Pakistan: Haqqani Militant Network Has Ties With Government, Ambassador

[ScimitarXEdge]

good riddance; so beghairat they need to make a new ID to hide who they are, when everyone knows who it is.

[khushal]

Strawman, I never said the Taliban are capable of anything except causing instability. But that's the problem they murder more Muslims than invaders; which is why they have to go.

Of course people lien during a war; the problem I have is you use the "they are lying" card when it doesn't ideologically serve the interests of the Taliban

This is what you have said

I can flip your argument around on you; if the Pashtuns were rebelling then this war would have been won 8 years ago.

They are rebelling and the reason the US is not successful in its quest is because the Pashtuns tribal autonomous nature has not been overcome by NATO. It is the obsticle not the Taliban.
you have said that the Afghan official has no motive to lie in war, don't make me find the quote. People lie during war because it does not serve the ideological interests of the enemy whether its the Taliban, NATO, or the Afghan Government. Everyone lies during war. War itself is a lie.

I have yet to see you openly criticiz the Taliban vociferously; if you have please point it out.

The occupation forces are responsible for the security of the occupying party and this is according to the geneva convention. I have criticized the Taliban before their departure. Whatever mistakes are made, criticism has to go to the legitimate party.

There are know known Pakistanis in the Afghan Government unless you can point to people with Pakistani citizenship working for the Government.

There are many Pakistani citizens who are translators and engineers working in Afghanistan for the Afghan government and NATO as well.

Your questions are absolutely irrelevant nonsense; and have been debunked by infinite regression. How many troops there are is inconsequential. Soviets had about 115,000 plus 55,000 commie afghans on their side. Yet they suffered millions in destroyed equipment and lost several times the current U.S. casualties in 8 years. If You want to play trial by numbers. Then that right there incriminates the Taliban cause as some tribal movement, because we all know that Pashtuns were more widespreadly fighting the Soviets. If the tribals were involved now then we'd see NATO blood flowing like rivers. Yet Taliban apologists only have a fallen chinook to glee over and numerous make believe stories and less than 5000 casualties in 10 years.
Even if we factor in the military inferiority factor the impact against NATO should have been much stronger than what it is. It should be on the scale of Soviets if your tribal argument were even remotely true.

during the 80's the western world was backing the Majahadeen with the best weapons against the soviets and the west wanted to prove to the soviets that their own weaponry was far superior, the reason that they just slaughtered the Iraqis(who used Soviet weapons) with no mercy in 91 was to prove to the Soviets what they will face if they decide to go head to head with the Americans . Today no one supports the resistance and are using weapons from the early 1900's against a much more smarter and more technologicaly advanced enemy. forget "300," This is the biggest upset in history.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/whats-inside-a-taliban-gun-locker/

so measuring beard length was tribal law? banning attan and music was tribal law? making people go to a jama'at to pray was tribal law?

in the talibans perception, beard length, and music ban was a sign of piousness. they blamed all the chaos in afghanistan on the beardless commies and nationalists who danced all liquored up listening to music.
the "parda" women seclusion, banning girls from going to school, women venturing out with male relatives only, making people to go to the masjid and others is basically what is happening in the villages and they wanted to bring this village life into the cities.

I know Taliban know nothing about Shari'ah; their idea of Shari'ah is corrupted and based on ignorant Indian Deobandi dogmatism. but their agenda was to perpetuate that narrative of Deobandi Shari'ah over the tribal laws.

No, you are wrong. Much of what the Taliban practiced was parallel to pashtunwali. It makes more sense that they were bringing in some Wahabi practices because of the money pouring in from rich Saudis.

Whatever support means, they expect the Government to take care of them, and they still believe in a Government over the Taliban. The statistics regarding the Government being unable to provide them security is precisely because the Taliban threaten their security,

The tribes will reject the afghan government authority whether the Talibans exist or not. Most tribesmen don't have no idea of what nation is or what government is. Most tribesmen think that Karzai is a "batshah." They think Obama is a "batshah" of America. The idea of Presidents, prime ministers, nationalism is foreign to them.

