Pakistan Census 2017 (pashtun Population)

[toughpashtun]

I know it is up to Pashtuns to preserve their identity but its is 100 times harder when there is no incentive to read and write in Pashto as it is not used as a medium of education/official documents etc. Pashto has no status in KPK other than a symbolic one and a spoken language. How many scientific journals are published in Pashto or how much funding is given for the promotion of Pashto language and cukture? I guess none. Unless the language is fully utilized at all levels in every day life it will die out. There is no escaping it. I know the state is not deliberately trying to desify people, they don't have to since the dominant culture of the state is desi anyway and people will adopt the dominant culture over time. Its upto the people to demand these changes but some might even be ashamed to ask for their basic rights out of fear for causing ethnic division or preferring ethni identity over national identity. Punjabis/ Sindhis will turn around and say we have accepted Urdu, why can't Pashtuns do the same.

I have been to KPK and I know for a fact that the people find it easier to read and write in Urdu and English than in Pashto. I am sure Samandri and others will confirm this.

In Afghanistan things are slightly better as the educated Pashtuns ard able to read/ write in Pashto but there are millions of Pashtuns in Northern and western Afghanistan who are deprived of getting an education in their mother tongue due to lack government funding and attention. Both countries face slightly different challenges and the only solution is to rise above Afghan/Pakistani petty nationalism and work together for our shared interests.

You're right.I agree.Sorry state of affairs.
Initially (on your older post) I mistakenly thought that you were talking about Pakistani Pashtuns struggling with spoken Pashto thats why I objected.
Your concerns are on point.

[Charsi Malang]

Bengalis and Sindhis did not accept the imposition of Urdu on them after becoming part of Pakiland.

Punjabis are the only people to have embraced Urdu whole heartedly at the expense of their own mother tongue. They were doing this even before the British "quit" India. Their case against their own language was two-fold: 1) that Urdu was so called 'Islamic' and the 'unifying' language of Muslims and 2) that Punjabi language had a very weak literary tradition, no standard alphabet (Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims used different alphabets to write Punjabi) and is a mostly spoken dialect with a very limited history of written works. This is the basis of Pakiland's language policy since the country's invention. The policy might seem beneficial only to Urdu-speakers, but it is also driven by Punjabis' inferiority complex towards their own language which also links them to their Hindu heritage.

Any sense of meaningful diversity has always been percieved by Punjabis as a threat to the idea of Pakiland. This particularly extends to the question of Urdu vs other languages like Pashto, Balochi, Sindhi, Bengali etc

The same inferiority complex Punjabis have regarding their Dalit language is also falsely projected by them through Pakiland nationalist propaganda on Pashtuns and Baloch etc by saying that these languages are also unviable and too inadequate to be 'official' and that they are also somehow not associated enough with 'Islam' like Urdu is.

To the credit of the Bengalis and Sindhis, they struggled and made sacrifices in blood to challenge the imposition of Urdu on them. Bengalis of course eventually got their independence, Sindhis on the other hand suceeded in forcing Pakiland to accept Sindhi as an official language in Sindh in the 1970s. Originally Sindhis tried to make Sindhi the only official language of Sindh, but eventually made a compromise that Urdu could retain its official status in Sindh alongside Sindhi.

Pashtuns have so far failed to fight for Pashto like Bengalis and Sindhis did for their languages. The renaming of NWFP took long enough, but that was several years ago now and Urdu is still the official medium.

Totally agree. A lot of children from Punjabi families I have seen in the UK speak Urdu as that is the language their parents prefer to teach them.

As for Urdu being an "Islamic" language, lol, whoever thinks that is severely mistaken. Hindi and Urdu are mutually unintelligible and a Hindi speaker will have no problems whatsoever conversing with and understanding an Urdu speaker.

It can be argued that Arabic is an Islamic language as of course the Quran was revealed in Arabic. A language on the other hand which is almost the same as that spoken by millions of idol worshippers would be difficult to promote as an Islamic language.

[maneatinglizard]

Totally agree. A lot of children from Punjabi families I have seen in the UK speak Urdu as that is the language their parents prefer to teach them.

As for Urdu being an "Islamic" language, lol, whoever thinks that is severely mistaken. Hindi and Urdu are mutually unintelligible and a Hindi speaker will have no problems whatsoever conversing with and understanding an Urdu speaker.

