Non-Pashtuns independance?

[randolph85]

independence from what? you are able to speak your language, unlike in uzbekistan, are able to practice ur religion unlike in iran, and dont have to worry about being arrested for being a muslim like in tajikistan.

like it or not, ur people have been more free in afghanistan than any other neighboring country.

[IamDZJ]

no i am not okay with it. if a hazara tajik uzbak or pashtun wants his own country for whatever reason, he is more than welcome to pack up and leave for where ever the hell he wants. afghanistan owes nothing to selfish individuals who wants for it to be sliced in to pieces and disintegrate over time in the name of freedom or independence.
people who want khurasaan or loy pakhtunwa so they can have our land and then force our tajiks out of the country to iran or pashtuns to pakistan can continue with their pipe dreams all they want. talk is cheap so it doesn't bother us. should the desire of fulfilling such dreams force one to take actual action upon them, one is more than welcome to meet us in the battle field.

[Gulbabo]

^i likes!

[Shayesta]

Didn't want to involve in this to start with, but for the thread's sake I will contribute my point of view.

First of all, even when Afghanistan was stable there was hardly any movement going in Pakhtunkhwa to join Afghanistan, so those using Afghanistan's current state as an excuse not to join Afghanistan should just stick to Bhangra. If Pukhtoons on both sides had started rebelling against their (permanent?) division from the very beginning then today, like the Balochis and Bangalis, at least there would have been some hope, if no outcome, for our re-unification. But, having said that, we Pukhtoons are type of people who no matter how upset are from their brothers/sisters, we just cannot ignore our other half and that also for a life-time. The government of Pakistan left no smallest chance to picture Pukhtoons of Afghanistan as evil as possible, and they still don't stop trying to create differences between us. Yet, they failed miserably and a big, big example was Pakhtunkhwa's warmth and affection towards every single Afghan from every single ethnic during Afghan-Russian war. We Pukhtoons are inseparable, all we need to do is just realize it! Even if a time comes when Afghanistan is left with no choice than to separate (Khuday Nakhasta!) then no matter what, Pakhtunkhwa won't ditch us, that's 100% confirmed. Though I wonder how Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks will manage themselves on their own. Anyway.

And now as for rest of Afghanistan. We had wars, civil-wars, ethnic division, ethnic hatred, foreign interferences, three decade long of destruction, and what not. But yet, Afghanistan never got divided! It's not that none though of it's division, no. Even Russians realized Pukhtoons by far ain't as smooth and easy-going as the Tajiks, which is why they wanted to start dominating the Northern areas first. Even the Americans see that Tajiks meet their needs in many more aspects as compared to Pukhtoons, which is why even the US has their own plans. And same thoughts had come via Taliban-Northern Alliance when they were thinking of handing over the North to Northern Alliance, and South to Taliban. But tell me, what really happened!? After so, so many tensions we went through, if we didn't divide in our most crucial and painful moments, why would it all of a sudden change after in many parts things seem to cool/settle down? Yes, one thing every Afghan should be wary of is another Taliban-Northern Alliance conflict after US' departed (whenever that is) which will permanently mean an end of Afghanistan, and start of Khorasan-Pukhtunistan-Whateveristan.

And about Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks wanting separation, what do you think, just because their politicians are anti-Pukhtoon they will actually share lands? Even today in parts of Mazar Tajiks and Uzbeks fight over land, in Kunduz Uzbeks-Pukhtoons-Tajiks fight over land, in parts of Hazarajat Hazaras-Pukhtoons-Tajiks fight over land. And not to forget the big one; Kabul? Hazaras first of all haven't got land which is originally theirs, the land they reside in is all invaded. You seriously believe those Tajiks whose lands have been invaded will let go of an amazing beauty like Hazarajat that easily, and that also to Hazaras? Are the Hazaras physically or at least politically strong enough to fight the Tajiks? I don't think so! As for the Uzbeks, Uzbekistan is a million times more developed than 'Turkistan' areas of Afghanistan and believe it or not, they have become more of a Russian than Russians themselves! So on basis of which similarities would Uzbekistan want Afghan Uzbeks to join them? Language only? And same goes for Tajiks, Tajikistan is only ready to do business with Afghanistan and I am not even exaggerating when I say that at least 90% of their singers either copy Afghans, either sing with Afghan singers, either throw concerts for Afghans, and become millionaires that way. Heck, even Afghan singers aren't that rich! It were these very same Tajikistan and Uzbekistan which fenced their borders with Afghanistan as soon as Northern Afghanistan got troubled, remember? As for Iran, they don't even consider Tajiks to be Persians and literally their only concern is Herat, and I don't think I need to prove that ethnically seen Pukhtoons form nearly the same number as Tajiks........

