Pakistan: Haqqani Militant Network Has Ties With Government, Ambassador

[khushal]

Khushala, are you still in Hizb-i-Islami---Where is your leader Hikmatyar hiding?

Ok come on Toramana,
I have criticized him every time his name came up in previous threads. He was not any different than Masood or Rabani. A pure opportunist who destroyed Afghanistan for his own selfishness. The man is most likely sheltered by the ISI for strategic depth purposes.

[Soldat_Amir]

Ok come on Toramana,
I have criticized him every time his name came up in previous threads. He was not any different than Masood or Rabani. A pure opportunist who destroyed Afghanistan for his own selfishness. The man is most likely sheltered by the ISI for strategic depth purposes.

Since most of us here have been to Pakhtunkhwa and Afghanistan, can you provide us evidence, that the current rebellion is a Pashtun one, otherwise, I have been to both places, just returned from Afghanistan on a short policing course, and rest assured, that so called resistance has no side, but one side, the resortation of Sharia law based on Taliban's view point of Islam, there are other factors too, such as warlords, control of certain regions, but nothing of any unified resistance for the betterment of the Pashtun people, or how you would refer to it as "Pashtun Rebellion".
Afghanistan is plagued with opportunistism, and sadly, it never went through a modernising phrase, hence its current state.

TTP are funded through extortion, drug running and smuggling, Wana, is packed full of cars and products smuggled into its markets, Taliban control them all, in Karachi, the TTP extort Pashtun businesses to pay up.

One can see very openly, Afghan Taliban in Quetta, Zhob even Peshawer, and the Darol Haqqania is packed full of resting Afghan Talib fighers, go ask them, I dare you too, why are they fighting, they will tell you, we are fighting for our religion and for Sharia, not even a single mention of Pashtun unity nor a Pashtunistan, they view the world differently, without logical sense nor decency for their own people, they view the world as how their clerics view it for them, self interest and control over the masses.

Kind Regards

[Bengal_Tiger]

Ok come on Toramana,
I have criticized him every time his name came up in previous threads. He was not any different than Masood or Rabani. A pure opportunist who destroyed Afghanistan for his own selfishness. The man is most likely sheltered by the ISI for strategic depth purposes.

Toramana did the same with me, calling me Taliban despite the fact that it is clear I dislike them, because I have the same views as the ANP on any major US operation in FATA, i.e. I am against it.

[retro]

you dont need 150,000+ NATO troops to handle a handful of Pakistani slaves. The Pashtun rebellion is real.
I never said pashtuns support the government, I was saying that your poll which is what says that the overwhelming afghan people support the Afghan Government does not prove the tribes actually give up their autonomy. the tribes supported Zahir shah but they were still autonomous.

Afghanistan isn't going to remain a tribal society for ever. The Taliban aren't in a position to provide security on a national level and they aren't strong.

NATO have 160,000 vs. 40,000 Taliban and NATO's efficiency is far higher than the Talibans. What is more, Kabul now have 305,000 police and solders under their control.

As long as the Taliban the remain outside of the political process and do not agree to negotiate. Then all NATO and it's cronies in Kabul need do is maintain that the Taliban are a 'unreasonable' and move to isolate them even further.

The Afghan national government aren't going to tolerate a competing centre of power and whilst NATO are clearly supporting them. The Taliban are also foreign backed and aren't exactly noted for their love of pluralism. If they came back into power they would place Pashtuns at odds with both Afghan minorities and their neighbours.

[ScimitarXEdge]

you dont need 150,000+ NATO troops to handle a handful of Pakistani slaves. The Pashtun rebellion is real.
I never said pashtuns support the government,.

Yet as we see it, we dont see the overwhelming majority of Pashtuns rebelling...and most want Taliban to stop fighting and join said government strange eh?

Tribesmen are usually bribed to give support, as long as payment is given stops so will support.

talk about contradiction.


I guess 90% of Afghans got bribed now?

[ScimitarXEdge]

You lost the HAMAS debate and the debate about the Taliban commander that was allegedly stoned to death by villagers. You could nt prove any of your points. I was using your logic with HAMAS to make you realize how illogical you are and you yourself was arguing against your own logic.

If I lost the HAMAS debate you wouldn't have kept trying to find new sources everytime the original posts were debunked. It demonstrates your argument isn't clear and is based on flimsy foundations.

