Message Of Felicitation Of The Esteemed Amir-Ul-Momineen On The Occasion Of Eid-Ul-F

[BarakzaiAbdali]

conspiracy theory again?.....It wouldn't make sense to kill him if the Taliban were using him to strike the Pakistani establishment if he was willing to expose it....unless of course they're apart of the Pakistani establishment doh.

Occum's razor my friend... your theory lacks sense and is too convoluted and illogical. The simplest solutions are always the most likely.

So basically your theory runs:

Militants (aka Pakistani special ops??? vs uneducated vegabonds) capture the Colonel... then in order to use him to release other Pakistani agents/tools? they use another Pakistani loyalist as bait (mind you, there is no written, oral, or historical evidence up to this point that the colonol or Tarar were Pakistani loyalists) --> so then the Pakistanis use another intelligence agent who had only demonstrated loyalty to get other loyal Pakistani's released by???? ---> Killing him????

So then you might say that they needed to kill him in a way to make it look like militants killed him and even tricked him into thinking he was being kidnapped by militants... but the Colonel was known for being dicey and crafty... not stupid. Why walk into Waziristan (the start of his journey ther was witnessed) in order to expose Pakistan if that was what his plan was.

Moreover, what did he plan to expose considering he was very happy with the apparatus he had supposedly built up for Pakistan's strategic depth policies.

Furthermore, his comrade Khwaja had a well known duplicitous role on the whole Lal masjid affair that has pissed off a number of militant outfits.

Furthermore, up to the end, Colonol Imam had shown unswerving loyalty to the Taliban... you have no statement whatosever that can counter this:

""with Pervez Musharraf, the President at the time, over Pakistan’s sudden cessation of support for the Taleban after the September 11, 2001, attacks.
“I told him, ‘I spent 18 years with them and they cannot be defeated’,” Colonel Imam recalled. “He told me I didn’t know what a superpower was. But I’d just seen one crumble in front of me across the border and cease to exist. It hadn’t been the support of the Americans that had done that, but conviction in their cause.” "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7036961.ece

So now, according to your theory...he was going to expose Pakistan... for???? funding the Taliban???? who he supported.

Occum's Razor fails you my brother. When the failed great grand"sons" of Telai beckon and support you, it is time to hang up the contrarian hat.

[ScimitarXEdge]

One has to read Col. Imam in total; he supported the Taliban FOR Pakistan's sake, and now that the Pakistanis had sold him out, he was going to expose them and their relationship. If Col. Imam had "unswerving" Loyalty, they wouldn't accuse him of being a spy and ultimately murdering him. So much for loyalty?

I don't see what you have done to refute my points other than rephrase my statements and add a coveted "?", Question Mark after them.

scoffing something isn't refutation

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Q

One has to read Col. Imam in total; he supported the Taliban FOR Pakistan's sake, and now that the Pakistanis had sold him out, he was going to expose them and their relationship

I don't see what you have done to refute my points other than rephrase my statements and add a coveted "?", Question Mark after them.

scoffing something isn't refutation

I would never scoff you SXE. I admire your goal of vetting all comers. But we must also look at all the points in all the players and admit plausible alternative explanations. For instance... I generally ascribe to the seemingly unpopular belief that 9/11 was an operation carried out by militant groups upset with US policy. I cite various references from sources that I appreciate the logic of that support this view and then, instead of explaining it away as conspiracy... I take the stance that we can put the ball in the American court and assume that AQ did it... and say with a yawn... so what? Then I go on the offensive about the American actions leading up to it. Folks here referenced shura counsel videos/PBS documentaries of those that had first hand heard from OBL that he denied doing it... Faye cited a Karachi newspaper article with his last will and testament. Hashemi told us directly in person that he heard this denial... so although, I ascribe to the theory of least resistance... I cannot but admit that uncanny evidence exists that allows us to question the details. This is not demonstrating weakness my friend... rather, this is an acceptance of what might be plausible and then we attempt to gather evidence to judge what is said.

