Pakistan Census 2017 (pashtun Population)

[Elias]

Most Pakistani Pashtuns in Pakistan are pretty patriotic and the seperatist ones are a small minority. As for the guy that you knew, most Pakistani Pashtuns who grew up outside of Pakistan(including me) have trouble identifying with Pakistan as we feel that Pakistani identity is based around Punjabis and Muhajirs and doesn't adequately represent us. I know several cases where a Pakistani Pashtun decided to start saying they were from Afghanistan because they were tired of being associated with Indics.

And I agree with you on nationalism. There's nothing special about these people and we shouldn't glorify them. Having reasonable pride over your cultural background and the land you're from is fine but this flag-waving bs based on fake borders is stupid.

Pakistan Army Music Band Performing in Moscow, Russia - YouTube
Skip to 3:45
Not anymore 😂.(In a Country where according to some gul khans and 'pathans' 60-70 % is pashtun why couldn't they find some Pashtuns doing the attan instead of some indics.) I promise you you will feel 'Fremdschaemen'.

[toughpashtun]

Some of our (non-military)masharan do insult him though!!

P.S. One of them made a funny parody on the National Anthem(i forgot but regardless).

There are exceptions to every case.That parody was not meant to insult , it was more of a satire.

[toughpashtun]

This is truly for nearly every Pashtun that I have met from Pakistan. They quite proudly claim they are Afghan, which is a true statement, ethnically.

I consider myself to be ethnically Afghan , but a Pakistani national.In the older documents from British era , the ethnicity of Pashtuns would be listed as Afghan and then their tribe.
There is a difference between the ethnic Afghan(which are all Pashtuns) and an Afghan national(which are Tajiks,Hazara , Uzbek ,Pashtun etc).

[maneatinglizard]

most Pakistani Pashtuns who grew up outside of Pakistan(including me) have trouble identifying with Pakistan as we feel that Pakistani identity is based around Punjabis and Muhajirs and doesn't adequately represent us. I know several cases where a Pakistani Pashtun decided to start saying they were from Afghanistan because they were tired of being associated with Indics.

This is truly for nearly every Pashtun that I have met from Pakistan. They quite proudly claim they are Afghan, which is a true statement, ethnically.

This is what confuses me though. If everyone outside of Pakistan's perception of Pakistani identity is that of Punjabis and other Indic Muslim groups, how come some/most Pashtuns within Pakistan feel so proud of being Pakistani, and don't see the country the way everyone else does?

If even Pakistani Pashtuns lose their attachment to Pakistani identity after migrating to other countries, where is the hardcore Pakistani nationalism in some/many/most Pakistani Pashtuns coming from? It feels manufactured to me, but I'd like to hear what others, especially Pakistani Pashtuns who know people both in and outside of the country, think.

It very clear to me that Pashtuns from Afghnistan hate Punjabies more than the Pakistan Pashtuns themselves.. while expecting Pakistani pashtuns to do the same without realizing that Pakistani Pashtuns have quite good working relationship with punjabaies etc.

Similarly Pakistani Pashtuns hate Tajiks/Farsiwans with passsion while Pashtuns on the afghanistan side of the border want to have working relationship with them.

Bottomline, in my opinion, is that both sides should give up the idea of united pashtunistan and concentrate on their respective countries.

I have no doubt i my mind that pashtuns on both side of the border can be very sucessful. And hopefully a day would come when the borders between the two countries wont matter, eg Europe etc.

No one's bashing Punjabis or Tajiks, or talking about a united Pashtunistan here.

But from this board at least, it seems you have it backwards. Most of the Punjabi bashing here comes from Pakistani Pashtuns, whereas the Tajik bashing comes from Afghan Pashtuns. I think this makes more sense in general too, as Punjabis have little effect on the daily lives of Afghan Pashtuns (and likewise Tajiks have little effect on Pakistani Pashtuns). Racism tends to be strongest when the other group is close enough to be perceived as a threat/competition, but not close enough for close personal relationships to form.