It can be argued that Arabic is an Islamic language as of course the Quran was revealed in Arabic. A language on the other hand which is almost the same as that spoken by millions of idol worshippers would be difficult to promote as an Islamic language.

It's just nationalist propaganda. Like Pakistanis refuse to believe that their country is just an extension of India, they refuse to believe that their language is just a dialect of an Indian language.

That's what happens when your entire existence is justified by hatred of people that only differ from you in terms of nationality. Everyone else in the world laughs as they desperately try to explain how they're completely different from the same Indians they constantly bad mouth.

[Charsi Malang]

It's just nationalist propaganda. Like Pakistanis refuse to believe that their country is just an extension of India, they refuse to believe that their language is just a dialect of an Indian language.

That's what happens when your entire existence is justified by hatred of people that only differ from you in terms of nationality. Everyone else in the world laughs as they desperately try to explain how they're completely different from the same Indians they constantly bad mouth.

It's completely true. You'll find a lot of the children of Pakistani immigrants abandon their Pakistani identity and only want to adopt "Muslim" identity. That means basically dressing like Arabs and behaving like Arabs as that to them is being a Muslim and also a way of distancing themselves from their Pakistani heritage which the world views as Indian.

[Markhor]

I know it is up to Pashtuns to preserve their identity but its is 100 times harder when there is no incentive to read and write in Pashto as it is not used as a medium of education/official documents etc. Pashto has no status in KPK other than a symbolic one and a spoken language. How many scientific journals are published in Pashto or how much funding is given for the promotion of Pashto language and cukture? I guess none. Unless the language is fully utilized at all levels in every day life it will die out. There is no escaping it. I know the state is not deliberately trying to desify people, they don't have to since the dominant culture of the state is desi anyway and people will adopt the dominant culture over time. Its upto the people to demand these changes but some might even be ashamed to ask for their basic rights out of fear for causing ethnic division or preferring ethni identity over national identity. Punjabis/ Sindhis will turn around and say we have accepted Urdu, why can't Pashtuns do the same.

I have been to KPK and I know for a fact that the people find it easier to read and write in Urdu and English than in Pashto. I am sure Samandri and others will confirm this.

In Afghanistan things are slightly better as the educated Pashtuns ard able to read/ write in Pashto but there are millions of Pashtuns in Northern and western Afghanistan who are deprived of getting an education in their mother tongue due to lack government funding and attention. Both countries face slightly different challenges and the only solution is to rise above Afghan/Pakistani petty nationalism and work together for our shared interests.

Pakistani Pashtuns are more Pakistani than most other ethnicities. Majority of the Pashtuns in urban areas are hardcore Pakistani Nationalists. It's not feasible for any Pakistani to put it's ethnic love above the country . That's how countries with a diverse culture move forward . That doesn't mean you cant love your language or preserve your culture at the same time . I am sure for Afghanistan it's the other way round and the results are for all to see .

[Elias]

Pakistani Pashtuns are more Pakistani than most other ethnicities. Majority of the Pashtuns in urban areas are hardcore Pakistani Nationalists. It's not feasible for any Pakistani to put it's ethnic love above the country . That's how countries with a diverse culture move forward . That doesn't mean you cant love your language or preserve your culture at the same time . I am sure for Afghanistan it's the other way round and the results are for all to see .

khyal mohammed pashto song monga dee khaybar zalmii pashto zemonga shaan dee - YouTube

'Mung yu da Khyber zalmi pashto zamong Shan dai. Mong Afghanan yu pa watan mozan qurban dai.' This statement made by Khyal Mohammad is priceless. There are of course a lot more pashto singer like Sardar Ali Takkar, Haroon Bacha, Karan Khan etc. who didn't forget who they are.

And you are not as diverse as you think. 80% of Pakistan are Indian Muslims and Pashtuns and Baloch are getting day by day assimilated because of the lack of supporting diversity by the government. On the other hand even if Afghanistan is not as rich and stable as Pakistan but the government gives its best to promote each culture/language.