For instance... Randolph had a logical retort about Sherzai that I need to stew on for a little while and absorb. I need to read on the differences of conditions in Nangrahar between the Taliban period stability and Sherzai's... and I need to investigate whether the selling of youths for trade occured in their time as he has offered.

Now back to the subject.

The question mark is to point out where the theory diverges. When, where, and how did Pakistan sell out Colonol Imam? They appeared to turn over Zaeef and Guantanamo him. They did no such thing to the colonol. The Colonel's written witnesses appear to support an unpopular stance in the world stage... with his continued effusive praise for Mullah Omar. Read the telegraph article. The only way he felt "sold out" was by Musharraf's lack of neutrality and explicit support for America against the Taliban.

Moreover, Khushal's analysis of the tribal breakdown of militants (a more proper term than the blanket term Taliban) hold some truth and really slices through your theory like butter. The TTP composition is predominantly tribes in FATA with some KP mainland fighters from religio-political zealots. They sent fighters to Afghanistan (Nek Muhammad fought there as an example)... but their lands and territory is susceptible to Pakistani Army operations. The Afghan Taliban on the other hand know that they Pakistani soil as a backward operating base to recede into form time to time.

There are MULTIPLE sub groups on that side of the border, with the initial troublesome group led by Baitullah Mehsud and subsequently by Hakimullah Mehsud. The Mehsuds and Wazirs are now thoroughly incensed at their treatment at the hands of Pakistan. The Durrani, Ghilzai, Eastern Afghan fighters of the Afghan Taliban have not suffered at the hands of Pakistan so much as the Wazir/Mehsud led faction has. All groups have sworn nominal loyalty to Mullah Omar, but each has their own sub Emir.

In to this divide stepped the Colonol.. here, my friend is the more logical basis for why the TTP arm put him into the ground:

"both former operatives [Khwaja and Colonol] had publicly criticized the Pakistani Taliban in media statements—claiming that the Pakistani Taliban were working as part of a foreign agenda to destabilize Pakistan. Indeed, after the kidnapping, one of the kidnappers defended the action by saying that Colonel Imam and Khwaja had called the Pakistani Taliban terrorists: “It is wrong of them to describe us as terrorists. We too are fighting jihad.”"

http://www.ctc.usma.edu/posts/the-im...er-in-pakistan

This is no wise different than AQ central's inability at times to control the wiley and brutal Zarqawi. I can provide you references from a letter AL Zawahari wrote to Zarqawai to get him to quit his massive anti shiite campaign that was leading the population to become disillusioned with the AQ Iraqi insurgency.

The article above, from West Point as referencing Rahimullah Yusufzai comes to this conclusion independently:


"Although Taliban leaders will not go on the record criticizing Hakimullah Mehsud, many prominent Taliban leaders told this author that the TTP is hurting their cause. They argue that Pakistani citizens are less likely to support the mujahidin due to the brutality of the TTP."

Rahimullah Yusufzai has been able to acces OBL, Omar, and host of hard to access Pashtun personalities... so I think his word is not easy to dismiss.

So there is no need to refute your theory because you have proposed a thesis with little evidence to support it and it violates the occum's razor approach to life.

[unknownprince]

Scimitar,

The Taliban have a lot of rural support. LOL, when did Khushal say they have ALL the RURAL SUPPORT? Some people are more interested in kidnapping foreigners for money. Some people are fighting the foreigners for their own reasons, to free their country.


And, your telling me that this Menzai is your evidence LOL LOL

[ScimitarXEdge]

I admire that you'll write copiously; but basically you're saying you're scapegoating the burden needed to refute the fact that Col. Imam was going to expose Pakistan and then ends up dead by the Taliban (on the premise they're Pakistanis enemies). I can only say either one has blinders on or one is obtuse, or one is simply in denial.

