Message Of Felicitation Of The Esteemed Amir-Ul-Momineen On The Occasion Of Eid-Ul-F

[khushal]

You get it. This is my point. Every country deserves the right to develop its own innate system and throw out or evolve its own systems in the setting of a governance that is the most in line with what is indigenous. Just as Nathanial Hawthorne overcame the ghosts of his Great grandfather's American Taliban, that burned women alive for being witches.... the sons of Afghanistan and its daughters deserve the right to fight their own battles and evolve without outside interference.

Its like star trek's the prime directive which dictates that there can be no interference with the internal development of alien civilizations.

This is what conservative economists advise, don't interfere with the economy, let it sort itself out and fix itself.

[khushal]

there's a video..ABC-4corners. 'in their sights'. have a look. i saw it the other night, about the 'kill/capture' tactic and night raids. some afghans say that different tribes are feeding false info to get the aussie army to kill their rivals. it is a sad documenary, as it interviews friends and family of innocent people who have been killed by the australian army.

This has been happening for the past ten years and NATO not recognizing that their intelligence they get from locals is not trust worthy because the locals have rivals and their only interests is to destroy their rivals. The Taliban understand this and they are successful in local politics and NATO neither understands it nor seems to care about it. Many kill/cature targets are innocents and NATO was intentionally fed false info by a rival of the target. The whole program is counter productive to NATO goals.

The problem with NATO is arrogance. They believe these tribesmen are simpletons who deserve no repect. It was this arrogance and naive way of thinking that led them to be fooled by some shop keeper from Quetta pretending to be a Taliban 2nd in command figure. It was this arrogance that have forced NATO to be trapped in a quagmire.

[khushal]

i am not in a position to make solutions, obviously. a picture is a picture. should we not take pictures of a destroyed kabul either because it makes us look barbaric? i am pretty sure pretending stuff like this doesn't happen isnt a solution either.

If you are in a position to criticize than you are in a position to bring forth an alternative and the road map to it. We are well aware of what happens in Afghanistan and the picture you provided is not even close to the horrific things that happen in Afghanistan. But my point is pointing fingers solves nothing. Sure criticism is good, but it has to be constructive, we must explore the "why its happening" as well as the "what is happening."

[ScimitarXEdge]

So what you are saying is that afghan in afghanistan have confidence in the afghan government because I don't and neither do most Americans?

no they're sick of being killed by whacko Paki directed suicide bombers and having a NATO imperialist horde in their backyard. If accepting a government where everyone cooperates without guns drawn, then they'd rather have that than die for Pakistan or America

makes sense to me.

But nur ul aziz portraying the afghan government official as a saint is ridiculous. This man fought hard against the government because he had a reason, he was marginalized.

repeating the same spin theatrics, doesn't make the spin true. He made his intentions clear, Afghans stop dying, that's all I care for.

Taliban defectors dont defect because they have a change of heart,

Says you. You're not only speculating you're interpolating. I'm not saying some don't have other motives, but that doesn't discredit HIS motives.

Funding to lure Taliban defectors stalled
more money = more defections

if that's the case you can argue the reason for Taiban support is similarly for money, which makes sense since Taliban were similarly scoring conscripts for money; which means economic and sociocultural motives lure supporters not Taliban's ideology itself

Taliban offers fighters more money - UPI.com


KABUL, Afghanistan, July 26 (UPI) -- Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan have stepped up recruiting by offering three times the daily pay of the Afghan National Army.

It seems support for Taliban is more based on money than it is for defectors.

You fail to understand the economics of Afghanistan. The country is landlocked with no sustainable economy and its incapable of supporting its people. People fight for economic reasons and people lay down their arms for economic reasons. when you are marginalized, you have been economically sidelined, the afghan's answer to this is putting a gun in your hand and shooting at the ones who has sidelined you until they hear you, when they hear you, you have reason to put down your arms, when they marginalize you again, the cycle continues. Warlordism is created because of this corrupt system. The US policy of creating militias and bribing wannabe warlords is just fueling this corruption. the sincerity of this person or that person has not that much to do with it, the problem is the system not the people. The people are just reacting to the system.

I know why people fight, but that means the Taliban as a government and ideology really have nothing to offer Afghans, anymore so than a U.S. Puppet Government;the lure of money doesn't discredit what Taliban members have exposed about the Taliban, anymore than it would if they defect from the Government.

