Border clash

[Samandri]

Such comparisons,like you did between ANA and Pakistan army, are childish and do not carry much value
How can you say so confidently that ANA has more courage than Pakistani soldiers?
I am sure ANA soldiers are brave ,Afghans as a whole are very,very courageous but you have not seen or met Pakistani soldiers.They are dauntless,patriotic to the highest level and have an unbelievable willingness for sacrifice , be that loss of life or limb.
Please don't fall into the trap of believing that Pakistan army is majority Punjabi,and Punjabis are cowards.That is very far from the truth.
As a whole , the courage of Pashtun people is legendary , but our army has lionhearted men in its ranks.

"You have not seen or met Pakistani soldiers".....actually i have. They are any thing but fearless, dauntless and brave. I recognize that they are professional and well-trained soldiers , and have strong army culture and legacy of Angraiz since its foundation in East India company times. But lets be honest they were sweating and wetting their paints during this whole war against TTP. I have seen the Punjabi soldiers nervous and trigger-happy in Pakhtunkhwa and not a single instance of heroic deed from them like KP police. They have killed civilians on many instances just to make sure that they are not killed in a surprise attack. Fearing death, they always avoided gun battles with Taliban and always called for air force and gunship helicopters without caring that indiscriminate bombing and shelling would cause loss of innocent civilian lives.....An Indian colonel or Major is more brave than a Pakistani army officer and sipahi......every time Mujahideen infiltrates into a Kashmiri village, Indian army officer (as high as colonel rank) would lead the team and would tackle the militants with merely gun battle, getting himself killed in the process some times......not needing air force or artillery or gunships to deal with militants carrying Ak47....on the other hand Pakistan army in their battles with TTP was behaving as if they were fighting with Soviet Union....the war against TTP dragged on, because they would retreat every time whenever they would suffer some losses at the hands of Taliban. They are soldiers, but they have not joined army to die in the battlefield , they have joined it to bring monthly salary to his wife.

[marwat]

"You have not seen or met Pakistani soldiers".....actually i have. They are any thing but fearless, dauntless and brave. I recognize that they are professional and well-trained soldiers , and have strong army culture and legacy of Angraiz since its foundation in East India company times. But lets be honest they were sweating and wetting their paints during this whole war against TTP. I have seen the Punjabi soldiers nervous and trigger-happy in Pakhtunkhwa and not a single instance of heroic deed from them like KP police. They have killed civilians on many instances just to make sure that they are not killed in a surprise attack. Fearing death, they always avoided gun battles with Taliban and always called for air force and gunship helicopters without caring that indiscriminate bombing and shelling would cause loss of innocent civilian lives.....An Indian colonel or Major is more brave than a Pakistani army officer and sipahi......every time Mujahideen infiltrates into a Kashmiri village, Indian army officer (as high as colonel rank) would lead the team and would tackle the militants with merely gun battle, getting himself killed in the process some times......not needing air force or artillery or gunships to deal with militants carrying Ak47....on the other hand Pakistan army in their battles with TTP was behaving as if they were fighting with Soviet Union....the war against TTP dragged on, because they would retreat every time whenever they would suffer some losses at the hands of Taliban. They are soldiers, but they have not joined army to die in the battlefield , they have joined it to bring monthly salary to his wife.

similarly the commissioned level officer don't join the army to get killed or do jihad, but just to get perks and privileges associated with the armed forces of pakistan, and be considered an elite in a society. no partriotic son of bitch want to die, patriotism offer nothing after death

[Charsi Malang]

"You have not seen or met Pakistani soldiers".....actually i have. They are any thing but fearless, dauntless and brave. I recognize that they are professional and well-trained soldiers , and have strong army culture and legacy of Angraiz since its foundation in East India company times. But lets be honest they were sweating and wetting their paints during this whole war against TTP. I have seen the Punjabi soldiers nervous and trigger-happy in Pakhtunkhwa and not a single instance of heroic deed from them like KP police. They have killed civilians on many instances just to make sure that they are not killed in a surprise attack. Fearing death, they always avoided gun battles with Taliban and always called for air force and gunship helicopters without caring that indiscriminate bombing and shelling would cause loss of innocent civilian lives.....An Indian colonel or Major is more brave than a Pakistani army officer and sipahi......every time Mujahideen infiltrates into a Kashmiri village, Indian army officer (as high as colonel rank) would lead the team and would tackle the militants with merely gun battle, getting himself killed in the process some times......not needing air force or artillery or gunships to deal with militants carrying Ak47....on the other hand Pakistan army in their battles with TTP was behaving as if they were fighting with Soviet Union....the war against TTP dragged on, because they would retreat every time whenever they would suffer some losses at the hands of Taliban. They are soldiers, but they have not joined army to die in the battlefield , they have joined it to bring monthly salary to his wife.

