashtun territory by the way.

Yes we absolutely get it. Punjabis and Sindhis are related to their Hindi speaking brothers across the border and less so, to the South Indians and East Indians, but do bear in mind that the cultural and linguistic flow during Mughal era went FROM Central Asia/Afghanistan/Pakistan TO North India and not the other way around. Hindi is derived from Urdu, a language which resulted in conquest by Persianised Turkic people so it is very much a Muslim language and the Mughals had full Afghan support too.

I understand your arguments but you are really twisting the facts here.

Lol. No, you're twisting the 'facts'.

1) Punjab and Sindh is North India.

2) Urdu and Hindi are the same language.

Which history and identity?

Mughal. Not Indian
Urdu. Not Indian
Islam. Not Indian
Punjabi and Sindhi? Minority status in India.

Urdu is not Indian? lol.

Mughals were Muslim, Persianised Turkics from Central Asia, namely Uzbekistan. The territory included All of Afghanistan, Baluchistan, Indus Valley as well as Hindustan. Why do you only highlight Hindustan?

'Indus Valley' is Hindustan. The name Hindu is derived from the Old Persian corruption of Sindhu, aka Indus. Hindustan has historically been identified as the land east of the Khyber Pass starting from the lowland plains down from Peshawar all the way east to the Bay of Bengal.

I don't know even know what you mean by Indic. Indus Valley Indic or Bharat Indic?

You're Indian. The imaginary line invented by Cyril Radcliffe in 1947 does not change that.

[maneatinglizard]

Pakistanis are as much "Indian" as Afghans if you are referring to the British definition of India, which included a lot of Pashtun territory by the way.

lol Pakistanis (Punjabis, Sindhis, Muhajirs) are Indians because they speak Indian languages, their culture is Indo-Islamic, their traditional territories are within the Indian subcontinent, and genetically they are firmly within the realm of other Indians.

Afghans speak an Iranian language, follow a culture with firm roots in Central Asia and the Iranian-Islamic sphere, our traditional terrorizes are part of the Iranian Plateau, and are genetically similar to other Iranian people.

It has nothing to do with the British, and everything to do with our respective identities. I get disliking the current government of India and not wanting to associate with it. Most Afghans hate Iran and don't like that our language and culture is classified in the West as "Iranian." But we can't just arbitrarily decide we're actually something else just because we don't like the name. Whatever you want to call it, we're similar to Persians and other Iranic groups, just like you're similar to Indic groups.

Yes we absolutely get it. Punjabis and Sindhis are related to their Hindi speaking brothers across the border and less so, to the South Indians and East Indians, but do bear in mind that the cultural and linguistic flow during Mughal era went FROM Central Asia/Afghanistan/Pakistan TO North India and not the other way around. Hindi is derived from Urdu, a language which resulted in conquest by Persianised Turkic people so it is very much a Muslim language and the Mughals had full Afghan support too.

What does the "cultural and linguistic flow" during the Mughal era have anything to do with what Urdu is? Urdu is an evolution of an Indic language that ended up absorbing tons of Arabic, Persian, etc. due to the political and cultural dominance of Persianized and Islamicized groups in India, but the language itself is still very much Indic.

Languages are not themselves "Muslim" or "non-Muslim." Even if a language were spoken only by Muslims, it wouldn't inherently be a better language, or a more Muslim language, than one that was spoken by Muslims and kuffar. But in Urdu's case, it isn't even primarily spoken by Muslims! There are more Hindus that speak Hindi than Muslims that speak Urdu, so what exactly makes Urdu a Muslim language?

Which history and identity?

Mughal. Not Indian
Urdu. Not Indian
Islam. Not Indian
Punjabi and Sindhi? Minority status in India.

The Mughals were rulers of India and have nothing to do with Pakistan. Islam is not owned by Pakistan and no one associates Islam with Pakistan. Urdu, Punjabi, and Sindhi are firmly Indian languages. What does minority status have anything to do with their indic-ness?

[Razor]

Urdu was not a result of Mughals. Various dialects of Hindi or Hindawi existed in the present-day Urdu belt. Urdu is based on Khariboli dialect of Hindi. Afghan/Pashtun rulers were the first Muslim rulers who patronized Hindi and included the language in official writings to communicate with the Hindu masses who did not know Persian. In that period Hindi was mixed with Persian and Arabic as Afghans heavily recruited Hindu officers who had to learn Hindi as well as Persian.

As far as Mughals are concerned, as late as 1739 Mughal household spoke Persian as well as Turki. This is attested by official histories of Nadir Shah, Mughal king Muhammad Shah conversed with him in Turki. Urdu came into being as Hindi belt was ruled by Muslims whose official language was Farsi and Hindi language absorbed many Farsi and Arabic words.