[Markhor]

khyal mohammed pashto song monga dee khaybar zalmii pashto zemonga shaan dee - YouTube

'Mung yu da Khyber zalmi pashto zamong Shan dai. Mong Afghanan yu pa watan mozan qurban dai.' This statement made by Khyal Mohammad is priceless. There are of course a lot more pashto singer like Sardar Ali Takkar, Haroon Bacha, Karan Khan etc. who didn't forget who they are.

And you are not as diverse as you think. 80% of Pakistan are Indian Muslims and Pashtuns and Baloch are getting day by day assimilated because of the lack of supporting diversity by the government. On the other hand even if Afghanistan is not as rich and stable as Pakistan but the government gives its best to promote each culture/language.

Literary notes: How many languages are spoken in Pakistan? - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

DR Tariq [Abdur] Rahman’s research says that there are 74 languages spoken in Pakistan. Dr Atash Durrani puts the figure at 76.But the latest edition of Ethnologue, a web-based publication that carries out research on over 7,000 languages of the world (Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Pakistan | Ethnologue), says there are 73 languages spoken in Pakistan. Ethnologue’s 19th edition, published in 2016, names 7,457 languages of the world and of these 360 are “dead languages”. The remaining 7,097 languages are listed by Ethnologue as “living languages”. But many of these living languages are ‘endangered’ and something must be done to save them, otherwise many would become extinct.

Some of these endangered languages are spoken in Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan’s linguistic diversity is amazing and in the northern areas alone 30 languages are spoken. It is a virtual paradise for linguists! Of them, some belong to Indo-Aryan family of languages, some are Indo-Iranian and others are Sino-Tibetan.

76 languages is alot of diversity .

[Elias]

Literary notes: How many languages are spoken in Pakistan? - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

DR Tariq [Abdur] Rahman’s research says that there are 74 languages spoken in Pakistan. Dr Atash Durrani puts the figure at 76.But the latest edition of Ethnologue, a web-based publication that carries out research on over 7,000 languages of the world (Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Pakistan | Ethnologue), says there are 73 languages spoken in Pakistan. Ethnologue’s 19th edition, published in 2016, names 7,457 languages of the world and of these 360 are “dead languages”. The remaining 7,097 languages are listed by Ethnologue as “living languages”. But many of these living languages are ‘endangered’ and something must be done to save them, otherwise many would become extinct.

Some of these endangered languages are spoken in Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan’s linguistic diversity is amazing and in the northern areas alone 30 languages are spoken. It is a virtual paradise for linguists! Of them, some belong to Indo-Aryan family of languages, some are Indo-Iranian and others are Sino-Tibetan.

76 languages is alot of diversity .

76 languages seems to be a lot until you find out that 4/5 of Pakistan are Indian Muslims and that's why one can't see the diversity in daily life in the big cities like Islamabad, Lahore or Karachi and one can't distinguish between Pakistanis and Indians. Pakistan is culturally quiet homogeneous.

[Markhor]

76 languages seems to be a lot until you find out that 4/5 of Pakistan are Indian Muslims and that's why one can't see the diversity in daily life in the big cities like Islamabad, Lahore or Karachi and one can't distinguish between Pakistanis and Indians. Pakistan is culturally quiet homogeneous.

Just curious have you been to Karachi or Lahore before ? If you did you wouldnt be saying this . Out of the 76 languages most of the endangered ones are spoken in Northern Pakistan in regions like Kalash , Hunza etc . So its only natural you won't find those languages in Karachi or Islamabad .

[kunatawar]

76 languages is alot of diversity .

76 seems like a lot until you find out that most these those are not separate languages but dialects of the same language for example punjabi, seraiki, hindko, potohari, multani are not different languages. Another good chunk of those 76 languages are very rare and spoken by very few people for example ormuri.

Anyways i dont really mind being pakistani as long as we can be pakistani nationals AND culturally pashtun, right now being a pakistani means being an indian muslim culturally and being desified. Adopting punjabi/muhajir/indian mulsim culture is definitely not how a diverse country should move forward.

te kom zai ke osege?

[Elias]

Just curious have you been to Karachi or Lahore before ? If you did you wouldnt be saying this . Out of the 76 languages most of the endangered ones are spoken in Northern Pakistan in regions like Kalash , Hunza etc . So its only natural you won't find those languages in Karachi or Islamabad .

