Message Of Felicitation Of The Esteemed Amir-Ul-Momineen On The Occasion Of Eid-Ul-F

[Catya Sher]

The truth about all these over=believed,
over-worshipped American analysts like Michael S.
can be found in this
video:

9-11 Is the Litmus Test (Countdown to the 10th Anniversary of 9/11) - YouTube

[randolph85]

i wonder what the commander of the faithful has to say about his paki taliban friends kidnapping a bunch of kids?

[khushal]

It has to do with afghans who live in Afghanistan disagreeing with you, the whole "if they're saints" stuff is just theatrics of emotional appeals.

So what you are saying is that afghan in afghanistan have confidence in the afghan government because I don't and neither do most Americans? But nur ul aziz portraying the afghan government official as a saint is ridiculous. This man fought hard against the government because he had a reason, he was marginalized.
Taliban defectors dont defect because they have a change of heart, it is because of money. the british employed the same program as did the soviets. What do you think Ahmed Shaw Masood was, a defector for soviet money.
Funding to lure Taliban defectors stalled
more money = more defections

When taliban defectors dont get their money, they have a change of heart.
Taliban commander who defected considering return to insurgency - Telegraph

You fail to understand the economics of Afghanistan. The country is landlocked with no sustainable economy and its incapable of supporting its people. People fight for economic reasons and people lay down their arms for economic reasons. when you are marginalized, you have been economically sidelined, the afghan's answer to this is putting a gun in your hand and shooting at the ones who has sidelined you until they hear you, when they hear you, you have reason to put down your arms, when they marginalize you again, the cycle continues. Warlordism is created because of this corrupt system. The US policy of creating militias and bribing wannabe warlords is just fueling this corruption. the sincerity of this person or that person has not that much to do with it, the problem is the system not the people. The people are just reacting to the system.

[khushal]

I don't see that, but if you're going to argue from such a bias, then similiarly it can be argued that your eagerness to disparage his sincerity implicates some bitterness that he rejected the Taliban and feel threatened by his willingness to expose his former comrades for what they actually are.

this guy was WITH the Taliban, if corrupt officials like him are why the Taliban exist in the first place, it demonstrates how thoroughly corrupt the Taliban must be if they welcome such people into the fold for 10 years or more.

Such arguments backfire because they only hurt the taliban;

Taliban defection will not solve the afghan problem. You have failed to propose a solution to the problem because you dont know the problem. propose a solution to the afghan problem and no the Egyptian revolution is not a solution to the afghan problem, it is a different society. You have to understand the society first.

[khushal]

i wonder what the commander of the faithful has to say about his paki taliban friends kidnapping a bunch of kids?

bring forth a solution Randolph, this picture has no purpose but to make afghans look like as though they are barbaric.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

you just can't say baaaaah the article is ridiculous because it doesn't flow with your debate Barakzai wrora. Well you can but that lacks intellectual credibility

They don't reject the Taliban per se, just what their ideological platform has to offer. If they rejected them, they wouldn't want to reassimilate them back into society.

You're selectively reading as far as I can grasp



It's clearly NOT 50/50..... 55% + 26%= 81%

You can probably draw straw hairs on phrases like "little sympathy"; but little sympathy means a whoooole lotta lack of sympathy. The overwhelming majority of Afghans don't support Talibs.

The confidence in the army does surprise me as well, but I won't discredit it; after ll if you want us to believe Taliban represent legitimate peoples resistance, I'd say that's absurd on the scales of Bat Boy Escapes Tabloids.

Now the news article maybe putting their own spin into things; but results are results, Taliban aren't really that liked. Sorry bro

Come on brother, thats absurd... you redefine "little sympathy" to suit your argument and forget that the article itself said that dangerous areas were excluded. I destroy this with the US military's own info much further below.

Lets go back to your source first:

"More than 6,400 adults were polled in June and July in all 34 provinces, excluding some dangerous areas..."

Great so they went to Gul Agha Sherzoys house and asked him what he thought about the army and he told them everything was peachy keen.

That proves what???

See, that brand of logic is equal to your dismissing little sympathy as meaning no sympathy. Its like doublethink in Orwellian where you define words to suit your beliefs.

