Arabic should become the single official national language in all muslim countries

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Hate to hurt people's religion sentiment as I have nothing for or against religion. In order to be a Muslim, first need an Arabic name, have to practice Arabic culture, learn Arabic to communicate with your creator. If this is not cultural imperialism then what it is?

But the question is how do you define Arabic culture in the first place? What would be the characteristic traits that would make something "their" culture as opposed to "Islam". Culture can't simply be language because then You'd be following "Angrez" culture simply by speaking English. Does the fact that Modern Science uses terms from Latin and Greek imply that Science is a vassal for Greco-Roman culture?

What I'm suggesting here is the reason you seem to be claiming Cultural Imperiaiism by Arabs is based on the idea that Arabic is a Liturgical Language. Every religion has a standard Liturgical language. If Pashtuns converted to Zoroastrianism tomorrow to Learn the Gathas they'd have to learn Avestan; they would not be able to perform the rites of the "Zardushti" religion in Pashto.

Likewise Greek/Latin became in a metaphoric sense "Liturgical" to Modern Science; while they don't need to study Greek/Latin as a whole they have to understand the meanings of the terms which are derived from Greek/Latin. How Sociologists define Cultural Imperialism is much more dynamic and broader than language.

You speak in terms which are incredibly vague; You can't have Cultural Imperialism unless you can clearly define what it is.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Here’s yet another genuine savage from the annals of third world backwardness, pathetically impressing upon us that his murderous culture by cursing in order to make a point. The simple fact this thread suggest we Ajam abandon our language, culture and identity on behalf of Arabic, because Arabic’s superiority as scared language, the language that god speaks and the language in which the inhabitant of paradise converse proves the special status accorded to Arabs by Islam. Just as the non-Arab people of Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt were totally Arabized--suggest a good mulism=one who speak Arabic.
The reason for Ajam “administrative leadership and military leadership” has more to do with intra Arab tribal warfare with resulted in death of 3 caliphate and grandson of prophet and enlistment of Turks in army. While in initial expansion of Islam in century after prophet, Islamic was brought to vast new territories by armies consisting of Arabs tribal units and an ethnic divided between the conquerors and the conquered. Islam as associated with being Arab and non-Arab Muslims both convert and their dependents become known as Mawali(clients) in most cases, this term was literal: slave who had been captured. In the conquest converted and were subsequently liberated by their Arab masters or converts who accepted Islam at the hands of an Arab Muslims become formal clients of Arab tribes and used the tribal gentilics as part of their own names. Even to this day and age some Islamic scholar believes that the caliph had to be member of Quraysh tribes.

The problem I have with this argument is that many of your suggestions here which you conflate together come off sounding historically anachronistic.

[Azmal]

Post your sources, i need to verify this for myself. As far as i know Dari is a fairly new word and was used mostly by Pashtuns since Pashto lacks the F letter. Not that i am denouncing your source but it would be something i would expect to find at that crackpot website called "Tajikam" desperately trying to align themselves with Persians.

If you really think Farsi comes from anywhere other then Iran then your smoking too much kush.

Jee, the sources are there...can't you read?


Meisami's Dari the lanuage of Shahnama(Meisami 1995:276)


Here a link to google books.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Lh...276%29&f=false

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Pashtuns rarely use the word "Dari" in reference to Farsi..... Dari refers to the court language the reason the word "Dari" came into use is because Kings would conduct their courts in Farsi.

[Azmal]

But the question is how do you define Arabic culture in the first place? What would be the characteristic traits that would make something "their" culture as opposed to "Islam". Culture can't simply be language because then You'd be following "Angrez" culture simply by speaking English. Does the fact that Modern Science uses terms from Latin and Greek imply that Science is a vassal for Greco-Roman culture?

What I'm suggesting here is the reason you seem to be claiming Cultural Imperiaiism by Arabs is based on the idea that Arabic is a Liturgical Language. Every religion has a standard Liturgical language. If Pashtuns converted to Zoroastrianism tomorrow to Learn the Gathas they'd have to learn Avestan; they would not be able to perform the rites of the "Zardushti" religion in Pashto.

Likewise Greek/Latin became in a metaphoric sense "Liturgical" to Modern Science; while they don't need to study Greek/Latin as a whole they have to understand the meanings of the terms which are derived from Greek/Latin. How Sociologists define Cultural Imperialism is much more dynamic and broader than language.

You speak in terms which are incredibly vague; You can't have Cultural Imperialism unless you can clearly define what it is.