The point is afghans mainly just want to stop dying and there are people who are ex Taliban who see it the same

[ScimitarXEdge]

And Hekmet Karzai appears to have addressed it here:

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...225708920.html


"Third, an important fact the West needs to understand is that there are many different groups that carry out various acts of violence across Afghanistan - and at the end of the day, most of these acts are attributed to the Taliban.
It must also be noted that there are actors who take advantage of this knee-jerk reaction and misuse the identity of the Taliban for their own political purposes. Clear representation of and by the Taliban can put an end to these types of "misunderstandings."

The other issue you and SXE have to deal with, within the framework of SXE's own reference... even if we stretch our imaginations into infinity and assume that the poll he cited can be taken seriously (the one that says Afghans have 90% + confidence in its military)... it notes the Afghan public wants a deal with the Taliban... it doesnt appear to want the SXE option of annihalation of the Taliban. The thing that should startle you is that the survey includes northern provinces that had fought the Taliban tooth and nail.... ]so the source works against the argument even when considered as legitimate.

I never thought I'd say this, but you're being deliberately intellectually dishonest here

I wrote this

They don't reject the Taliban per se, just what their ideological platform has to offer. If they rejected them, they wouldn't want to reassimilate them back into society.

you wrote this

it notes the Afghan public wants a deal with the Taliban... it doesnt appear to want the SXE option of annihalation of the Taliban

how do you get "annihilation" when I acknowledge that Afghans want them reasssimilated? I would want to see the Taliban leadership brought to trial and the movement itself disbanded but the actual rank and file, rehabilitated if possible.

The thing that should startle you is that the survey includes northern provinces that had fought the Taliban tooth and nail..

That's fine, they're Muslim too, Islam trumps ethnicity or cultural biases. Playing the ethnic card discredits the Taliban more.

so the source works against the argument even when considered as legitimate.

yeah things tend to see that way when you're pulling Toramana argue a point one makes up yourself but has not even the remotest resemblance with whatever the opposing view said.

[graveyardofempires]

I never thought I'd say this, but you're being deliberately intellectually dishonest here

I wrote this




you wrote this


how do you get "annihilation" when I acknowledge that Afghans want them reasssimilated? I would want to see the Taliban leadership brought to trial and the movement itself disbanded but the actual rank and file, rehabilitated if possible.



That's fine, they're Muslim too, Islam trumps ethnicity or cultural biases. Playing the ethnic card discredits the Taliban more.




yeah things tend to see that way when you're pulling Toramana argue a point one makes up yourself but has not even the remotest resemblance with whatever the opposing view said.

in your dreams deviant imperialist supporter.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I never thought I'd say this, but you're being deliberately intellectually dishonest here

I wrote this




you wrote this


how do you get "annihilation" when I acknowledge that Afghans want them reasssimilated? I would want to see the Taliban leadership brought to trial and the movement itself disbanded but the actual rank and file, rehabilitated if possible.



That's fine, they're Muslim too, Islam trumps ethnicity or cultural biases. Playing the ethnic card discredits the Taliban more.




yeah things tend to see that way when you're pulling Toramana argue a point one makes up yourself but has not even the remotest resemblance with whatever the opposing view said.

My apologies if you thought it was intellectually dishonest, but I mean beyond the rank and file, you praid for Omar's death/annhilation. I think you have to produce evidence that the Afghan populace wants this to happen... Moreover, you have to prove that they want it to happen more than they do to Mr. karzai or the other dog washers who, unlike Omar, did nothing against the Russian juggernaut.

Also, the criticism of the data is completely legitimate. Ill give you an example... I just saw a patient with shortness of breath... he's a diabetic... hes got lung disease... but he has risk factors for heart disease. When I set him up for a stress test to determine whether his heart can take on the stress of heavy beating, I gotta make sure that its resting because his LUNG disease can make it so that he cannot exercise through the regimen and potentially be declared a false positive.

The same goes for this survey and for my superior reference... you provided a survey that gives us the ability to draw a few conclusions:
Certain groups of Afghans hate the Taliban (a given)
Enough suspicious data is present to show that these groups love the notoriously corrupt and decrepit Afghan police and Afghan army (interestingly enough the Taliban have been confirmed to have infiltrated that army... with the desertion rate being what it is, Mr. Karzai may very well have a slew of sleeper cells of Taliban under his command without even knowing it! )
The two put together point towards what is obvious... (Northern group data deluges the results)
To confirm this the survey says CLEARLY that hotspots were not surveyed.