It is very difficult to convince people that Afghans will support such a government who cant defend itself against its own people who are trying to overthrow them. they cant even attract anyone to their national army because no one believes in the idea of nation. Only the village rejects like these ones here on this video who have no where else to go join the foreign idea of nation.
The Hashish Army - Afghan National Army (ANA) - YouTube

yeah that's it, sweep any evidence that thwarts your narrative. Uzbeks + Tajiks + theTaliban = Taliban not a tribal Pashtun movement.
your argument fails ....and pretending it's negligible that they have non-Pashtuns in an allegedly "tribal movement" is just short sighted logic on your part.

1 tajik + 1 uzbek + 25,000 pashtuns = pashtun movement
your short sightedness has made you insane.
even the struggle against the Soviets was manly Pashtun. the Soviets had the hardest time in pashtunland. They had bribed off Tajik Masood not to fight. Its very easy to bribe the feudal Tajiks because you bribe one person and he will deliver all the people at wholesale price. Why do you think the feudal Arabs are so easily succumbed. You bribe one person like Mubarak, and he will deliver 80 million egyptians for pennies on the dollar. The Arab spring has more to do with economics than a sudden awakening. The Arabs have always known exactly whats going on but because of their societies economic and social structure, they are too passive to do anything about it. People naturally become less passive once their lively hood is on the line. Wake up man, the financial crises is changing the world right before your eyes and you don't even realize whats driving it.

Please show us an example of you criticizing the Taliban as harshly as you have NATO. I have paid my dues, in fact most of your arguments are watered down versions of my arguments against secularists when I debated their pro-NATO arguments a few months ago.

take credit for me proving you wrong. that's classic. If the Taliban were truthfully just a handful of Paki slaves as you say they are, all they would be is a nuisance much like Pakistans "kashmiri movement" in India. They would not be capable of bringing a superpower to its knees. Something like this can only be done if the tribes have the same nature and this has been repeated throughout many centuries of history when there was no Taliban or ISI.

You're such an intellectually incompetent little kid
"I know you are but what am I"....seriously? grow up.
You're a Pakistani slave because you support the Taliban; stop supporting them and trying to legitimize them as some Pashtun tribal movement or even an Islamic movement. and you won't be deemed a Pakistani slave anymore.

Your Tajik slave mentality serves nothing but more instability and avoids the real problem. We must look at the real problem instead of scapegoating everything on the ISI. How is the ISI so powerful in Afghanistan when they have a hard time controlling its own stability. How is the ISI so powerful in Afghanistan that a super power has been brought to its knees and is begging for negotiations. This same ISI has forced this superpower in such desperation for a peace deal that it was willing to believe some shop keeper from Quetta was a rep. of the Taliban. And this same ISI is funded by this same super power. your argument makes sense only to irrational people that are into conspiracy theories.

if the Taliban's own Ambassador says they were trampling tribal law; now I do concede in "certain" instances they applied some warped tribal interpretations, that doesn't mean they went by "tribal law" since there's no tribal law that bans music. There's also no tribal law demanding woman's seclusion. That's pue deobandism.
Most of Afghanistan is rural, so villages were also imposed upon; the only women who didn't wear burqa were Kuchis , and Kuchiyan are only 3 Million those are generous estimates.. Burqa is not a Pashtun tribal custom.

Wrong again because you have never been to Afghanistan. Burqa is not a pashtun tribal custom but "parda" is. Woman seclusion is part of pashtunwali. Women in villages don't wear burqu, just a "tekri."
Burqa is mostly worn in the cities. Kuchian are historically not settled people, their culture are a bit different from the settled pashtuns, but they, like the village pashtuns, wear a tekri.

No they're creating the situation for people to feel like they can't find security with the government
Notice none of the Pastun tribes are speaking about tribal autonomy, but are saying they want safety and protection from their government.

Thats because they dont really have the same sense as you about what a government is. To them government is just an entity in Kabul and allegence is made in return for privilages and benefits but autonomy is never sacrificed. They are always independent. That's why Karzai is often referred as the mayor of Kabul and as long as the tribes exist, any power broker in Kabul whether Karzai or Obama himself always will be.