Also... the sampling is a bit odd dont you think??? To take Pashtun data and mix it in with the data derived from the northern provinces offers us a slanted view of what the war torn south might really think. Its a given that Panjshiris do not like the Taliban. I did not need a survey to tell me that.

This might very well explain how folks like the murderous Abdul Raziq in Kandahar might be given such high marks for his "performance..." I am pretty sure some Nurzais I know might take issue with your assuming that the results apply to them.

Once again, legitimacy is in the eyes of the beholder. Kawun Kakar's quote, without your tafsir about the quote appears to legitimize it.

Now for the clincher:

I can produce better... I can produce information from the US military within those dangerous areas that you neglect in your assessment:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...ior-to-karzai/

"Last month, Army Colonel Randy George completed a year-long tour leading the nearly 5800 soldiers of Task Force Mountain Warrior in some of Afghanistan’s most violent and vexing areas: Nangarhar, Nuristan, Kunar, and Laghman provinces, a mountainous part of the country home to about 3.7 million people, 33 tribes and sub-tribes, and over 300 kilometers’ worth of porous border with tribal Pakistan. After a yearlong effort to learn how the locals perceived the obstacles to their future, George prepared some briefing slides attempting to distill popular local sentiments. (He did not make any broader judgment about any other areas of Afghanistan.) Danger Room was recently able to review some of those slides and take notes on their contents, although we weren’t permitted to take them or reproduce them."

Pay close attention as the American military's own information confirms:

"As a result, those big mistakes by the Afghan government lead the locals of N2KL to rank the “Taliban/al-Qaeda/Militant-Insurgent ‘Syndicate’” fourth out of four on George’s list of how they perceive their problems. Locals consider the insurgents “morally superior” to the Karzai government. The insurgents provide the population something the government doesn’t, or at least doesn’t provide sufficiently: “culturally appropriate access to justice, resources and Islamic identity,” in George’s assessment."

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...ior-to-karzai/

Sure, we will joust as you attempt to take this sentence:

"He did not make any broader judgment about any other areas of Afghanistan."

and attempt to discredit this information as not applicable... but it is not discreditable and is certainly superior to your inadequate study. Moreover, its from the US military itself... from the mouth of the enemy of the Taliban. If you attempt to say its not utilizable... its just you saying its not utilizable because you feel that way... the info certainly holds more water than a survey that drowns out a Pashtun sample size with the words of farsiwaanaan and the like. It also holds more weight than a survey that has the FATAL flaw of the assinine information that Afghans have confidence in this military????

http://www2.tbo.com/news/nation-worl...ons-ar-255558/

Let me give you a choice quote:
"At least one in seven Afghan soldiers walked off the job during the first six months of this year, a worsening trend at a time when Afghan and U.S. officials are trying to shift the burden of fighting the Taliban to Afghan security forces.
Between January and June, 24,590 soldiers walked off the job, compared with 11,423 in the same period last year, according to NATO. In June alone, more than 5,000 soldiers deserted, nearly 3 percent of the force, which now has about 170,000 soldiers, significantly more than a year ago."

So you expect me to believe your source is not riddled with absurdities when it claims 90%+ confidence when the most objective evidence (enlistment and desertions) show the exact opposite???

Your next attempt will be to say that we have already dismissed US sources as propaganda so its illegitimate for us to utilize their own words....thats hogwash because here, their words make their enemy look good and make complete logical sense so its fair game.

Finally my friend... its time to admit that the only active resistance in town is the blanket insurgency whether you want to call it Afghans with Cookies... The Amir Ghaznavi Club... The hated by Toramana Gang... or the Taliban. If it makes you feel better to single out Mullah Omar as worthy of criticism, then fine... he is just one amongst the Legions.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

i wonder what the commander of the faithful has to say about his paki taliban friends kidnapping a bunch of kids?

He appears to have already addressed it:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/as...348124813.html

"A brave son of Islam should not be used for lower and useless targets. The utmost effort should be made to avoid civilian casualties," the book says.
There are now clear guidelines on how the Taliban will treat its prisoners as well.
"Whenever any official, soldier, contractor or worker of the slave government is captured, these prisoners cannot be attacked or harmed," it says.
"The decision on whether to seek a prisoner exchange or to release the prisoner with strong guarantees will be made by the provincial leader.
"Releasing prisoners in exchange for money is strictly prohibited.""

or here:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/as...348124813.html

"Governors, district chiefs and line commanders and every member of the Mujahideen must do their best to avoid civilian deaths, civilian injuries and damage to civilian property. Great care must be taken."

or here:

"The Mujahideen have to behave well and show proper treatment to the nation, in order to bring the hearts of civilian muslims closer to them. The mujahideen must avoid discrimination based on tribal roots, language or their geographic background."