This, supplemented with my information derived by sources that HATE the Taliban, that are US Army affiliated, that would NOT benefit from making the Taliban look better, noted that the Taliban are seen as morally superior to Karzai and that the Police and Army are seen as fabulously CORRUPT in these regions.

The issue with your argument is that it hinges on exactly the same argument that Pakistan makes to subvert the Islamist component of the insurgency which is that it is not Islamically ideal enough with Hadhrat Uthman ibn Affan leading it and with Hadrat Abu Bakr Sadiq being its second in command etc. It was the same excuse that the mughals used to halt Khushaal Khan's insurgency which was: hey, arent we all Muslim bros??? So now, the Pashtuns feelings towards the Army and occupation have to be subverted by the farsiwaan component???

[ScimitarXEdge]

in your dreams deviant imperialist supporter.

says the Pakistani Slave

[ScimitarXEdge]

My apologies if you thought it was intellectually dishonest, but I mean beyond the rank and fine, you praid for Omar's death/annhilation. I think you have to produce evidence that the Afghan populace wants this to happen... Moreover, you have to prove that they want it to happen more than they do to Mr. karzai or the other dog washers who, unlike Omar, did nothing against the Russian juggernaut.

you mean that, ok then I retract my statement; yes I do want his end. I don't need evidence that the Afghan populace want this to happen because I never claimed that on the issue of annihilating Mullah Omar. Now you're being intellectually dishonest, but not deliberately.

Also, the criticism of the data is completely legitimate. Ill give you an example... I just saw a patient with shortness of breath... he's a diabetic... hes got lung disease... but he has risk factors for heart disease. When I set him up for a stress test to determine whether his heart can take on the stress of heavy beating, I gotta make sure that its resting because his LUNG disease can make it so that he cannot exercise through the regimen and potentially be declared a false positive

.

Tangent and bad analogy

The same goes for this survey and for my superior reference... you provided a survey that gives us the ability to draw a few conclusions:
Certain groups of Afghans hate the Taliban (a given)

sure I'll give you that, that group seems to be the majority

Enough suspicious data is present to show that these groups love the notoriously corrupt and decrepit Afghan police and Afghan army

suspicion is not debunking though.

(interestingly enough the Taliban have been confirmed to have infiltrated that army... with the desertion rate being what it is, Mr. Karzai may very well have a slew of sleeper cells of Taliban under his command without even knowing it! )

Then many of the army misdoings could in fact be theirs?

The two put together point towards what is obvious... (Northern group data deluges the results)
To confirm this the survey says CLEARLY that hotspots were not surveyed.

Not true if you read the article it says it surveyed 6400 adults in 34 Provinces.

More than 6,400 adults were polled in June and July in all 34 provinces, excluding some dangerous areas.

sorry no biased sample scapegoats here.

plus the article said

Support for a peace process is highest in areas where fighting is the most intense with 89 percent of Afghans in the east, and 85 percent in the southeast and northwest backing reconciliation talks, the survey said

and this

"Respondents were asked whether they think corruption is a major problem, a minor problem or no problem at all in their daily life, their neighborhood, their local authorities, their provincial government and in Afghanistan as a whole," the report said. "The survey shows that the majority of Afghans think that corruption is a major problem in all facets of life and at all levels of government."

which shows this isn't a piece of Pro-Gov propaganda.

This, supplemented with my information derived by sources that HATE the Taliban, that are US Army affiliated, that would NOT benefit from making the Taliban look better, noted that the Taliban are seen as morally superior to Karzai and that the Police and Army are seen as fabulously CORRUPT in these regions.

The source I gave as demonstrated isn't there to make the Government look better. It just tells how Afghans think

The issue with your argument is that it hinges on exactly the same argument that Pakistan makes to subvert the Islamist component of the insurgency which is that it is not Islamically ideal enough with Hadhrat Uthman ibn Affan leading it and with Hadrat Abu Bakr Sadiq being its second in command etc. It was the same excuse that the mughals used to halt Khushaal Khan's insurgency which was: hey, arent we all Muslim bros??? So now, the Pashtuns feelings towards the Army and occupation have to be subverted by the farsiwaan component???