Pakistan Army Music Band Performing in Moscow, Russia - YouTube
Skip to 3:45
Not anymore 😂.(In a Country where according to some gul khans and 'pathans' 60-70 % is pashtun why couldn't they find some Pashtuns doing the attan instead of some indics.) I promise you you will feel 'Fremdschaemen'.

Fremdschaemen was felt lol. That was pretty bad, though military processions in general tend to be pretty embarrassing to watch.

[Ironhide]

I consider myself to be ethnically Afghan , but a Pakistani national.In the older documents from British era , the ethnicity of Pashtuns would be listed as Afghan and then their tribe.
There is a difference between the ethnic Afghan(which are all Pashtuns) and an Afghan national(which are Tajiks,Hazara , Uzbek ,Pashtun etc).

No one is denying the fact that pashtun is afghan and afghan is pashtun. we are just talking about afghan/pashtun on different sides of durand

[salman47]

This was probably in Afghanistan. I can't see a Pakistani Pashtun doing something like this.

Nope!
The ones I am talking about are from Pakistan(born before Pakistan of course).

[salman47]

This was probably in Afghanistan. I can't see a Pakistani Pashtun doing something like this.

There are exceptions to every case.That parody was not meant to insult , it was more of a satire.

I wish I remembered that parody, but it was not sattire. It was mildly 'Molana Bijligar' type of...

[toughpashtun]

I wish I remembered that parody, but it was not sattire. It was mildly 'Molana Bijligar' type of...

I see you're talking about the Pashto version , which I've not watched.Only saw the Urdu one.

[toughpashtun]

Most Pakistani Pashtuns in Pakistan are pretty patriotic and the seperatist ones are a small minority. As for the guy that you knew, most Pakistani Pashtuns who grew up outside of Pakistan(including me) have trouble identifying with Pakistan as we feel that Pakistani identity is based around Punjabis and Muhajirs and doesn't adequately represent us. I know several cases where a Pakistani Pashtun decided to start saying they were from Afghanistan because they were tired of being associated with Indics.

And I agree with you on nationalism. There's nothing special about these people and we shouldn't glorify them. Having reasonable pride over your cultural background and the land you're from is fine but this flag-waving bs based on fake borders is stupid.

Why do Pakistani Pashtuns have love for Pakistan?
Firstly , this is where they were born , their families and tribes have been living here for centuries , they have practiced their culture and lifestyle without any interference.They see it as their home.
Someone may come up with an arguement that this region was once a part of Afghanistan in that the ruler of Kabul or Kandahar held sway over this area , so my response is that, with times , things change.Fortunately or unfortunately , the Pashtun region was divided and a large chunk came in Pakistan' share.
Currently , there are at least twice as many(and maybe three times) as many Pashtuns in Pakistan as they are in Afghanistan.

No matter what someone may tell you , Pashtuns are not treated like second class citizens in Pakistan.

If you keep these points in mind , you'll realize that why we have a love for Pakistan and don;t consider it as a Punjabi or Muhajir nation or that we've been forced to become a part of this country.

[Traveller]

Why do Pakistani Pashtuns have love for Pakistan?
Firstly , this is where they were born , their families and tribes have been living here for centuries , they have practiced their culture and lifestyle without any interference.They see it as their home.
Someone may come up with an arguement that this region was once a part of Afghanistan in that the ruler of Kabul or Kandahar held sway over this area , so my response is that, with times , things change.Fortunately or unfortunately , the Pashtun region was divided and a large chunk came in Pakistan' share.
Currently , there are at least twice as many(and maybe three times) as many Pashtuns in Pakistan as they are in Afghanistan.

No matter what someone may tell you , Pashtuns are not treated like second class citizens in Pakistan.

If you keep these points in mind , you'll realize that why we have a love for Pakistan and don;t consider it as a Punjabi or Muhajir nation or that we've been forced to become a part of this country.