Your references only furtehr prove my point; if the Taliban were aggressive towards Col. Imam because he made disparaging statements against the Pakistani Taliban, why then would they not use him to expose the Pakistani establishment. That would have been the best strategic weapon if their cause is to debunk the Pakistanis. The context demonstrates the motive. This is the only plausible logical explanation given the evidence.

And I thank you for that quote because really you just verified my point unwittingly. The smoking gun is now burning with flames.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I admire that you'll write copiously; but basically you're saying you're scapegoating the burden needed to refute the fact that Col. Imam was going to expose Pakistan and then ends up dead by the Taliban (on the premise they're Pakistanis enemies). I can only say either one has blinders on or one is obtuse, or one is simply in denial.

You ignored Yusufzai's details which rides along very well and easily with Khushal's point that different groups of tribes back different militant groups. Even with the Mehsud tribe for instance... there was the Baitullah group and his adversary group... Baitullah took out the adversary. By this same token, the Afghan Taliban have their sites set on operations in Afghanistan proper. The Wazirs/Mehsuds, Bajauris etc who comprise the TTP arm... as well as the Swatis under Fazlullah had their clashes with the Pakistani military... their grand leader Sufi Muhammad is in jail... Omar is not.

Once again, what was Colonel Imam to expose???

Your references only furtehr prove my point; if the Taliban were aggressive towards Col. Imam because he made disparaging statements against the Pakistani Taliban, why then would they not use him to expose the Pakistani establishment.

Hence the guns... the masked men... the aftermath. Thank you for proving my point. Their version of "exposure" means that the colonol tells the public that the Pak government is trying to stamp out a legitimate resistance that is fighting their double standard policy. Hence the pouting on their behalf that their fight means as much to them as their Afghan brethrens.

That would have been the best strategic weapon if their cause is to debunk the Pakistanis. The context demonstrates the motive. This is the only plausible logical explanation given the evidence.

Only if you ignore every other quote in the article and cherry pick.

And I thank you for that quote because really you just verified my point unwittingly. The smoking gun is now burning with flames.

Thats not a good thing because a gun should not burst into flames otherwise it is a poorly designed weapon.

[unknownprince]

Barakzai, I think you have to remove one [Quote] otherwise it looks like Scimitar responded to himself

[graveyardofempires]

You don't even know the guy ......he actually LIVES there sir.

how do you knwo he lives there?

btw here is another isi agent who exposes everything about Pakistan
HOPE YOU DO SPEAK URDU TO UNDERSTAND THIS

khalid khwaja
Confessions of a Pakistani spy ISI Khalid Khawaja part-1 - YouTube
Confessions of a Pakistani spy ISI Khalid Khawaja part-2 - YouTube

col imam actually was on tv acting pro mullah omar but anti TTP and calling TTP indian raw agents.

there was also a lengthy video where hakimullah lays down accusations against imam and some of them being that imam was responsible for bombing of civilian areas.


here is Hakimullah Mehsud standing behind col imam
Exclusive Footage of Col: IMAM Execution by Tehreek-e-Taliban.flv - YouTube

here is a paki military researcher and pakistani patriot view
Zaid Hamid on Col Imams Martydom - YouTube

[ScimitarXEdge]

Thats not a good thing because a gun should not burst into flames otherwise it is a poorly designed weapon.

Ok since you refuse to do a point by point; I'll just summarize Rahimullah Yusufzai explanation is irrelevant since they make Bay'ah to Mullah Omar, and the fact that other Taliban believe their under their jurisdiction to approve or scold them is in effect showing they're connected. and evidently by the ISI.


emphasizing Rahimullah Yusufzai is more or less a red herring since it doesn't account for anything. ...

There's no cherry picking; you're merely present quotes which have no bearing.

What does Col Imam have to reveal? WHAT DOESN'T he have to reveal. He was one of the top ISI officers. .....you're just looking for scapegoats wrora.