That's not even remotely my argument; the "hey aren't we Muslim" bros argument is what Ashraf is using to legitimize the ISI connection with Taliban.

I'm not even arguing for the Government, I'm saying the people don't love or idealize the Taliban. I'd figure you'd comprehend that but I guess things only settle in by repetition.

[randolph85]

If you are in a position to criticize than you are in a position to bring forth an alternative and the road map to it. We are well aware of what happens in Afghanistan and the picture you provided is not even close to the horrific things that happen in Afghanistan. But my point is pointing fingers solves nothing. Sure criticism is good, but it has to be constructive, we must explore the "why its happening" as well as the "what is happening."

what good will my roadmap do if i am not in a position of power? i can criticize because if it weren't for stupid afghans to begin with, we would all be living in afghanistan today. this instead of fleeing for our lives or for economic opportunity elsewhere.

what did the afghan taliban do to deviants such as the ttp, back when they had power? kidnappers were executed, no matter their position, family name, or connections. this is what made the taliban popular in the first place and why people support the taliban to this day. no afghan will say the taliban were a bright and progressive bunch who brough prosperity to afghanistan but they will say they were a fair group who brought order. 10 years after their ouster they are acting the same as the wild warlords who they ousted and were respected for taking out.

so back to the point here. what would the original taliban do in this situation? they would execute the kidnappers. thats my position and that should be the talibans position.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

now if it was not the ttp who kidnapped these kids, i would love to see where the real official ttp spokesman denies he sent out the message or the central shura deny they have knowledge of this kidnapping.

see thats the problem when people here try to deny the ttps own official "press releases" when they take credit for bombings and all kinds of other evil ****. if in fact these are false claims made by US linked forces that are attributed to the taliban, where the hell are the real taliban to deny that they have taken credit? we both know the taliban are not media shy, especially the ttp. if they want something to be known, they make it known. i wouldn't be surprised if there are some crazy salafis out there denying that this message by mullah omar is legitimate simply because the rhetoric isn't firey enough for them.

To expand on what I said regarding culpability.. I think you are losing site of the forest and trading it for a set of trees.

The issue here is that a massive crime occured which is and was the imperial hegemony in the Muslim world by the West. The massive self inflicted crime has been the Muslim's own hand in perpetuating and furtherning this occupation and tyranny.

Afghanistan itself was a free land and became occupied by an outside power with a goal of subverting Islamic law as its primary objective and harnassing resources as a secondary objective. Yes, in that order.

So now, the original criminal, the perpetrator needs to be turned out as he deprived Afghans and Afghanistan the right of its own natural evolution of a system of governance.

So Mullah Omar, at most is guitly of operating in a theater of war environment where he is fighting guerilla style. Somehow somewhere wikileaks reports that he does daily sajdaay to Hamid Gul... but nonetheless no one else can find or locate him... not even by trailing that crafty Hamid Gul (absurd). To expect Mullah Omar to be able to inflict punishment on a perpetrator for a crime in a province lying far away from where he likely directs from (remember he is high value target number 2) is a request lacking in reality.

The issue here is who is the criminal that comitted the original crime that led to this suffering on a national and world scale. I referenced the evolution and radicalization of the taliban below previously:
----------------------------------------------------
Take a look at the Sikh's view of their survival in Afghanistan before the American invasion:

"The Taliban did not suppress us -- they respected our religion and if we had any problem they would resolve it immediately, let alone delay it until the next day," says Singh.
Some Afghan Hindus were baffled by Western outrage at one Taliban decree -- ordering them to wear a yellow tag to identify their religion -- saying in practical terms it spared their clean-shaven faces from the wrath of the Taliban religious police, who insisted Muslim Afghan men must grow beards."

http://in.reuters.com/article/2010/0...49826020100702

Compare this to the radicalization and treatment afterwards as NATO presence hardened in the region:

http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...-religious-tax

"The Taliban has reportedly beheaded two Sikhs in Pakistan's lawless tribal region bordering Afghanistan and sent the heads to a gurdwara."