[Gulbabo]

^as shaista said. anyone who is wel aware of the conflicts between hazaras and tajiks, hazaras and uzbeks, tajiks and uzbaks won't put tajiks,uzbaks and hazaras in the same catagory. they have their own issues amongst each other... and getting along with each other is far from reality.

the best choice for all the ethnic groups in Afghanistan is to learn to live with each other... thats it! accept each other's differences

[ComradePashtun]

Kadozadah you are from Tojikistan. You have betrayed Afghanistan and sided with Americans and have spilt the the blood of many Pashtuns.

When Americans leave we are going to deport you back to Tojikistan sat on a donkey facing backward and your legs and hands tied up and your mashkoola hungging around your neck. hahaha

[Nick]

Afghani pashtuns should focus more on their fellow tajiks, uzbeks and hazaras than on us. Pashtuns there are not proving themeselves as nice and responsible magority.
We pashtuns of pakistan wont join afghanistan in near future, so no need of division of afghanistan.

So you were waiting for Anti-Afghans to comment so that you can bring you case in rest.

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

independence from what? you are able to speak your language, unlike in uzbekistan, are able to practice ur religion unlike in iran, and dont have to worry about being arrested for being a muslim like in tajikistan.

like it or not, ur people have been more free in afghanistan than any other neighboring country.

That´s not the case. Non-Pashtuns fought for their own freedom in Afghanistan. Remember, it was Massoud who broke Gulbuddin´s and the royal houses neck. It lead to other wars but at the end non-Pashtuns profite from it. As we can see today. The same stupid thing we can say about Pashtuns. They get not jailed like in Pakistan, they are threatend well, they are not oppressed and don´t get killed for no reasons...so why they wnat to unite with Pakistanis? Wasn´t that your idea to fight Pakistanis in Afghanistan and now you want them? LET´S FOCUS ON THE MAIN TOPIC. Do they non-Pashtuns have the same righst as Pashtuns?

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

no i am not okay with it. if a hazara tajik uzbak or pashtun wants his own country for whatever reason, he is more than welcome to pack up and leave for where ever the hell he wants. afghanistan owes nothing to selfish individuals who wants for it to be sliced in to pieces and disintegrate over time in the name of freedom or independence.
people who want khurasaan or loy pakhtunwa so they can have our land and then force our tajiks out of the country to iran or pashtuns to pakistan can continue with their pipe dreams all they want. talk is cheap so it doesn't bother us. should the desire of fulfilling such dreams force one to take actual action upon them, one is more than welcome to meet us in the battle field.

Good point. I like it. But what do you say about the deep devision in Afghanistan along it´s ethnicities in the society, political stage, education institution etc.? If that goes on at the end the country will devide. What can one do to prevent it and at the same time to keep Pakistanis out of Afghanistan? I mean, Pashtuns can not even leave with eachother right now, how they want to live with Panjabized Pakistani Pathans who differ from them greatly? Some of the brothers here even accuse some high ranking politicians that following such an idea. Also Karzai who want to join with Taliban. Can someone keep Karzai from that plan away or throw him out of the country? Karzai is already playing with the ethnical card and invites Pakistan to Afghanistan. He betrays everyone who want an independant Afghanistan without any Azzam Arab or Jee Pakistani or any slave of Pakistan. I also want to know explecite informations how to keep to independnt people like Uzbeks from that plan away. They have their supports under Turkey, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Russia.

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

I am not even exaggerating when I say that at least 90% of their singers either copy Afghans, either sing with Afghan singers, either throw concerts for Afghans, and become millionaires that way.

lol hahaha damn, they can´t ''copy'' (you mean cover) any song without any permission. And even if they do so, those Farsiwans in Afghanistan are the same as in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan or Iran. They share the same culture, language and identity, such as Pashtuns in Afghanistan share the same culture and identity with Pakistani and Indian or Bengali Pashtuns. That´s why Iran, Tajikistan and Afghanistan are co-working in many bands like Tv programs, education, policy, economy...

Ps: The question was do Hazara people have the right to have their own state Hazaraistan, Tajiks their own and join Tajikistan, Uzbeks ... What shall a Tajik do with a land in Hazarajat (90% Hazaras), except for Bamian and Saghar. Hazaras in Pashtun regions can move to their country. They can sell their lands to anyone.

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

Kadozadah you are from Tojikistan. You have betrayed Afghanistan and sided with Americans and have spilt the the blood of many Pashtuns.

When Americans leave we are going to deport you back to Tojikistan sat on a donkey facing backward and your legs and hands tied up and your mashkoola hungging around your neck. hahaha

Sorry brother, but that is what Pashtun brothers did and do ... ''Muslim'' omes, the communists, the maoists, jihadists, the american ones ... From Wardak to Khalilzad and Karzai. They all want US staying in Afghanistan. Rahim Wardak was even an CIA agent ... but keep pointing your own faults and blood drinking on others. That´s an aspect of many Pashtuns where they are very good in.