Hindi did not exist. You mean to say Hindustani, which was written in Persian script. Hindi came later. The origin of the language is not relevant. Without Mughals it would never have become this significant

[Razor]

Paki inferiority complex again.


Lol. No, you're twisting the 'facts'.

1) Punjab and Sindh is North India.

2) Urdu and Hindi are the same language.



Urdu is not Indian? lol.



'Indus Valley' is Hindustan. The name Hindu is derived from the Old Persian corruption of Sindhu, aka Indus. Hindustan has historically been identified as the land east of the Khyber Pass starting from the lowland plains down from Peshawar all the way east to the Bay of Bengal.[/B][/SIZE]



You're Indian. The imaginary line invented by Cyril Radcliffe in 1947 does not change that.

Exactly what I expected from an Indian who literally has no identity without the Indus or the Mughals.

Punjab and Sindh IS the Indus valley. Your arguments are based on a misnomer. Ganges and South Indians have nothing to do with Indus valley other than the nonsensical use of the name.

Live with it please.

[Razor]

lol Pakistanis (Punjabis, Sindhis, Muhajirs) are Indians because they speak Indian languages, their culture is Indo-Islamic, their traditional territories are within the Indian subcontinent, and genetically they are firmly within the realm of other Indians.


Afghans speak an Iranian language, follow a culture with firm roots in Central Asia and the Iranian-Islamic sphere, our traditional terrorizes are part of the Iranian Plateau, and are genetically similar to other Iranian people.

It has nothing to do with the British, and everything to do with our respective identities. I get disliking the current government of India and not wanting to associate with it. Most Afghans hate Iran and don't like that our language and culture is classified in the West as "Iranian." But we can't just arbitrarily decide we're actually something else just because we don't like the name. Whatever you want to call it, we're similar to Persians and other Iranic groups, just like you're similar to Indic groups.



What does the "cultural and linguistic flow" during the Mughal era have anything to do with what Urdu is? Urdu is an evolution of an Indic language that ended up absorbing tons of Arabic, Persian, etc. due to the political and cultural dominance of Persianized and Islamicized groups in India, but the language itself is still very much Indic.

Languages are not themselves "Muslim" or "non-Muslim." Even if a language were spoken only by Muslims, it wouldn't inherently be a better language, or a more Muslim language, than one that was spoken by Muslims and kuffar. But in Urdu's case, it isn't even primarily spoken by Muslims! There are more Hindus that speak Hindi than Muslims that speak Urdu, so what exactly makes Urdu a Muslim language?



The Mughals were rulers of India and have nothing to do with Pakistan. Islam is not owned by Pakistan and no one associates Islam with Pakistan. Urdu, Punjabi, and Sindhi are firmly Indian languages. What does minority status have anything to do with their indic-ness?

Arbitrary and misleading definition of India. So what do Pakistanis have in common with South Indians or East Indians? And how are Afghans oh-so-distant from their Punjabi neighbors?

Your attempts to tie Punjab and Sindh to South India are ridiculous.

Half of Modern India is Dravidian, which is another family altogether. You are far too hung up on the word "Indian" to realise the actual differences.

[Razor]

I am not saying that Punjabis and Sindhis are not related to North Indias, but certain people here are far too eager to dismiss 1000 years of Muslim identity and tag it to the modern nation of India, which makes no sense. Ironically, you are using British borders to define the Muslim identity of the North-West subcontinent, which is different from North India and even more so than South India and Bengal region.

[kunatawar]

Which history and identity?

Mughal. Not Indian
Urdu. Not Indian
Islam. Not Indian
Punjabi and Sindhi? Minority status in India.

mughals originate outside of india true but they adapted later into indian culture, north indian mulsim culture is heavily influenced by mughals in their later years now please dont tell me north indian muslim culture of bihar, UP, is not actually indian...

Urdu is indian, it originates in india, its spoken mainly in india, and all its history and literature is tied to north india. urdu's base is completely indian with some loanwords added into it from farsi and arabic, that doesnt change what it is. Also keep in mind spoken urdu is mutually intelligible with spoken hindi so apparently hindi is also not indain

islam is just a religion anyone can adopt it, that doent meant all muslims are the same, if you read my posts you will see im complaining about indian muslim culture not indian buddhist culture.

punjab and sindhi culture in indian/desi even if they are a minority in india. punjabi and sindhi culture and language is in the north indian cultural-linguistic sphere even though you guys are probably the most west asia influenced