--------------------------------------------------------------

So Randolph, I look at the context of the crime and the scenario and view it as the US bears the brunt of the responsibily by setting of the chain of events that led to the unfortunate and bloody Afghan occupation, unleashing Chaos and I say:

out with the occupier... the Afghans will mete out justice to their own (Omar) if need be.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

what good will my roadmap do if i am not in a position of power? i can criticize because if it weren't for stupid afghans to begin with, we would all be living in afghanistan today. this instead of fleeing for our lives or for economic opportunity elsewhere.

what did the afghan taliban do to deviants such as the ttp, back when they had power? kidnappers were executed, no matter their position, family name, or connections. this is what made the taliban popular in the first place and why people support the taliban to this day. no afghan will say the taliban were a bright and progressive bunch who brough prosperity to afghanistan but they will say they were a fair group who brought order. 10 years after their ouster they are acting the same as the wild warlords who they ousted and were respected for taking out.

so back to the point here. what would the original taliban do in this situation? they would execute the kidnappers. thats my position and that should be the talibans position.

Take a look at what i wrote above... it appears you reached the same logical conclusion minus 1 step.

Now go one step further... who unleashed this chaos?
That is the criminal and the occupier.

[Alchemist]

This ****mitar is just a googler.
His reality is based on the internet.
Whatever is the consensus on google, whatever search result is popular, that is what he believes in.
Think about it... a guy who is logged in to this site 24/7, argues over petty nuances "suicide bomber" vs "Taliban Fighter", "Ex-CIA agent" vs "Political Analyst", "Warlord" vs "Ismail Khan" for no other reason but to gratify himself. Arguing with ****mitar is like throwing a ball at a dog.
He is not a real intellectual who has sifted through many books and articles and pondered on the problems of life and reality ...but a googler who only reactively finds data to support his "side" of the "battle".
If you challenge the douchebag on how Democracy is in truth contrary to Islamic teachings, he will find an article by some brainwashed, americanized Muzleem, like himself, to prove that it is not. It's not what is said in the article that is of relevance to him but the mere fact that such a poll or survey or article exists on the net is real enough for him. Whatever escapes him from the net, is in his view, a "conspiracy theory".
Democracy means rule by majority, Islam means rule by the Will of Allah. Democracy is born of a humanist type of idealism where the will of the majority supersedes the will of One, even if that One is Allah. In truth, the consultation part is not for every lay person to dabble in, but only those who are knowledgable, those whom Allah have given hikma. But we know how allergic this douche bag is to Shuyukh and Ulama of deen. Once again, this buffoon is pushing western values in the name of Islam...Ironically, he calls others "intellectually dishonest". But with him, he is only delusional. He is not an intellectual nor is he dishonest, because he doesn't know the truth. All he has is zeal but with no substance. If Democracy is really the answer for Afghanistan, then what he should mean to say that the war on Afghanistan by America has been brought about "democratically". The UN sanctioned it, so the world agreed that bombing afghanistan and the taliban is the right thing to do. So shouldn't this douchebag accept the democratic process of the country that he lives in and accept the decision of the leaders of his country to go to war? Then he calls himself a "logician". He is actually a rationalist, and without common sense and direction and memory, that means his thinking is circular. Which is why his debates are always endless and goes on for days and weeks. He can't remember why he starts one argument in the first place and tries to attack and defend like he is in some chess game.
Sure enough his disgust with suicide bombing is shared by the majority...a majority who are well fed, living in comfort and have access to media and can weigh such actions with a conscious that is habitually sanitized of any guilt by participating in the system it self. Sure enough, from the comfort of his home the one who fancies himself a sword but never been in a battle in his life, would speak a great deal on what tactics are Islamic and which aren't. For such an addict of debates Islam becomes only a cover to shoot from behind of because no one would dare shoot at Islam. But Islam is something one lives and breaths, not one poses to be. Here he hardly love here for his Islam...either he calls you a khariji, or a paki slave or a numbnut fag, or a dishonest intellectual or he is making some sexist remark to a sister. It's not so much that the tactic is of bad taste for him, but the fact that the consensus on google is against the taliban.
If anything he has pigeonhold his own identity... can we call him an Afghan when he can't even speak the language properly, has never been to Afghanistan, nor has much contact with Afghans (save the members on this forum)...then where does this douche bag get off telling everyone else what needs to be done? Where does he get off becoming the expert at reading other people's hearts and understanding the situation in Afghanistan? Because that poll said this and that article said that?
A little humility...and acceptance of his own shortcomings. But generally people in their middle ages don't tend to change tracks easily.
All I know is that if I am 33 years old and I am addicted to arguing on the internet ...take a gun and shoot me...because at least superficially, I am committing a suicide bombing over the net. I am killing my own time and others too...