That's reality; even if we're against NATO imperialism and how it exploits people to serve their agenda. That is what Pashtuns want.

When it comes to Afghanistan, Your far from reality my friend. No offense. Because pashtun have never really detribalized and is the largest segmentary society in the world, it is because of this reason that imperialism has not really taken root. Its a large "ungoverned space" on this planet. Now dont intentionally ignore this source like you have all the rest.

http://www.nps.edu/programs/ccs/docs/pubs/06jun_groh.pdf

[graveyardofempires]

if there be a haqani network,there can also be a dadullah network.

[ScimitarXEdge]

This is what you have said
They are rebelling and the reason the US is not successful in its quest is because the Pashtuns tribal autonomous nature has not been overcome by NATO. It is the obsticle not the Taliban.

And I repeat myself again if the Ovewhelming Majority of Pashtuns were rebelling; we'd see TONS of More U.S./NATO Casualties

We'd see the government deposed already, we'd see U.S. soldiers back in america by now.

you have said that the Afghan official has no motive to lie in war, don't make me find the quote.

What I said was the Afghan Officials have no reason to live in context to certain discussions; this was based on logical deduction of available evidence.

People lie during war because it does not serve the ideological interests of the enemy whether its the Taliban, NATO, or the Afghan Government. Everyone lies during war. War itself is a lie.

That doesn't make everything automatically a lie though; If a Bush were to you that H2O is a Dipole molecule, would it make it a lie because he lied about WMD's in Iraq?

Logic doesn't work that way.

The occupation forces are responsible for the security of the occupying party and this is according to the geneva convention. I have criticized the Taliban before their departure. Whatever mistakes are made, criticism has to go to the legitimate party.

Criticism should go both ways; as long as Taliban claim to be Islamic Resstance.

There are many Pakistani citizens who are translators and engineers working in Afghanistan for the Afghan government and NATO as well.

Even if we accept that as true; their work is civilian work, not military; so using that example actually Supports my point and defeats yours.

The Tajik and Uzbeks who join the Taliban are military participants of the Taliban The as of yet unsupported claim of Pakistanis serving NATO just have service jobs.

The argument is a Fallacy of Equivocation which verifies the Non-Pashtun reality of the Taliban.

during the 80's the western world was backing the Majahadeen with the best weapons against the soviets and the west wanted to prove to the soviets that their own weaponry was far superior

Iran and Pakistan are both funneling sophisticated weapons to the Taliban; what's their excuse?

Oh I know, the majority of the population has turned against them for using Wahhabi Suicide bombing.

, the reason that they just slaughtered the Iraqis(who used Soviet weapons) with no mercy in 91 was to prove to the Soviets what they will face if they decide to go head to head with the Americans . Today no one supports the resistance and are using weapons from the early 1900's against a much more smarter and more technologicaly advanced enemy. forget "300," This is the biggest upset in history.

The Soviet Union was dismantled in 91, the Soviets had no ambitions anymore. Plus, the U.S. used air power to defeat the Iraqis, where as America is in a primarily land war. No excuses.

in the talibans perception, beard length, and music ban was a sign of piousness.

That's based on Deobandism. not Pashtun society

they blamed all the chaos in afghanistan on the beardless commies and nationalists who danced all liquored up listening to music.

the "parda" women seclusion, banning girls from going to school, women venturing out with male relatives only,

Which is not tribal law since in Villages women go travel to bazaar all the time and collect water at the river.

making people to go to the masjid and others is basically what is happening in the villages and they wanted to bring this village life into the cities.

Also not tribal custom but Ironically are edicts that are taught in Deobandi books. Coincidence?

No, you are wrong. Much of what the Taliban practiced was parallel to pashtunwali. It makes more sense that they were bringing in some Wahabi practices because of the money pouring in from rich Saudis.

Which nullifies your argument that the Taliban were pushing Pashtun tribal customs; Sure they mixed some aspects of Tribal customs; but they also enfused Wahhabism and Deobandism.