If that's your idea of success, no wonder the region is in failure.

I am a Zazai from the tribal belt. All I'm doing is explaining the reasoning behind the violence in the tribal belt. The Pakistani narrative is much different from what I am saying.

Being a Zazai doesn't prove much; there are many Stooges of Pakistan that exist out there from Zazai, from Zadran, from Ghazni even.


Your explanations are the Pakistani narrative; identical to it.

Quote me where I said the Pashtuns accept the Taliban. I have claimed the Pashtuns tribes reject central authority whether it is the Afghan Government out of Kabul or the Taliban. The difference is that the Taliban much like Zahir Shah understands this aspect of the society and the Afghan government has not learned any lesson from history.

You're referring to the Taliban as "Pashtun resistance", sort of implicates support for the Taliban. you're backpeddling now.

Read about the American revolution and how at that time state rights was at the core of debate and conflict much like tribal rights in Afghanistan are at the core of conflict today.

Tribal rights were a core of fighting amanullah, but there's no evidence of that now, now since MOST tribes Support the Goverment.

You on the other hand have adopted the Tajiks narrative by saying the resistance is a Pakistani slave and has nothing to do with the structure of society or the people that are resisting should not be given a voice. If the Pakistani were so good at enslaving people, they would have wrestled Kashmir from India long ago and FATA would not be FATA but part of KP proper and part of the Pakistani nation.

That's not the Tajik Narrative; that's the evidential narrative, that's the narrative that every everything from the money trail to Taliban commanders themselves confess to.

you're just a desperate apologist trying to explain the evidence away. The evidence is already available, you simply deny it.

[khushal]

Since most of us here have been to Pakhtunkhwa and Afghanistan, can you provide us evidence, that the current rebellion is a Pashtun one, otherwise, I have been to both places, just returned from Afghanistan on a short policing course, and rest assured, that so called resistance has no side, but one side, the resortation of Sharia law based on Taliban's view point of Islam, there are other factors too, such as warlords, control of certain regions, but nothing of any unified resistance for the betterment of the Pashtun people, or how you would refer to it as "Pashtun Rebellion".
Afghanistan is plagued with opportunistism, and sadly, it never went through a modernising phrase, hence its current state.

TTP are funded through extortion, drug running and smuggling, Wana, is packed full of cars and products smuggled into its markets, Taliban control them all, in Karachi, the TTP extort Pashtun businesses to pay up.

One can see very openly, Afghan Taliban in Quetta, Zhob even Peshawer, and the Darol Haqqania is packed full of resting Afghan Talib fighers, go ask them, I dare you too, why are they fighting, they will tell you, we are fighting for our religion and for Sharia, not even a single mention of Pashtun unity nor a Pashtunistan, they view the world differently, without logical sense nor decency for their own people, they view the world as how their clerics view it for them, self interest and control over the masses.

Kind Regards

Welcome back. From your statement I can asses your a Pashtun nationalist. The tribesmen don't believe in Nation, so they would not fight for one unless there is economic benefit. Even if they can be convinced to join a nation, they have to completely restructure their own way of life economically and socially, something that would take decades. They would have to de-tribalize and either feudalize or industrialize. I cant see either happening in our lifetime.

When they tell you they are fighting for Islam, what they are telling you is they are fighting for freedom, the way they know it, the pashtun way, and that is free from central authority. When an American is telling you they are fighting for freedom, they mean it their way not the Pashtun way. Every ones perception of freedom is different. Your perception of freedom could be the right to drink and get drunk, their perception of freedom would be the right to be free from intoxication and any opportunity for intoxication should be banned.

The Americans tried prohibition which didn't work, The afghans tried the freedom to consume alcohol and it didn't work. The Afghan way will not work in America and the American way will not work in Afghanistan. Even the American backed Karzai government is going back to Sharia because they have no choice, mini skirts is just not going to work in Afghanistan and its not because of the Taliban but because of the large conservative population. Afghanistan is not America.
Afghan government plans crackdown on revealing wedding dresses | World news | The Guardian

You have to ask yourself why is the violence upticking year after year that it forced America to have a surge of troops and they keep changing the withdrawal date further and further. Its obvious that there is a population that is marginalized and a population that does not have a voice, a population whose rights are infringed. If that population is not heard, they will seek help to destablize the society so they can be heard. "No justice, no Peace" kind of a message.

http://merln.ndu.edu/archive/icg/afghanistanpashtunalienation.pdf

[retro]

‘Bomb, bomb phata’

These are precisely the lyrics of an Ali Azmat song that’s been sailing high on the video charts. Why? Because they reflect fear based on reality; on how life has come to be lived in our cities, towns and far off mountainous valleys alike. The suicide bombing targeting the CID SSP’s home in Karachi’s DHA district on Monday morning during the school-rush hour is but the latest case in point.


The Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan hurriedly claimed responsibility for the attack which left eight dead, including a schoolboy and his mother who were on their way to school.

This and many other such assaults in our cities, on schools and shrines, are not the handy work of CIA drones which Imran Khan and others, like the Jamaat-i-Islami and Shahbaz Sharif, are so worried about. The last mentioned had requested the Taliban last year to spare Punjab because his government was opposed to the American action against the extremists hiding in Pakistan. One has yet to hear a word of condemnation coming out of such leaders’ big and loud mouths when it’s Pakistani extremists targeting their own innocent people. Is the killing by US drones more lethal and thus an attack on our sovereignty than that carried out by our own, home grown militants? It is the latter for the most part who have taken away much of the state’s sovereignty within its own borders by eroding the state’s ability to enforce its writ, to protect its citizens from the enemies within.
How many such terrorists from our own midst have we been able to nab and bring to justice thus far? Even when they are caught and arraigned in a court of law they manage to be set free by the judges for lack of evidence, and because of sloppy prosecution cases prepared against them that will not stand the court’s scrutiny. Not only that, known militant leaders spouting hate and venom, like Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar, are left to preach hate and intolerance, along with nutty televangelists like Zaid Hamid and Aamir Liaquat Husain.


People like Farhat Hashmi and her Al Huda deputies, too, are free to hold forth, openly declaring Muslims not so puritan in their way of life heretics. On another bizarre plain, the media’s darling also remains Fauzia Siddiqui, the venom-spouting sister of Dr Aafia Siddiqui, who is now out, together with the JI on a fundraiser, to collect 15 crore rupees to defend her convicted sister in the US, this at a time, when money should be raised to alleviate the sufferings of the flood-hit people in Sindh. In Punjab, where the Dengue epidemic has spread, the Punjab Assembly meets only to call the virus God’s wrath visiting upon us for our sins. President Zardari too called for a day of prayers to ward off the curses of floods and Dengue! This is precisely what ‘Talibanisation’ (radicalisation) of society is all about. While in Afghanistan it was the illiterate masses who were Talibanised, it is the urban middle class in Pakistan which is becoming the tool of such rapid mass radicalisation.

This has to be stopped, and here’s how: the state should declare war on anti-social elements. To start with, hate speeches must be banned on all public forums, and more so on television that beams straight into our homes. Hate-mongers must be apprehended and brought to justice using due process of law, and not through summery prosecution by some special courts that have little credibility with the public and which in turn add to sympathy for them. The state needs to come out clean and put its resolve before the public that it is doing this in public interest and not at the instance of the US or any other foreign power.


As for the army establishment, which makes it its business to comment on foreign policy all the time, perhaps it too is required to tell the people that if ordered to assist the civilian security apparatus, as it did in Swat, it is willing to fight terrorists who are out on a killing spree in our own cities and towns. How could there be any external security when internal security stands so compromised, and of which the army itself has been a target, as the militants’ siege of the GHQ in Rawalpindi two years ago made it so very clear.


Before looking for strategic depth in Afghanistan, we should be reclaiming that same depth in our own country. This cannot be done by pursuing only the CIA sleuths that are there in Pakistan, but also through getting on the tracks of home-grown militants who have terrorised the average citizen.



‘Bomb, bomb phata’ | Blog | DAWN.COM

[retro]

The Pakis are two faced hypocrites, who love to whine about Talibanisation and radicalisation. When Pakistan has long been one of the most rabidly Islamist, nations in Asia.

If Pakistan shifts toward a more autocratic form of government under the premise of countering extremist. Then maybe their will be another putsch by the Army. Since Pakistan is increasingly isolated and at risk of becoming completely dysfunctional.

[randolph85]

pakistan has been completely dysfunctional since its birth. the stage was set for it to be a great nation with a large population, vast natural resources and already built british government institutions. its pretty much been a failure in every sense of the word.