Salam

[کیش]

If anybody read Plato's "Republic" even Socrates said democracy was one of the worst type of governments, right under a dictatorship. Socrates said the best government is of a Philosopher-King (Khalifah).

[ScimitarXEdge]

This ****mitar is just a googler.
His reality is based on the internet.
Whatever is the consensus on google, whatever search result is popular, that is what he believes in.
Think about it... a guy who is logged in to this site 24/7, argues over petty nuances "suicide bomber" vs "Taliban Fighter", "Ex-CIA agent" vs "Political Analyst", "Warlord" vs "Ismail Khan" for no other reason but to gratify himself. Arguing with ****mitar is like throwing a ball at a dog.
He is not a real intellectual who has sifted through many books and articles and pondered on the problems of life and reality ...but a googler who only reactively finds data to support his "side" of the "battle".
If you challenge the douchebag on how Democracy is in truth contrary to Islamic teachings, he will find an article by some brainwashed, americanized Muzleem, like himself, to prove that it is not. It's not what is said in the article that is of relevance to him but the mere fact that such a poll or survey or article exists on the net is real enough for him. Whatever escapes him from the net, is in his view, a "conspiracy theory".
Democracy means rule by majority, Islam means rule by the Will of Allah. Democracy is born of a humanist type of idealism where the will of the majority supersedes the will of One, even if that One is Allah. In truth, the consultation part is not for every lay person to dabble in, but only those who are knowledgable, those whom Allah have given hikma. But we know how allergic this douche bag is to Shuyukh and Ulama of deen. Once again, this buffoon is pushing western values in the name of Islam...Ironically, he calls others "intellectually dishonest". But with him, he is only delusional. He is not an intellectual nor is he dishonest, because he doesn't know the truth. All he has is zeal but with no substance. If Democracy is really the answer for Afghanistan, then what he should mean to say that the war on Afghanistan by America has been brought about "democratically". The UN sanctioned it, so the world agreed that bombing afghanistan and the taliban is the right thing to do. So shouldn't this douchebag accept the democratic process of the country that he lives in and accept the decision of the leaders of his country to go to war? Then he calls himself a "logician". He is actually a rationalist, and without common sense and direction and memory, that means his thinking is circular. Which is why his debates are always endless and goes on for days and weeks. He can't remember why he starts one argument in the first place and tries to attack and defend like he is in some chess game.
Sure enough his disgust with suicide bombing is shared by the majority...a majority who are well fed, living in comfort and have access to media and can weigh such actions with a conscious that is habitually sanitized of any guilt by participating in the system it self. Sure enough, from the comfort of his home the one who fancies himself a sword but never been in a battle in his life, would speak a great deal on what tactics are Islamic and which aren't. For such an addict of debates Islam becomes only a cover to shoot from behind of because no one would dare shoot at Islam. But Islam is something one lives and breaths, not one poses to be. Here he hardly love here for his Islam...either he calls you a khariji, or a paki slave or a numbnut fag, or a dishonest intellectual or he is making some sexist remark to a sister. It's not so much that the tactic is of bad taste for him, but the fact that the consensus on google is against the taliban.
If anything he has pigeonhold his own identity... can we call him an Afghan when he can't even speak the language properly, has never been to Afghanistan, nor has much contact with Afghans (save the members on this forum)...then where does this douche bag get off telling everyone else what needs to be done? Where does he get off becoming the expert at reading other people's hearts and understanding the situation in Afghanistan? Because that poll said this and that article said that?
A little humility...and acceptance of his own shortcomings. But generally people in their middle ages don't tend to change tracks easily.
All I know is that if I am 33 years old and I am addicted to arguing on the internet ...take a gun and shoot me...because at least superficially, I am committing a suicide bombing over the net. I am killing my own time and others too...

Salam

I like how your contribution to the debate is ONLY about me ..and not the topic or subject being debated.

sounds like you're over compensating for incompetence

I guess you're still razzed by having your Pork Selling, Fast Food employee tail end handed to you in the Evolution thread ONCE again.