I understand your points and I identify as a Pakistani. I think Pashtuns in Pakistan have little reason to not be proud Pakistanis.
As for the Punjabi and Muhajir thing, this is a perception that many western Pashtuns have for reasons specific to the west.
I think things are actually getting better for Pashtuns in Pakistan. The new generation of Punjabis is more understanding of Pashtun culture and are accepting Pashtun culture to be a part of Pakistani culture.
There are problems, such as neglect of Pashto language and Pashtun history, but that has less to do with Pakistan and Punjabis more to do with the neglect of Pashtuns themselves.
I think the most important goal for Pashtuns on both sides of the border, is to establish good relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Secessionist movements such as Pashtunistan have got us nowhere.

[Samandri]

No, we have to be realistic. Pakistan was meant to be a country for Hindi Musalman. Pashtuns ended up in Al-Hind because of their own stupidity, failures and incompetence. Durand line is one of the most unnatural border in the world, its a reminder of our failure and defeats. Some points to note ;

1- Lar Pashtuns ended up in Muslim version of Al-Hind because they were already part of Al-Hind due to British conquest. The unprecedented foundation of native Pashtun kingdom/state in 18th century was nothing less than a miracle but it was marked for failure from the get go. The failure had more to do with inherent akhroatness of Pashtuns then efficiency and evilness of enemies.

2- The reason why there was no unrest/uproar or shock over NWFP, FATA and Baluchistan becoming part of Pakistan because the region had gradually integrated with India under British rule. The rise of Deobandi maslak of Urdu Musalman in early 20th century North-West caused the Indianization of Pashtun belt. British government itself promoted Urdu in Pashtun belt and discouraged Pashto. The politics of Khudai khidmatgar integrated Pashtun belt with India. Later British government actively helped Muslim league to take root in NWFP, causing further Indianization. Punjabi, Kashmiri Sindhi and Urduspeakers are the real sons of Pakistan while Pashtuns and Baluchs are adopted sons.

3- Pashtuns of Pakistan should not forget themselves. They should not drown themselves in stupid notion of Pakistani nationalism and should not shout "jeevay jeeavay Pakistan".......their emphasis should be on the "Pashtun with Pakistani nationality" rather than becoming " Only Pakistani (Al-Hindi) nothing else". Pashtuns have to "co-exist" with Pakistanis on the other side of Indus, not "assimilate" into Pakistani/Hindi identity.

4- Even if population of Pashtuns of Pakistan become four times larger than those of Afghanistan, they will always be insignificant minority and lackeys in Pakistan. The burden and responsibility of representing and leading Pashtun nation is on Afghanistan.

[Traveller]

No, we have to be realistic. Pakistan was meant to be a country for Hindi Musalman. Pashtuns ended up in Al-Hind because of their own stupidity, failures and incompetence. Durand line is one of the most unnatural border in the world, its a reminder of our failure and defeats. Some points to note ;

1- Lar Pashtuns ended up in Muslim version of Al-Hind because they were already part of Al-Hind due to British conquest. The unprecedented foundation of native Pashtun kingdom/state in 18th century was nothing less than a miracle but it was marked for failure from the get go. The failure had more to do with inherent akhroatness of Pashtuns then efficiency and evilness of enemies.

2- The reason why there was no unrest/uproar or shock over NWFP, FATA and Baluchistan becoming part of Pakistan because the region had gradually integrated with India under British rule. The rise of Deobandi maslak of Urdu Musalman in early 20th century North-West caused the Indianization of Pashtun belt. British government itself promoted Urdu in Pashtun belt and discouraged Pashto. The politics of Khudai khidmatgar integrated Pashtun belt with India. Later British government actively helped Muslim league to take root in NWFP, causing further Indianization. Punjabi, Kashmiri Sindhi and Urduspeakers are the real sons of Pakistan while Pashtuns and Baluchs are adopted sons.