[emkhan]

halaka randolpha, ta bia raghley!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[randolph85]

araam sho

[khushal]

If I lost the HAMAS debate you wouldn't have kept trying to find new sources everytime the original posts were debunked. It demonstrates your argument isn't clear and is based on flimsy foundations.

If that's your idea of success, no wonder the region is in failure.

I kept putting new sources out there because there were too many sources
out there. You couldnt debunk none of them and neither could anyone else.

Being a Zazai doesn't prove much; there are many Stooges of Pakistan that exist out there from Zazai, from Zadran, from Ghazni even.

That is true but you claimed I was a Pakistani with Pashtun heritage. So it is you who is back peddling.

Your explanations are the Pakistani narrative; identical to it.
You're referring to the Taliban as "Pashtun resistance", sort of implicates support for the Taliban. you're backpeddling now.

the Taliban are part of the Pashtun resistance. The resistance fight each other all the time. HIG forces clash with Taliban forces constantly. Many of the Pashtun resistance fighters only fight to get their land free from foreign forces and foreign influence and have no organization what so ever.
Even ANA forces fire on foreign forces from time to time.
Report Sees Threat in Afghan Allies - WSJ.com

It is reasonable to asses that once the foreign forces leave, most fighters would return back to village life and lay down their arms much like what happened when the soviets withdrew.

Tribal rights were a core of fighting amanullah, but there's no evidence of that now, now since MOST tribes Support the Goverment.

You need to visit Afghanistan Tribal areas in order to understand what your talking about because you have no clue.

“The Wars of Afghanistan: Messianic Terrorism, Tribal Conflicts, and the Failures of Great Powers” by Peter Tomsen - The Washington Post
The book begins with a brief look at Afghanistan’s history. Tomsen calls the country a “shatter zone” because it was repeatedly invaded by stronger powers and then it invariably defeated or outlasted its occupiers. The key to the nation’s resilience, he notes, is its reliance on thousands of isolated communities that were always willing to fight but never willing to give up their independence. This fragmented structure affected how Afghanistan was governed: The leadership in Kabul survived only by forging alliances with enough tribes and ethnic groups to achieve critical weight and maintain stability

That's not the Tajik Narrative; that's the evidential narrative, that's the narrative that every everything from the money trail to Taliban commanders themselves confess to.

you're just a desperate apologist trying to explain the evidence away. The evidence is already available, you simply deny it.

It is exactly the Tajik narrative. They deny that pashtun have been marginalized and everything is "hunky dory" and claim that the resistance is solely Pakistans slaves which is what you preach. That the resistance are "waton ferosh" and the Afghan government is not.
You are desperately trying to mute the resistance by labeling them as a handful of pakistans slaves but ignoring the fact that America had to send 160,000+ troops to handle these handful of slaves.
Ignoring the facts is not going to solve the problem. you must embrace the facts in order to solve the problem.

[khushal]

Yet as we see it, we dont see the overwhelming majority of Pashtuns rebelling...and most want Taliban to stop fighting and join said government strange eh?

If the pashtuns were not rebelling and trully supported the governmnet as you say, the rebellion would not last a week because a rebellion can not last without local support. I am no fan of polls. The poll suggests something that defies logic. Most NA people don't want peace with the Taliban. Most Taliban don't want peace with NA or the Afghan government. Taliban commanders that have joined the governmnet usually have second thoughts.
One must study how the poll was conducted. How were the querstions asked. Where were they asked. Was it only educated people that werein the polls or average uneducated afghans.

I guess 90% of Afghans got bribed now?

how were the questions asked, polls are not that reliable.
what is happening on the ground is reliable and the facts are the ground are not promising.
this poll says that afghan have no confidence in their governmnet
Afghans' Approval of Their Leadership Falls to 33%

[randolph85]

afghans mostly have a sit and wait approach to things. i believe that most don't support the taliban or the government. this mostly being to the "don't put all your eggs in one basket" when there is no guarantee attitude.

as for the poll, it looks like 44% approve of the job performance of karzai. thats better than many western leaders and their peoples perceptions.

afghans are simple people, they want physical security and some opportunity at economic growth. leaders and governments are not judged the same way in afghanistan as they are in the US.

and lets not pretend that all afghans are sharp and perceptive as we want to think they are. i could bring up that now well known poll about most afghans not knowing anything about 9/11.