The tribes will reject the afghan government authority whether the Talibans exist or not. Most tribesmen don't have no idea of what nation is or what government is. Most tribesmen think that Karzai is a "batshah." They think Obama is a "batshah" of America. The idea of Presidents, prime ministers, nationalism is foreign to them.

If that's the case that's fine; but let the Tribes do it themselves; they don't need Pakistani ISI try to steer them. The Taliban presence is having a counter effect, it's making the Tribes join the Government. If the Taliban backed down the Tribes would have expelled NATO out already.

It is very difficult to convince people that Afghans will support such a government who cant defend itself against its own people who are trying to overthrow them. they cant even attract anyone to their national army because no one believes in the idea of nation. Only the village rejects like these ones here on this video who have no where else to go join the foreign idea of nation.

Really because the polls tell us otherwise

1 tajik + 1 uzbek + 25,000 pashtuns = pashtun movement

One Tajik and Uzbek who command thousands of uzbeks and tajiks + Taliban= Non-Pashtun Movement.

your short sightedness has made you insane.

Your denial and deliberate dishonest is the epitome of insanity

even the struggle against the Soviets was manly Pashtun. the Soviets had the hardest time in pashtunland. They had bribed off Tajik Masood not to fight. Its very easy to bribe the feudal Tajiks because you bribe one person and he will deliver all the people at wholesale price.

The Pro Communist Movement was also mainly Pashtun. Pashtuns were also bribed.

Why do you think the feudal Arabs are so easily succumbed.

Same reason why Pashtuns Tajiks and others can be bribed. People think of their own survival when push comes to shove.

You bribe one person like Mubarak, and he will deliver 80 million egyptians for pennies on the dollar. The Arab spring has more to do with economics than a sudden awakening.

Actually it's people realizing it's now or never.

The Arabs have always known exactly whats going on but because of their societies economic and social structure, they are too passive to do anything about it.

Pashtuns also knew exactly what''s going on, but they rather have corrupt charsis than suicide bombers

blame the Taliban for their techniques .....blame them for letting Saudi Wahhabis and Pakistanis guide them.

If they knew what resistance was they'd never perform a single suicide attack in a village.

People naturally become less passive once their lively hood is on the line. Wake up man, the financial crises is changing the world right before your eyes and you don't even realize whats driving it.

Which applies for Afghanistan too. Did you not read that the Taliban gets supporters by paying them?

take credit for me proving you wrong. that's classic. If the Taliban were truthfully just a handful of Paki slaves as you say they are, all they would be is a nuisance much like Pakistans "kashmiri movement" in India. They would not be capable of bringing a superpower to its knees. Something like this can only be done if the tribes have the same nature and this has been repeated throughout many centuries of history when there was no Taliban or ISI.

How ironic you mention it

NEW DELHI: In a new shift in tactics, Pakistan is planning to push as many as 60 "surrendered" Taliban into Jammu and Kashmir to become part of the "jihad" against India. The ISI is said to have offered the extremists the option of either going to jail or crossing the Line of Control.

Your Tajik slave mentality serves nothing but more instability and avoids the real problem.

Nah you're just flipping words around thinking the opposite holds true to try ad divert being called a Pakistani slave

you want to call me a Tajik slave? Whatever works for you; Tajiks are fellow Muslims and Afghans, Pakistanis are British servants.

We must look at the real problem instead of scapegoating everything on the ISI. How is the ISI so powerful in Afghanistan when they have a hard time controlling its own stability. How is the ISI so powerful in Afghanistan that a super power has been brought to its knees and is begging for negotiations. This same ISI has forced this superpower in such desperation for a peace deal that it was willing to believe some shop keeper from Quetta was a rep. of the Taliban. And this same ISI is funded by this same super power. your argument makes sense only to irrational people that are into conspiracy theories.

Well the real Problem is IMperialism; of course; but ISI serves that agenda nd that agenda is reflected by their use of the Taliban to push people into the arms of NATO.

The Taliban presence makes people believe they need NATO to save them.

Wrong again because you have never been to Afghanistan. Burqa is not a pashtun tribal custom but "parda" is. Woman seclusion is part of pashtunwali. Women in villages don't wear burqu, just a "tekri."
Burqa is mostly worn in the cities. Kuchian are historically not settled people, their culture are a bit different from the settled pashtuns, but they, like the village pashtuns, wear a tekri.