Very interesting. Joining the army in Pakistan not only brings you a consistent salary for your family, but it also gives you prestige in society and other. Benefits such as accommodation, servants and so on and so forth. It's the most stable profession to go into at the moment in Pakistan so I've heard, as your whole family benefits from it. If you go up in the ranks then it's even better. The army culture is very strong in Pakistan-especially the older generation.

It's hilarious when you meet someone in their 60s or over who have achieved a high rank in the army because when they speak English they mimic old school, stiff upper liver English people. Even more hilarious when they relive their time, for example if they were posted in "Peshaawaaaaar". Jolly good old chaps!

I've come across a lot of soldiers back home. I remember I was with my cousin driving through Darra Adam Khel and we were stopped by an extremely thin soldier. He asked my cousin his profession and my cousin told him he was a doctor. The soldier was a Punjabi and told my cousin of some health problems he had related to diet and asked my cousin to write him some medicines. My cousin obliged and the soldier was grateful. My cousin said a lot of Punjabi soldiers are posted in the tribal areas and suffer huge amounts of stress and find it difficult to cope.

Most Pakistani soldiers I have met are complete twats, ugly, rude, and stupid.. I've had many an argument with them during my short visits back home.

[Charsi Malang]

Balochs have historically been inclusive as they needed numbers against their enemies (for the most part much numerous Pashtuns were their enemies or dynasties of Sindh). They readily welcomed and absorbed Brahuis, Pashtuns, Jats etc and declared them Balochs for political purposes. A read of their history reveals that they were free from inter-tribal wars , only few cases of inter-tribal wars in their history e.g 30 years Lashari-Rind war which would have been very unnoticeable in Pashtun history which is ridden with inter-tribal wars. Historically Balochs and Brahuis ganged up on small Pashtun tribes on fringes while no other Pashtun tribe in the vicinity came to their rescue. In fact there were cases in which weakened Pashtun tribe after war with Baloch-Brahui alliance, got attacked by other predatory Pashtun tribes in the vicinity. There has never been a case of Baloch tribe forming alliance with a Pashtun tribe to wage war against fellow Baloch tribe but there have been many cases in which a Pashtun tribe joined hands with Balochs to maul another Pashtun tribe.....another point to consider is that number of Pashtun clans joined the banners of Balochs and got balochized, but not a single Baloch tribe has been Pashtunized.

Baloch society is not Mullah-ridden and they are generally subservient to their own Sardars so there is an order to their society , thus they are better organized and united than Pashtuns who have had always issues with people trying to rule over them locally or on higher level.

The British described the Baluch as having fought the best against them in all their engagements on the frontier and beyond-even better than Afghan/Pashtuns. They described them as "obstinately brave"

[Samandri]

The Pakistani army soldiers have calmed down nowadays as attacks on them have almost ceased but back then when Taliban insurgency was at peak and they were sustaining losses , the soldiers posted in FATA and KP were very edgy in their interactions with local civilians.

[Samandri]

The British described the Baluch as having fought the best against them in all their engagements on the frontier and beyond-even better than Afghan/Pashtuns. They described them as "obstinately brave"

Marris and Bugtis were raiders so they were bound to come into confrontations with British but from what i have read they were not considered as formidable as Pashtun tribes by the British .......The fact of matter is the Balochs as a whole were easily ruled and managed by British and with the exception of Marri-Bugti, they were not anti-British . Moreover British feared and despised the Mullahs, "mad faqeers" and "Ghazis" of Pashtun belt who were attacking and insulting them as Kafirs. British had trouble dealing with what they were calling "fanatics" and "Ghazis" who were attacking them on religious grounds and could not be bought. Every attempt to buy Faqir of Ipi failed, this they admit in their intelligence reports.