Some languages are endangered says the article and many of them are dialects of one language like kanatawar said. That underlines my claim that Pakistan is quiet homogeneous and no I've never been to Pakistan but a visit to those cities wouldn't invalidate my claim. It tends to get more homogeneous culturally and linguistically in the future through assimilation and IDP's unless the government intervene.

[Markhor]

76 seems like a lot until you find out that most these those are not separate languages but dialects of the same language for example punjabi, seraiki, hindko, potohari, multani are not different languages. Another good chunk of those 76 languages are very rare and spoken by very few people for example ormuri.

Anyways i dont really mind being pakistani as long as we can be pakistani nationals AND culturally pashtun, right now being a pakistani means being an indian muslim culturally and being desified. Adopting punjabi/muhajir/indian mulsim culture is definitely not how a diverse country should move forward.

te kom zai ke osege?

Well you can be a Pakistani and Pashtun both the same time . I speak Pashto at home and Urdu with my friends who cant speak pashto . People on here I noticed tend to slide towards ethnic favouritism over national interests which has disasterous results . You can be fond of Dil Dil Pakistan and Pashto songs the same time without having to choose one .

Za da Shaidu yem (Town near Akora Khattak ) khu Abbotabad ki usegam .

[Markhor]

Some languages are endangered says the article and many of them are dialects of one language like kanatawar said. That underlines my claim that Pakistan is quiet homogeneous and no I've never been to Pakistan but a visit to those cities wouldn't invalidate my claim. It tends to get more homogeneous culturally and linguistically in the future through assimilation and IDP's unless the government intervene.

I have been to Karachi and it is quite cosmopolitan . Apart from the local languages you will find Burmese , Sinhalese ,Bengalis , Gujrati , Central Asians , Bohris . Lahore is lesser cosmopolitan than Karachi because it is much more Punjab centric .

[kunatawar]

Well you can be a Pakistani and Pashtun both the same time . I speak Pashto at home and Urdu with my friends who cant speak pashto . People on here I noticed tend to slide towards ethnic favouritism over national interests which has disasterous results . You can be fond of Dil Dil Pakistan and Pashto songs the same time without having to choose one .

Za da Shaidu yem (Town near Akora Khattak ) khu Abbotabad ki usegam .

Well you can be but like shapur pointed out its very difficult to maintain our identity in pakistan for the long run when everything is so india centric. the history we are taught is of india, natioanl language in an indian language, national identity is indian muslim identity etc everything is based on being 'desi'. This becomes even more obvious when you step out of pakistan where pakistani = indian, this is the common view by even other pakistanis abroad and you will stick out as not 'true pakistani' if you're not into the typical indian/desi/hindi based culture. hell most indians ive met dont even know pashto speakers exist in pakistan because thats the image pakistan and pakistanis propogate that we are one homogenous group of north indian muslim origin.

About national interests vs ethnic interests if you havent noticed already we get screwed pretty often in favor of national interests so its no wonder some people would want to focus more on their own well being, and yes i know pashtuns in afghanistan arent in a better position (except culturally)

[Markhor]

Well you can be but like shapur pointed out its very difficult to maintain our identity in pakistan for the long run when everything is so india centric. the history we are taught is of india, natioanl language in an indian language, national identity is indian muslim identity etc everything is based on being 'desi'. This becomes even more obvious when you step out of pakistan where pakistani = indian, this is the common view by even other pakistanis abroad and you will stick out as not 'true pakistani' if you're not into the typical indian/desi/hindi based culture. hell most indians ive met dont even know pashto speakers exist in pakistan because thats the image pakistan and pakistanis propogate that we are one homogenous group of north indian muslim origin.

About national interests vs ethnic interests if you havent noticed already we get screwed pretty often in favor of national interests so its no wonder some people would want to focus more on their own well being, and yes i know pashtuns in afghanistan arent in a better position (except culturally)

Well the reason Afghanistan has been at constant war since 40 years is nobody seems to go along with each other . That is exactly the reason they are under occupation right now because they have no singular voice . Everybody is trying to step on each other and there is a power struggle between different ethnicities to rule the country and the end result is one big mess .

Punjab constitutes almost 55-60 % of the population while Karachi is the economic workhorse with majority Urdu speakers so its only natural for people to assume that .