Parda is not even an Afghan word, Seclusion isnt apart of Pashtun culture; the Kuchis are the original Pashtuns, people were nomadic before they were settled. So the practice of female seclusion is a later innovation, which was not in Pashtun culture. Regardless even in the villages it wasn't Pashtun culture but came with Deobandism. Because even in old paintings you'd see chadari women in cities and villages.

Thats because they dont really have the same sense as you about what a government is. To them government is just an entity in Kabul and allegence is made in return for privilages and benefits but autonomy is never sacrificed. They are always independent. That's why Karzai is often referred as the mayor of Kabul and as long as the tribes exist, any power broker in Kabul whether Karzai or Obama himself always will be.

When it comes to Afghanistan, Your far from reality my friend. No offense. Because pashtun have never really detribalized and is the largest segmentary society in the world, it is because of this reason that imperialism has not really taken root. Its a large "ungoverned space" on this planet. Now dont intentionally ignore this source like you have all the rest.

http://www.nps.edu/programs/ccs/docs/pubs/06jun_groh.pdf

Reality? Well I am glad you use this source as legit because now I can use similar sources too.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/127030.pdf

Pashtuns have changed their approach since the 100 years ago.

[khushal]

And I repeat myself again if the Ovewhelming Majority of Pashtuns were rebelling; we'd see TONS of More U.S./NATO Casualties

We'd see the government deposed already, we'd see U.S. soldiers back in america by now.

Not necessarily, a powerful military in terms of firepower but more importantly in terms of economics can occupy any land on this planet as long as it is economically sustainable. This is why you see the industrial economies dictating to the inferior feudal and tribal economies.
The Soviets would still be in Afghanistan today if their economy could handle it. The only reason they withdrew from Afghanistan then followed the withdrawal from eastern Europe and finally from its colonies surrounding Russia because its economy could not sustain the occupation.
Also the real invasion of Afghanistan started about 2008, before then it was more of a special forces operation theater.

What I said was the Afghan Officials have no reason to live in context to certain discussions; this was based on logical deduction of available evidence.

That doesn't make everything automatically a lie though; If a Bush were to you that H2O is a Dipole molecule, would it make it a lie because he lied about WMD's in Iraq?

The afghan official was not talking about something that could be proven in a laboratory anywhere in the world but was talking about an event that had too much doubt and would serve their interest of sidelining their own incompetence.

Criticism should go both ways; as long as Taliban claim to be Islamic Resstance.

If the occupation wasn't incompetent, the Taliban would just be a nuisance. Hardly worth talking about.

Even if we accept that as true; their work is civilian work, not military; so using that example actually Supports my point and defeats yours.

It is NATOs policy to be a member of NATO to do military work that involves fighting but they do support work for the military which is the same.

The Tajik and Uzbeks who join the Taliban are military participants of the Taliban The as of yet unsupported claim of Pakistanis serving NATO just have service jobs.

The argument is a Fallacy of Equivocation which verifies the Non-Pashtun reality of the Taliban.

That is what I am saying. The resistance and the occupier are not equal. The resistance are fighting from an inferior position. One Tajik joining the Taliban does not make it a diverse group. The resistance is mainly from the pashtuns.

Iran and Pakistan are both funneling sophisticated weapons to the Taliban; what's their excuse?

Irans support for the Taliban is pure speculation and has not been proven or believable, they do however support the Afghan government publicly.


The Soviet Union was dismantled in 91, the Soviets had no ambitions anymore. Plus, the U.S. used air power to defeat the Iraqis, where as America is in a primarily land war. No excuses.

The Soviet Union dismantled at the end of 91 partly because they lost ambition and realized their own weaponry were far inferior to American weaponry and the Gulf War of 91 proved it to them. Saddam even aquired gps jammer technology from Russia in Iraq war of 93 just so russia can test its technology on the battle field.

Which is not tribal law since in Villages women go travel to bazaar all the time and collect water at the river.