The policy makers of British imperialism observed the following main differences between the Pashtun and Baloch

[ZarakDurrani606]

Very interesting. Joining the army in Pakistan not only brings you a consistent salary for your family, but it also gives you prestige in society and other. Benefits such as accommodation, servants and so on and so forth. It's the most stable profession to go into at the moment in Pakistan so I've heard, as your whole family benefits from it. If you go up in the ranks then it's even better. The army culture is very strong in Pakistan-especially the older generation.

It's hilarious when you meet someone in their 60s or over who have achieved a high rank in the army because when they speak English they mimic old school, stiff upper liver English people. Even more hilarious when they relive their time, for example if they were posted in "Peshaawaaaaar". Jolly good old chaps!

I've come across a lot of soldiers back home. I remember I was with my cousin driving through Darra Adam Khel and we were stopped by an extremely thin soldier. He asked my cousin his profession and my cousin told him he was a doctor. The soldier was a Punjabi and told my cousin of some health problems he had related to diet and asked my cousin to write him some medicines. My cousin obliged and the soldier was grateful. My cousin said a lot of Punjabi soldiers are posted in the tribal areas and suffer huge amounts of stress and find it difficult to cope.

Most Pakistani soldiers I have met are complete twats, ugly, rude, and stupid.. I've had many an argument with them during my short visits back home.

Pakhair, astute observations.

[Adam]

, but our army has lionhearted men in its ranks.

Your lion heart army surrended in 13 days in 1971.

[Qami]

Balochs have historically been inclusive as they needed numbers against their enemies (for the most part much numerous Pashtuns were their enemies or dynasties of Sindh). They readily welcomed and absorbed Brahuis, Pashtuns, Jats etc and declared them Balochs for political purposes. A read of their history reveals that they were free from inter-tribal wars , only few cases of inter-tribal wars in their history e.g 30 years Lashari-Rind war which would have been very unnoticeable in Pashtun history which is ridden with inter-tribal wars. Historically Balochs and Brahuis ganged up on small Pashtun tribes on fringes while no other Pashtun tribe in the vicinity came to their rescue. In fact there were cases in which weakened Pashtun tribe after war with Baloch-Brahui alliance, got attacked by other predatory Pashtun tribes in the vicinity. There has never been a case of Baloch tribe forming alliance with a Pashtun tribe to wage war against fellow Baloch tribe but there have been many cases in which a Pashtun tribe joined hands with Balochs to maul another Pashtun tribe.....another point to consider is that number of Pashtun clans joined the banners of Balochs and got balochized, but not a single Baloch tribe has been Pashtunized.

Baloch society is not Mullah-ridden and they are generally subservient to their own Sardars so there is an order to their society , thus they are better organized and united than Pashtuns who have had always issues with people trying to rule over them locally or on higher level.

Dear Samandri! First thank You for your detailed comment. I know mostly this probleatic, although superficially. A member of Iranists from Yerevan university, who worked on Baloch has written even an article on how several Pashtuns got included in the Baloch nation and on its inclusiveness.
The thing is that that is exactly what Pashtuns should learn, to at least be protective towards their own people. Maybe I am wrong, but my impression is that tribal differences didn't get managed in a good way in the past and brought so much grief to your people. Add the imported ideologies (communism (even in some versions), democratism, arabo-wahabism, pakistanism....) that made people more opponents to their own than to the foreign opponents of Pashtuns.

By the way, as You mentioned Brahuis, I always wonder on their relation to the Baloch, they seem to me slowly to melt with the Baloch nation.

[Samandri]

By the way, as You mentioned Brahuis, I always wonder on their relation to the Baloch, they seem to me slowly to melt with the Baloch nation.