[faye]

i speculate that if the americans had not gone into afghanistan, that the people may have already gotten rid of the taliban. what proud people would want to live for long under such an oppressive regime?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

bring forth a solution Randolph, this picture has no purpose but to make afghans look like as though they are barbaric.

And Hekmet Karzai appears to have addressed it here:

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...225708920.html


"Third, an important fact the West needs to understand is that there are many different groups that carry out various acts of violence across Afghanistan - and at the end of the day, most of these acts are attributed to the Taliban.
It must also be noted that there are actors who take advantage of this knee-jerk reaction and misuse the identity of the Taliban for their own political purposes. Clear representation of and by the Taliban can put an end to these types of "misunderstandings."

The other issue you and SXE have to deal with, within the framework of SXE's own reference... even if we stretch our imaginations into infinity and assume that the poll he cited can be taken seriously (the one that says Afghans have 90% + confidence in its military)... it notes the Afghan public wants a deal with the Taliban... it doesnt appear to want the SXE option of annihalation of the Taliban. The thing that should startle you is that the survey includes northern provinces that had fought the Taliban tooth and nail.... so the source works against the argument even when considered as legitimate.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

i speculate that if the americans had not gone into afghanistan, that the people may have already gotten rid of the taliban. what proud people would want to live for long under such an oppressive regime?

You get it. This is my point. Every country deserves the right to develop its own innate system and throw out or evolve its own systems in the setting of a governance that is the most in line with what is indigenous. Just as Nathanial Hawthorne overcame the ghosts of his Great grandfather's American Taliban, that burned women alive for being witches.... the sons of Afghanistan and its daughters deserve the right to fight their own battles and evolve without outside interference.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

This debate is fun, but will have to be carried on tomorrow. I hope that when I return there is some real solid evidence and data and not interpretations of the meaning of words. Then the real discussion can begin.

[randolph85]

bring forth a solution Randolph, this picture has no purpose but to make afghans look like as though they are barbaric.

i am not in a position to make solutions, obviously. a picture is a picture. should we not take pictures of a destroyed kabul either because it makes us look barbaric? i am pretty sure pretending stuff like this doesn't happen isnt a solution either.

[randolph85]

And Hekmet Karzai appears to have addressed it here:

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...225708920.html


"Third, an important fact the West needs to understand is that there are many different groups that carry out various acts of violence across Afghanistan - and at the end of the day, most of these acts are attributed to the Taliban.
It must also be noted that there are actors who take advantage of this knee-jerk reaction and misuse the identity of the Taliban for their own political purposes. Clear representation of and by the Taliban can put an end to these types of "misunderstandings."

The other issue you and SXE have to deal with, within the framework of SXE's own reference... even if we stretch our imaginations into infinity and assume that the poll he cited can be taken seriously (the one that says Afghans have 90% + confidence in its military)... it notes the Afghan public wants a deal with the Taliban... it doesnt appear to want the SXE option of annihalation of the Taliban. The thing that should startle you is that the survey includes northern provinces that had fought the Taliban tooth and nail.... so the source works against the argument even when considered as legitimate.

are u denying that the men in that picture are ttp and that they have taken credit for the kidnapping?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

are u denying that the men in that picture are ttp and that they have taken credit for the kidnapping?

They may have. The issue here is whether I agree with you that Mullah Omar sanctioned it. How did they have time to radio in their request when the bajauri boys were crossing the border??? How did the US not intercept Mullah Omar's voice giving the command. It just proves Hekmat Karzai's point.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

This article also appears to expound on what is motivating them:

"Elaborating on the conditions, Maulana Dadullah urged the Pakistani government to release children and women belonging to the TTP, who according to him, were languishing in different jails in the country. He claimed the children and women were being ill treated and subjected to torture in prisons. He asked the government to stop pressing the tribesmen to form lashkars against militants in Bajaur Agency."

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrin...ID=8612&Cat=13