I agree the term cultural imperialism is a generic concept, a hybrid of the term that bring together two words which are themselves extremely complex and problematic in an attempt to prove a covering concept. Nonetheless in here I simply mean the use of religion power to exalt and spread the values and habits of a foreign culture at the expanse of native culture.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Azmal, don't even bother with Kushan; he's your typical poser, who hypes up his ignorance as knowledge, things that are known to anyone who actually seriously reads, he gets wrong. The kid is a total airhead, he can't even debate with sources or references. And he tries to disparage people who actually attempted honest research on the topics they discuss.

[Azmal]

The problem I have with this argument is that many of your suggestions here which you conflate together come off sounding historically anachronistic.

How so? Do elaborate.

[Kushan Prince]

Jee, the sources are there...can't you read?


Meisami's Dari the lanuage of Shahnama(Meisami 1995:276)


Here a link to google books.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Lh...276%29&f=false

Thanks, it seems legit. But the Nezami's work itself was re-written by 2 different writers since the use of words like "this is not correct in OUR VIEW" meaning its a clash of POV's.

Anyways after a few minutes of googling i found out the word "Dari"basically translates into "court language:" which was basically farsi. And this is Encyclopida Iranica's view point on Dari:

The passage thus suggests that darī was actually a form of Persian, the common language of Persia. If that conclusion is correct, what was the relationship between pārsī and darī, and how did the latter term come to be applied specifically to literary New Persian at the time of its emergence?

On the basis of Moqaddasī’s report (p. 335) that darī was the chancery language in Bukhara, it has been thought that it was from the beginning a kind of formal Persian. Ḵānlarī (pp. 280-81) put forth the hypothesis that darī had been an official and administrative language of the Sasanian court, had become established in the east by officials of the Sasanian kingdom, and had thus became the chancery language of Khorasan.

Basically the Sasanian's spread the Farsi/Dari to the east as a court language. Either way, Tajiks are persianized.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

I agree the term cultural imperialism is a generic concept, a hybrid of the term that bring together two words which are themselves extremely complex and problematic in an attempt to prove a covering concept. Nonetheless in here I simply mean the use of religion power to exalt and spread the values and habits of a foreign culture at the expanse of native culture.

well see that's where my problem is; when Islam rose; it ran contrary to the prevailing cultural norms of the Arabs; ....so when you say "spread the values and habits of a foreign culture". How could that be when the premise contradicts the conclusion?

Do you mean by "foreign" as in different? Because in that case, It couldn't be promoting Arab cultural imperialism; because at that stage in time It was a revolt against Arab culture. IT would have been it's own unique "Islamic" culture distinct from Arab or any other culture.

[Azmal]

Thanks, it seems legit. But the Nezami's work itself was re-written by 2 different writers since the use of words like "this is not correct in OUR VIEW" meaning its a clash of POV's.

Anyways after a few minutes of googling i found out the word "Dari"basically translates into "court language:" which was basically farsi. And this is Encyclopida Iranica's view point on Dari:



Basically the Sasanian's spread the Farsi/Dari to the east as a court language. Either way, Tajiks are persianized.

Wait... how does it fit on you claim that Dari was developed by Khalqis. lol

There is 3 stage of Persian language in history, The Old, Middle and New Persian. However, New Persian aka Dari has taken many words from Arabic , as opposed to Middle Persian which was influenced, to a lesser degree, by Aramiac. For over 200 years Arabic was language of region, with coming to power of Safaris Dari was developed in region of north western Afghanistan with Arabic letter and 50% Arabic words.

[Kushan Prince]

Wait... how does it fit on you claim that Dari was developed by Khalqis. lol

There is 3 stage of Persian language in history, The Old, Middle and New Persian. However, New Persian aka Dari has taken many words from Arabic , as opposed to Middle Persian which was influenced, to a lesser degree, by Aramiac. For over 200 years Arabic was language of region, with coming to power of Safaris Dari was developed in region of north western Afghanistan with Arabic letter and 50% Arabic words.

Wait... how does it fit on you claim that Dari was developed by Khalqis. lol

I take that back, Khalqis just changed the name to Dari. Even in Afghanistan, many people still call it "Farsi" as opposed to Dari. The name Dari was changed for political reasons and to make Afghan Farsi more unique.

The Old, Middle and New Persian. [/FONT][/COLOR][FONT=Verdana]However, New Persian aka Dari has taken many words from Arabic , as opposed to Middle Persian which was influenced, to a lesser degree, by Aramiac. For over 200 years Arabic was language of region, with coming to power of Safaris Dari was developed in region of north western Afghanistan with Arabic letter and 50% Arabic words.