You are wrong. Women in villages do not go to bazzars at all, not even with male relatives. Only in cities do. What are you talking about dude. Where are you getting this information from.

Which nullifies your argument that the Taliban were pushing Pashtun tribal customs; Sure they mixed some aspects of Tribal customs; but they also enfused Wahhabism and Deobandism.

Mostly tribal customs. The Northern people hated the Taliban for this. Triabl customs are foreign to the feudal northerners and feudal customs are foreign to the tribal southern and easterners. One of the Talibans problem was that they did not bring balance, but at the beginning they were different and the extremist elements started to take over when they invaded the northern areas.

If that's the case that's fine; but let the Tribes do it themselves; they don't need Pakistani ISI try to steer them. The Taliban presence is having a counter effect, it's making the Tribes join the Government. If the Taliban backed down the Tribes would have expelled NATO out already.

This is what I'm saying, The Taliban are taking advantage of the situation and the tribes need assistance and Aid. No one is there to aid them like the whole western world was in the 80's. There are tribesmen that clash with the Taliban and government forces but when it comes down to it, they will take the Taliban over the government because the Taliban respect triabl customs.
No where is this more evident than in kurram where Turi Tribesmen clash with the Taliban and government forces and how the Haqqanis take advantage of the situation..
Haqqani Network Influence in Kurram and its Implications for Afghanistan | Combating Terrorism Center at West Point

One Tajik and Uzbek who command thousands of uzbeks and tajiks + Taliban= Non-Pashtun Movement.

Thousands? come on, don't exaggerate.

The Pro Communist Movement was also mainly Pashtun. Pashtuns were also bribed.

Mostly detribalized pashtuns like yourself who are desperate for a nation that is why they will ally with anyone that tries to bring some form of administration whether they are commies or capitalists.

Actually it's people realizing it's now or never.

Economics dictates when "now or never" comes. The middle east even with its vast resources is the most economically stagnant place on earth, the rest of the planet is progressing economically. Its now or never economically.

Pashtuns also knew exactly what''s going on, but they rather have corrupt charsis than suicide bombers

blame the Taliban for their techniques .....blame them for letting Saudi Wahhabis and Pakistanis guide them.

If they knew what resistance was they'd never perform a single suicide attack in a village.

Suicide bombs are done in cities, not villagers. When the resistance becomes desperate, suicide attacks become the norm. It has happened in almost all modern resistances. I'm not saying it is a good technique but it is hard to stop it from becoming a norm.

Nah you're just flipping words around thinking the opposite holds true to try ad divert being called a Pakistani slave

you want to call me a Tajik slave? Whatever works for you; Tajiks are fellow Muslims and Afghans, Pakistanis are British servants.

Tajiks could be labeled as American servants. But lets not generalize.

Parda is not even an Afghan word, Seclusion isnt apart of Pashtun culture; the Kuchis are the original Pashtuns, people were nomadic before they were settled. So the practice of female seclusion is a later innovation, which was not in Pashtun culture. Regardless even in the villages it wasn't Pashtun culture but came with Deobandism. Because even in old paintings you'd see chadari women in cities and villages.

Painting do not usually portray the norm otherwise we would think the Greeks and the Romans ran around naked and it was the norm. Woman seclusion is pashtun culture. This is nothing new to the region. even the hindus have a woman seclusion culture adn it si slowly changing. The first changes come in the cities not in the villages.
While you are right that people were first nomadic before settled, it is also a fact that nomadic people pick up other people culture because they travel and are exposed to other people while isolated villages are the ones that keep the original practices. That is why you see the isolated nuristanis to convert last to Islam and the most non isloated kuchis were one of the first ones to convert to Islam. Kuchis also use words that are from different languages. Kuchis do have a woman seclusion culture but because of their migrating lifestyle, it is almost impossible to be a secluded to a point like int he villages.

Reality? Well I am glad you use this source as legit because now I can use similar sources too.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/127030.pdf

.