[randolph85]

col imam looked to be taking the official/unofficial paki establishment stance of supporting the afghan taliban but denouncing the ttp. the pakis would love for the taliban to rule afghanistan but when it comes to their own taliban, they call them mossad/raw/cia agents.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

col imam looked to be taking the official/unofficial paki establishment stance of supporting the afghan taliban but denouncing the ttp. the pakis would love for the taliban to rule afghanistan but when it comes to their own taliban, they call them mossad/raw/cia agents.

100% exactly. This is what I am trying to tell SXE.

Any reasonable observer who takes all of his statements into account, watches his videography, and understands his impending dustup with the TTP over these statements, and notes the exact composition of the TTP (non Afghan nationals + FATA tribals + swati militants + JUI + lashkar tayeba folks) understands this dichotomy.

I would appreciate, if you get the chance, for you to detail why you take this view as opposed to the massive conspiracy that SXE is adamanatly backing.

The key part of his conspiracy is this allegation that Colonel Imam was about to reveal Pakistani state secrets and that the TTP killed him in order to ensure this did not happen... yet they allowed him to somehow be videotaped making this allegation that he would "expose" the conspiracy.

The more realistic, sane, and pragmatic interpretation of the conflict boils down to a few key things:

One of which is the rather simple conclusion that the Wazirs and Meshuds as well as the Swati militants came to realize that Pakistan was playing a double game... sending them across the border to die... yet sending killing machines and other accessories across the border to NATO. They then turned their guns onto Pakistan, diverging from the Afghan Taliban's general policy of accepting that Pakistan is playing a double game, but understanding that they have their own strategic depth that they require on Pakistani soil... and they do not want to rock the boat so to speak.

[randolph85]

i haven't been following sxe's and your discussions on the matter but just read a couple posts.

the pakistan-ttp-taliban relationship is beyond black and white.

on one hand u have the afghan taliban who have a clandestine relationship with the paki intel agency, whether this relationship is on equal footing or not is of no importance but all unbiased observers know it exists. on the other hand u have the ttp which are the ideological offspring of the afghan taliban, the lil brothers, if u will. because they have never ruled a nation, like the afghan taliban (no matter how poorly), they do not understand good/bar pr, or even the concept of public support which the afghan taliban were originally built upon.

this relationship complicates matters with pakistan but the pakis in their infinite delusions, believe supporting the afghan taliban based on the idea of strategic depth is worth a homegrown taliban problem. it may be worth it to them because this problem is based in an area which has no economic value to the state. the afghan taliban won't condemn the ttp for their awful crimes because it won't look good for the movement as a whole, nor will the ttp denounce the afghan taliban for its links to the isi because its existence is based on the legitimacy of their big brother afghan taliban movement.

pakistan believes it can isolate the ttp like it has the tribal areas since its existence as a state, with little harm to the actual paki state east of the tribal areas. little harm except the occasional suicide bombing here and there, but we all know the paki establishment cares little for the lives that it governs.

in other words, pakistan's policies have come back to bite them in the ass. u can only juggle so many groups before the groups spawn into something entirely different than they were supported for, and have offspring.

[unknownprince]

^your stretching this beyond absurdity by saying that TTP was formed and controlled by Pakistan.

So Pakistan has TTP attack Pakistan government institutions and the Pakistani Army in all part of Pakistan (Karachi Naval Base attack)??

Also, Pakistan has no control over Afghan Taliban.

[unknownprince]

Furthermore, you forget how the TTP existed. the TTP arose due to Pakistan's support for the US war in Afghanistan. Other incidences also brought about their formation, most notably the Pakistan attack on the Red Mosque.

I suggest you brush up on the facts.

[unknownprince]

Also in more news released by the NDS, apparently the Afghan militants who attacked the US Embassy in Kabul also were drinking Pakistani sodas. How pathetic and retarded they are becoming? I wonder who makes all this crap up there.

-That these Afghans militants could not resist but to bring along the Pakistani sodas to sip on during yesterdays events. LOL. Since an NDS official said it, it must be true, right?

LMAO

LMAO