[asif86]

I have a solution. Despite I love my Hazara and Uzbek brothers I am forced to say this since you bring up this Bs argument.
Hazaras they can go back to Mongolia its still beautiful land,

There was no Khorasan its a fact just a geographical name people were stuck with it, just as Afghan race in Paksitan stuck with the word "Pathan".
Also since Tajik stock came after Mongolian era as well as their looks with Turkic its ok to say they can go to Mongolia, Turkistan, or move to Iran where the name still servived. But that's not a solution you are speaking for us Farsiwans as well? why? can't we just kick the immigrants back to Tajikistan where the came, and God I hate Abdur Rahman for his anti-Russian BS of allowing these Turkic Persian speakers.

Anyways the Uzbeks can go any time back, but the problem is they are stuck in afghanistan from business, culture and even their dialect is different from nothern Uzbeks. I think they would be ok to stay, and gave the land back to Pashtun Kochi tribe who lost their land of "Summer" to these immigrants.

But the pashtuns came from Sulaiman Mountains which is in pakistan and going by your logic they should also go back.Pashtuns were even imported from india to increase pashtun strength in afghanistan.

[Shayesta]

Non-Pashtuns fought for their own freedom in Afghanistan.

Really? When?

Remember, it was Massoud who broke Gulbuddin´s and the royal houses neck.

Really? How?

It lead to other wars but at the end non-Pashtuns profite from it.

Really? Tell me more about it!

They get not jailed like in Pakistan, they are threatend well, they are not oppressed and don´t get killed for no reasons.

Uh, yeah and that's because ever since Afghanistan's existence we have had Pukhtoon rulers. Duh!

Do they non-Pashtuns have the same righst as Pashtuns?

You tell me, do they!? And since you are (obviously) gonna say no, then why not?

But what do you say about the deep devision in Afghanistan along it´s ethnicities in the society, political stage, education institution etc.? If that goes on at the end the country will devide.

This has been going on for a very long time now, did Afghanistan divide?

What can one do to prevent it and at the same time to keep Pakistanis out of Afghanistan?

Keep Iranian influence out as well.

I mean, Pashtuns can not even leave with eachother right now,

You mean Pashtuns cannot get along with each other? Don't worry, if not politically then at least individually we are much more united than your fellow Persian brothers.

how they want to live with Panjabized Pakistani Pathans who differ from them greatly?

Punjabized Pakistani Pathans? Just like how Afghan Tajiks became Pukhtunized Afghan Parsiwan? Gimmi a break! And Pakistani Pukhtoons differ from Afghan Pukhtoons? Dude, we are speaking of Pukhtoons here, not Iranians-Tajiks.

Also Karzai who want to join with Taliban. Can someone keep Karzai from that plan away or throw him out of the country?

As long as dogs in the name of Dostum, Fahim, Abdullah and Khalili are in Afghanistan, puppies like Karzai will be nowhere close to be thrown out. Cheers.

Karzai is already playing with the ethnical card and invites Pakistan to Afghanistan. He betrays everyone who want an independant Afghanistan

Oh yeah, Northern Alliance is supporting NATO for Afghanistan's independence!?

I also want to know explecite informations how to keep to independnt people like Uzbeks from that plan away.

They have their supports under Turkey, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Russia.

ROFL, and that's according to you 'independence'!?

they can´t ''copy'' (you mean cover) any song without any permission.

I am not speaking of permission or illegal, I am speaking of copying, literally copying of which Shabnam Soraya is queen of.

And even if they do so, those Farsiwans in Afghanistan are the same as in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan or Iran.

LOL, I would love to see reaction on Iranians' face when you tell them whatever you just said, anyway. Whether they are same or not is not the point, the point is they are only interested in doing business with Afghanistan, blood-brotherhood means nothing to them; Period.

That´s why Iran, Tajikistan and Afghanistan are co-working in many bands like Tv programs, education, policy, economy...

India is the biggest help when it comes to programmes, education, economy and etcetera, does it mean they are doing it for brotherhood or interest? Yup, you got it.

But the pashtuns came from Sulaiman Mountains which is in pakistan and going by your logic they should also go back.

Oh no, more Khorasanis in action!

Pashtuns were even imported from india to increase pashtun strength in afghanistan.

And Mongolians, Turkish and Arabs must have been imported to increase Persian strength!?