3- Pashtuns of Pakistan should not forget themselves. They should not drown themselves in stupid notion of Pakistani nationalism and should not shout "jeevay jeeavay Pakistan".......their emphasis should be on the "Pashtun with Pakistani nationality" rather than becoming " Only Pakistani (Al-Hindi) nothing else". Pashtuns have to "co-exist" with Pakistanis on the other side of Indus, not "assimilate" into Pakistani/Hindi identity.

4- Even if population of Pashtuns of Pakistan become four times larger than those of Afghanistan, they will always be insignificant minority and lackeys in Pakistan. The burden and responsibility of representing and leading Pashtun nation is on Afghanistan.

I also agree with these points.
The way I feel about this is that while our inclusion in Pakistan isn't ideal we can't really do anything about it for various reasons so it's better to focus on things we can do.

[toughpashtun]

3- Pashtuns of Pakistan should not forget themselves. They should not drown themselves in stupid notion of Pakistani nationalism and should not shout "jeevay jeeavay Pakistan".......their emphasis should be on the "Pashtun with Pakistani nationality" rather than becoming " Only Pakistani (Al-Hindi) nothing else". Pashtuns have to "co-exist" with Pakistanis on the other side of Indus, not "assimilate" into Pakistani/Hindi identity.

I agree with you on maintaining Pashtun identity , patriotism is a natural result of living in a country where you enjoy rights.

[toughpashtun]

[MENTION=19846]Traveller[/MENTION] and [MENTION=18842]Samandri[/MENTION] ,
I will point out another reason for Pashtun patriotism towards Pakistan.In the last 10-15 years , Pashtuns of Pakistan have suffered greatly due to militancy and associated terrorism in the form of suicide bombings , killing of tribal leaders etc. Military ops forced out many Pashtuns and they became IDPs.
In the end however , their areas were cleared , military efforts contributed to peace.
It was a triumph for the army and Pakistani nation , and since conditions improved for Pashtuns , that jazba of Pakistaniat increased.
The bad situation in Pashtun areas was blamed on India and Afghanistan , so the Pashtuns developed even more love for Pakistan and its armed forces.

I'd say that there is more patriotism now than there was even twenty years ago.
One thing I'd point out though , that in 1948 , just one year after Pakistan's independence , Pashtuns lashkars from FATA and KPK ( particularly from Waziristan) were on the front lines in Kashmir fighting voluntarily against the Indian troops.This goes on to show that these Pashtuns have had a love for Pakistan from the start.

[salman47]

Why do Pakistani Pashtuns have love for Pakistan?
Firstly , this is where they were born , their families and tribes have been living here for centuries , they have practiced their culture and lifestyle without any interference.They see it as their home.
Someone may come up with an arguement that this region was once a part of Afghanistan in that the ruler of Kabul or Kandahar held sway over this area , so my response is that, with times , things change.Fortunately or unfortunately , the Pashtun region was divided and a large chunk came in Pakistan' share.
Currently , there are at least twice as many(and maybe three times) as many Pashtuns in Pakistan as they are in Afghanistan.

No matter what someone may tell you , Pashtuns are not treated like second class citizens in Pakistan.

If you keep these points in mind , you'll realize that why we have a love for Pakistan and don;t consider it as a Punjabi or Muhajir nation or that we've been forced to become a part of this country.

Also add to the fact that most of the Pashtuns in Pakistan felt the betrayal from the Afghan side since 1893(don't regurgitate the same boring Afghan POV, remember there are 2 sides of a story/fight/whatever).
When Pakistani 'DACA' came into play(recall that Pashtuns had nothing to do with it), the Afghan Pashtuns treated the Pakistani Pashtuns very badly(to the point of kidnapping children and some other horrible stories).

P.S. I am not a patriot, I do criticize the Army/ISI/Government from time to time. But still I think of protection of my beloved Pakhtunkhwa from joining Afghanistan(I am saying this because bad/horrible/blinding/deafening things will happen if we were to join Afghanistan, sure there are good people everywhere but remember they will always be living UNDER THE BRIDGE).

Never trust a conquering Army, doesn't matter if they are hardcore Muslims(esp.)