What is your point of this source. It just talks about governmnet corruption which is my point and the transition. It does not deny what I have been saying that the root of violence is the central governmentt trying to infringe on the independent nature of the tribes.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Well if you're going to use the NAVAL School as your source and it's legit; then you must accept this as legit too sine they both represent the same operational movement.

and the source shows that even despite all the incompetency of the Karzais the same noble rugged Pashtuns you are deluded to believe are fiercely independent have sold themselves off to the Government because they reject the Taliban. and that the only reason they may not support the Govt. If because the Taliban threaten to harm them? Tribal independence eh? lol

[khushal]

Well if you're going to use the NAVAL School as your source and it's legit; then you must accept this as legit too sine they both represent the same operational movement.

and the source shows that even despite all the incompetency of the Karzais the same noble rugged Pashtuns you are deluded to believe are fiercely independent have sold themselves off to the Government because they reject the Taliban. and that the only reason they may not support the Govt. If because the Taliban threaten to harm them? Tribal independence eh? lol

What are you talking about. they had to send in the calvery of 160,000+ troops and billions of more U$D to try to counter balance the incompetence of the afghan government. The place is still as it was for thousands of years, a very large "ungoverned space."

Look how the US made an agreement with the shinwari(notice they are making an agreement with an independent tribe as though it is not part of Afghanistan government authority.
Afghan Tribe, Vowing to Fight Taliban, to Get U.S. Aid in Return - NYTimes.com

Now notice what the shinwari do. This is the reason that Mike Sheur says that you can pay the Afghan but he will do what he wants anyways.
Afghan Tribal Rivalries Bedevil a U.S. Plan - NYTimes.com

They dont care about the Taliban or the Government. They are under no ones authority even after the bribe or an agreement.

The US main mission in Afghanistan is to bring governance to this "ungoverned space" so they can have their hegemony on every inch of this planet. No one can escape control once they are under the law. The only way to escape the law is to get to the ungoverned space which is why to Osama and gang, this was an utopia.

[ScimitarXEdge]

What are you talking about. they had to send in the calvery of 160,000+ troops and billions of more U$D to try to counter balance the incompetence of the afghan government. The place is still as it was for thousands of years, a very large "ungoverned space."

You're going in a circle, repeating the same point over and over won't make it valid. If your claim was valid; then those troops would have been repelled entirely already because the Tribes are like 15 million (perhaps), that's how the Mujahideen won.

Look how the US made an agreement with the shinwari(notice they are making an agreement with an independent tribe as though it is not part of Afghanistan government authority.pagewanted=all]Afghan Tribe, Vowing to Fight Taliban, to Get U.S. Aid in
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/28/world/asia/28tribe.html?Return - NYTimes.com[/url]

Which proves my point; they just want security, the Shinwaris weren't fighting the Current Government when Taliban offers money to join the Taliban, but they'll fight Taliban for money, shows that

and then they go and do this

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1989686,00.html

After all, Shinwari elders representing some 400,000 people had independently raised their own militia last summer to combat militants and smugglers trespassing on their territory, killing a key Taliban commander and putting foot soldiers on the run. This caught the attention of U.S. officers

The US main mission in Afghanistan is to bring governance to this "ungoverned space" so they can have their hegemony on every inch of this planet. No one can escape control once they are under the law. The only way to escape the law is to get to the ungoverned space which is why to Osama and gang, this was an utopia.

Agreed, about Imperial Hegemony, I'm the one who taught the forum about this stuff; but the Shinwaris seem to implore Government rule and authority inspite of all that

This is from the SAME SOURCE you posted.

“We promised to work with the government to fight the Taliban,” said Hajji Gul Nazar, an elder from the Mohmand branch of the Shinwari tribe. He added, “Well, the government officials should have taken care of this argument among us before the shooting started.”

hmmm requesting Government to rule over their affairs? So much for the days of tribal independence.

[khushal]

You're going in a circle, repeating the same point over and over won't make it valid. If your claim was valid; then those troops would have been repelled entirely already because the Tribes are like 15 million (perhaps), that's how the Mujahideen won.