True, its because of the efforts of the Khans of Kalat .......It was series of wars with Panni tribe of Sibi in second half of 17th century and wars with Kalhoras in early 17th century which cemented the alliance between Brahuis and Balochs. Brahui chiefs became champions and representatives of Baloch nation in 18th century. Mir Nasir Khan , their greatest leader, gave every kind of support to Marri Balochs in their wars with small Pashtun tribes (Hasnis, Lunis etc) even though it was norm that rulers of his stature in this belt would not interfere in inter-tribal wars by taking a side. The Panni-Kalat wars and Kalhora-Kalat wars seeded the concept of Baloch-Barhui oneness and it was matured by Mir Naseer Khan

[toughpashtun]

"You have not seen or met Pakistani soldiers".....actually i have. They are any thing but fearless, dauntless and brave. I recognize that they are professional and well-trained soldiers , and have strong army culture and legacy of Angraiz since its foundation in East India company times. But lets be honest they were sweating and wetting their paints during this whole war against TTP. I have seen the Punjabi soldiers nervous and trigger-happy in Pakhtunkhwa and not a single instance of heroic deed from them like KP police. They have killed civilians on many instances just to make sure that they are not killed in a surprise attack. Fearing death, they always avoided gun battles with Taliban and always called for air force and gunship helicopters without caring that indiscriminate bombing and shelling would cause loss of innocent civilian lives.....An Indian colonel or Major is more brave than a Pakistani army officer and sipahi......every time Mujahideen infiltrates into a Kashmiri village, Indian army officer (as high as colonel rank) would lead the team and would tackle the militants with merely gun battle, getting himself killed in the process some times......not needing air force or artillery or gunships to deal with militants carrying Ak47....on the other hand Pakistan army in their battles with TTP was behaving as if they were fighting with Soviet Union....the war against TTP dragged on, because they would retreat every time whenever they would suffer some losses at the hands of Taliban. They are soldiers, but they have not joined army to die in the battlefield , they have joined it to bring monthly salary to his wife.

You are speaking as if you were on the frontlines of Swat,Dir,FATA , which I am sure was not the case.
Air power has its own role , but without the army engaging in direct confrontation and ground battles , today all these regions would still be under TTP control.

Also; the reason the war against TTP was lengthened was because our leadership(uniformed and non-uniformed) did not take timely action in some cases.It was not because our soldiers showed lack of resolve to fight.
Swat,Dir and Buner were cleared in a span of less than two months when operation was launched in 2009. Same year, army went in to S.Waziristan and gained control soon after.

N.Waziristan operation was delayed to 2014,and is successful too.
All other regions like Mohmand,Khyber,Bajaur have been wiped clean off the militants by virtue of army ops and fighting face to face.
The jazba of our jawans and officers in all wars against India has been very praiseworthy.
TTP is not only in tribal areas , they have networks in cities also and the lethargic attitude of our concerned agencies only picks up pace temporarily after a major terrorist incident.Which is why they have not been annihilated completely.

[toughpashtun]

Your lion heart army surrended in 13 days in 1971.

That was because of wrong decisions by political and mil leadership , not because of any 'lacking' on part of the soldiers actually fighting on the ground.

[toughpashtun]

similarly the commissioned level officer don't join the army to get killed or do jihad, but just to get perks and privileges associated with the armed forces of pakistan, and be considered an elite in a society. no partriotic son of bitch want to die, patriotism offer nothing after death

Perks and privilages might be an incentive , but by that standard , do you think any army in the world can be considered brave?

[Firdousi]

Lol what??!!! Pashtuns hostile??? Most Pashtuns here are the least privileged pal let alone be "hostile"....... ain't nobody got time for hostility. Why should WE (Pashtuns) be hostile towards you? Are you counting fringe groups or proxies as our representatives? You're sorely mistaken pal, it'd help of you had a less tajikam influenced view of things. Things are'nt as they seem, and we certainly are'mt an obseqious lot. And yes about the contemporary problems..... they are a result of british intervention something called "divide and rule". It's what happens in Afghanistan as well and then on to us, across the line (another brit construct).

Thats wishful thinking, "pal". I have never been to Pakistan but I have met plenty of Paki Pashtuns in the GCC and I know very well how hostile and brainwashed Pathans are toward my country.

Modern Brits can't even rule themselves let alone Muslims.

[toughpashtun]

Pak-Afghan tension: Border firing ends as Afghan military admits mistake

Pak-Afghan tension: Border firing ends as Afghan military admits mistake - Kashmir Narrator

I honestly don't know how authentic that is.
My point being that one should not jump to conclusions as to who is at fault unless there is concrete evidence.
Some of you were putting up Afghan sources claiming Pak was the culprit.