A lot of languages have been influnced by other languages, like Pashto being influenced by Arabic and Urdu. Dari is no different, it contains a lot of words from Pashto as well. I don't agree that Dari was developed in Afghanistan, it was the chancery language of Iran that made its way into Bukhara and finally into Afghanistan by the way of migration of Persian speakers. I feel like you are just trying to give Tajiks false credit to Farsi.

And Arabic was never the official language of Iran, and there is no proof of it. It wouldn't make sense for a language that was the lingua franca of a nation for 200 years to suddely revert back to its original language in a short amount of time.

[Azmal]

well see that's where my problem is; when Islam rose; it ran contrary to the prevailing cultural norms of the Arabs; ....so when you say "spread the values and habits of a foreign culture". How could that be when the premise contradicts the conclusion?

Do you mean by "foreign" as in different? Because in that case, It couldn't be promoting Arab cultural imperialism; because at that stage in time It was a revolt against Arab culture. IT would have been it's own unique "Islamic" culture distinct from Arab or any other culture.

Qurhan is simply intended to Arab cultural practice, is a guideline to improve Arab's cultural norms. A good example is burying daughter alive which did not exist anywhere else. Prophet Mohammad was an Arab by blood, language and culture. Islam simply improved Arab’s culture, transformed Arabs from primitive tribes into an imposing power. Islam did not erased culture and ID of Arabs as it have had done to Syrians, Egyptians, Palestinian, and Lebanese.

[Azmal]

I take that back, Khalqis just changed the name to Dari. Even in Afghanistan, many people still call it "Farsi" as opposed to Dari. The name Dari was changed for political reasons and to make Afghan Farsi more unique.



A lot of languages have been influnced by other languages, like Pashto being influenced by Arabic and Urdu. Dari is no different, it contains a lot of words from Pashto as well. I don't agree that Dari was developed in Afghanistan, it was the chancery language of Iran that made its way into Bukhara and finally into Afghanistan by the way of migration of Persian speakers. I feel like you are just trying to give Tajiks false credit to Farsi.

And Arabic was never the official language of Iran, and there is no proof of it. It wouldn't make sense for a language that was the lingua franca of a nation for 200 years to suddely revert back to its original language in a short amount of time.

whaaaat Urdu? Ahahha Try again, this claim is worst then claiming Dari was developed by Khalqis in 1962.

[Kushan Prince]

whaaaat Urdu? Ahahha Try again, this claim is worst then claiming Dari was developed by Khalqis in 1962.

Are you denying Pekhwari Pashto is influenced by Urdu? What's funny is you trying to pin point the origins of Farsi to Afghanistan lol.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Qurhan is simply intended to Arab cultural practice, is a guideline to improve Arab's cultural norms. A good example is burying daughter alive which did not exist anywhere else. Prophet Mohammad was an Arab by blood, language and culture. Islam simply improved Arab’s culture, transformed Arabs from primitive tribes into an imposing power. Islam did not erased culture and ID of Arabs as it have had done to Syrians, Egyptians, Palestinian, and Lebanese.

Whatever the case is; your argument here would negate your previous suggestion that Islam was an instrument to promote Arab cultural values, customs and mores. If you admit that Islam aimed to improve Arab cultural practices because Arab culture had toxic customs; then this would demonstrate that Islam is not an instrument for Arab cultural norms and practices. Also the burying of daughters is one issue that had become obsolete by the time Islam established control of the Arabian peninsula; and it wasn't even stressed after Islam spread outwards. It wouldn't suffice to suggest that Islam was only relevant to the Arabs using only one example, because by that time, the practice had ceased.

You're kind of arguing between two narratives here. The Arabization of the Levant happened much more gradually. Are you aware of the Nabatean and Ghassanid Arabs who were inhabiting Palestine , Syria and Lebanon prior to Islam? They were already speaking Arabic. What happened here wasn't a cultural imperialism, because the Non-Arabs who adopted Arabic did so because their previous languages simply lost usage and became antiquated.

And you're actually incorrect, according to many Narrators and Historians, Muhammad was "Adnani" which means his ancestors came from Iraq and were not originally Arab but adopted Arabic when they came to the Arabian Peninsula.

This is what happened with the Predcessor languages of Pashto too. Pashto didn't exist 5000 years ago. What existed were Soghdian, Parthian and Avestan (not in that order of course) ...Pashto just evolved from other regional languages and people began adopting it. That is just how languages transition.