No you cant if you are faced against a more powerful enemy economically and militarily. remember this is a region with no resources and the tribes conflict with each other have to do with limited resources. The tribes even use NATO to bomb their rival tribes. Remember People in this region have limited choices to survive.
a) they can migrate
b) they can fight over resources and risk being killed by others fighting for resources as well
its a fight or flight environment. Its a very difficult place to survive.

and then they go and do this

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...989686,00.html

Thats what Im saying, they fight the government when their independence is infringed upon and the taliban if they infringe upon their rights as well. Your sources is proving my point and you fail again.

Agreed, about Imperial Hegemony, I'm the one who taught the forum about this stuff; but the Shinwaris seem to implore Government rule and authority inspite of all that
This is from the SAME SOURCE you posted.

hmmm requesting Government to rule over their affairs? So much for the days of tribal independence.

That proves their independence. I dont think you understand what the tribes are saying, you dont even know what a tribe is and how they live. What the tribes hunger for is a mediator, they are saying that the government should have mediated a peace deal between the conflicting parties. This is what Zahir Shah was doing and this is what the Taliban are doing to gain the advantage over the government because the government is either too incompetent or just doesn't care about these things. If they were not independent from government authority, the US would had to go through the Afghan government but since they are independent, the US deals directly with the tribe. And they got the idea from how Pakistan was dealing with FATA who got it from the British not because they were chasing a Taliban commander.

You are one naive individual. you dont get it.

[ScimitarXEdge]

No you cant if you are faced against a more powerful enemy economically and militarily. remember this is a region with no resources and the tribes conflict with each other have to do with limited resources. The tribes even use NATO to bomb their rival tribes. Remember People in this region have limited choices to survive.
a) they can migrate
b) they can fight over resources and risk being killed by others fighting for resources as well
its a fight or flight environment. Its a very difficult place to survive.

15 Million people can easily defeat a Puppet Government in battle that is if they unanimously are against it. That's the problem there isn't uanimity, some do but MOST don't

The weakness excuse was debunked by the Soviet-Afghan war, tribesmen repelled the Soviets who had superior weapons too with few resources; even the American weapons were very scarce.

Thats what Im saying, they fight the government when their independence is infringed upon and the taliban if they infringe upon their rights as well. Your sources is proving my point and you fail again.

Uuuuuh everyone fights their government when their rights are infringed upon; The Egyptians and Yemenis and Tunisians even uprooted their Governments; this doesn't mean they don't believe in a Government.

How do I fail when you make logically absurd conclusions? Absurdity means the absurd party fails.

That proves their independence. I.

so wanting the Government to intervene and rule over their affairs between each other is independence? Ok then ...I guess this means they dont believe in central authority either?

[khushal]

Its not rule over their affairs, its mediation. Dont you know the difference.

[ScimitarXEdge]

yeah which is what Government does to exercise its ruling over people. But nah that's not ruling right?

[khushal]

yeah which is what Government does to exercise its ruling over people. But nah that's not ruling right?

No your wrong, enforcing the law is how government rules over the people not mediation. The Afghan constitution does not apply to the tribesmen, the afghan government can not and neither can NATO enforce the afghan constitution on the tribesmen. The law of "Pakhto kawal" apply in the tribal areas. This also applies to FATA and the pakistani constitution.

Even before gabriel appeared before our prophet, the people of mecca respected him not because he ruled them but because he had a reputation of being an unbiased mediator. He was a master at making decisions that made everyone happy during a dispute.

[ScimitarXEdge]

No your wrong, enforcing the law is how government rules over the people not mediation. The Afghan constitution does not apply to the tribesmen, the afghan government can not and neither .

Government deciding over a land dispute sure sounds like enforcing the Law.

[khushal]

Government deciding over a land dispute sure sounds like enforcing the Law.

mediation is not enforcing the law. this is a judiciary matter. Government is just a third party. In pashtunwali, enforcement is done differently. when the decision is made and the tribes agree to the decision, both willfully give equal securiyt( some form of asset) to the mediator and if one party violates the agreement, the violator loses their security. The parties are usually careful not to violate the agreement because usually the security is not worth what the dispute is about.
but again the afghan constitution does not apply here, property law is not made in Kabul, it was made 5000 yrs ago.