[ComradePashtun]

Sorry brother, but that is what Pashtun brothers did and do ... ''Muslim'' omes, the communists, the maoists, jihadists, the american ones ... From Wardak to Khalilzad and Karzai. They all want US staying in Afghanistan. Rahim Wardak was even an CIA agent ... but keep pointing your own faults and blood drinking on others. That´s an aspect of many Pashtuns where they are very good in.

I don't think that is the case. Constant whinning, logical fallacy, lying, faking, back-stabbing is patahlogical to the likes of you. You have demostrated that very well here in this forum. We hardly care about the likes of you nor give you much importance in this forum. Obviously Pashtun will dominate every shade of politics in Afghanistan which is normal. Khalilzad a influential neo-con says much about Pashtuns on the international stage, and Karzai and Wardak you president and defence minister reinforces Pashtun dominance in even under most disadvantage time and circumstance. Non of them want U.S. staying in Afghanistan but all I hear and see in Afghan TV is Tajik rosshan fikran/intellectual mediocres like you who are santioning it forcefuly and desperately.

At the end of the day, they are politicians just the likes of bandits who you admire and have to play along and do what is in their interest and in interest of Afghanistan. But this doesn't disprove that the likes of you under the shadow of of American have wrought so much on Pashtuns which you will be liable for one day. You talk big because of foreign protection, otherwise you would've been a bacha berish if Taliban were still around.

As for your thread, I am telling you that if you really were capable doing what you could then you would be the last person to come here and ask us about our opinion regarding the fate of Afghanistan. I will tell that all power to you and do what it in your power. But you can't do crap, you are all talk.

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

Really? When?

You can´t ask when. Because it was always an issue. That´s why your houses are Dari-speakings, including the former royal family´s court and still dominate. Non-Pashtun culture, language and identity is bounded with it´s neighbours. You can leave your sarcasm.

Really? How?

Inform yourself about the multiple events from 70 to 74.

Really? Tell me more about it!

Yes, of course. After Soviet occupation still the war was going on and the war is still going on. The so called majority suffer from illiteracy, hunger, not having electricy, not having any security ... instead living side to side with the enemies who installed themself in Pakistan and in south-eastern Afghanistan. While the north (70% of all funds are used in the south!!!) is flourishing. It´s markets, it´s people in the sense of education, freedom, self-determination, minorities like Hazaras and Uzbeks flood the scools and universities ... etc. New political factions were created, new local security powers came to life, ANA´s base is in North, the NA could heal it´s injuries for a future Taliban/Pakistan/Arab intervene .... of course there is stilla lot that have to be done but in a country like Afghanistan it is not possible to succes everything in only one day.

Uh, yeah and that's because ever since Afghanistan's existence we have had Pukhtoon rulers. Duh!

Oh yeah? That´s your ignorance. Read the following second pages on the link below.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-11/fake-real-future-maps-pashtunlands-17436/index32.html

You were never rulers. You were ruled like tools by foreigners or your entire ''rule'' was based on non-Pashtun shoulders. http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...6/index11.html read only my comments to your ignorant claims and ''pride''. Possibly you will have some conclusion. Foreigners were using Pashtuns versus Pashtuns and yet you call yourself as rulers. A ruler is souveran. Compare your rules and that of others.

You tell me, do they!? And since you are (obviously) gonna say no, then why not?

If you give them their rights, their rights as Hazaras, Uzbeks, Baluchs which are not a branch of Pashtuns, I recommend it and appreciate that. A noble decision.

This has been going on for a very long time now, did Afghanistan divide?

There was no devision before 1992 because all population had a cause to fight united, at least they thought. And before Russian intervene so called Mullahs were propagating kings are god chosen. And before the time of Pashtun nationalism the days were different than 1903 where oppression of non-Pashtuns directly started. Beeing replaced from government, power, military, schools ... that caused also that a wider part of all Afghanistan became dumb for many decades, even among the royal house. They were for studing in foreign countries but came back as uneducated and unqualified personalities. That caused the death of Zahir´s father, the empowering of non-Pashtuns and their allies, such as Kohadamni people and Parwan.

Keep Iranian influence out as well

Which influence? You forget that Hazaras are Shias, such as 10? of Tajiks. Your forget that Dari-speaking and Hazaragi-Dari speaking people are bounded to Iran, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan such as you are related with Pakistan. We had never brought any foreign influence to Afghanistan. There were no Arabs, Turks, Chechens, Pakis or whatever. The fact is that these people have a language and a culture that were worked on for centuries if not millenias and both were always rooted to the region, while Pashtu have not such a history and statue. That´s all the secret behind it. Those who worked for Pashtun culture and language were mostly ''Pakistanis'' such as Khushal Khan Khattak or Abdul Rahman Baba.

* You mean Pashtuns cannot get along with each other? Don't worry, if not politically then at least individually we are much more united than your fellow Persian brothers.

* Punjabized Pakistani Pathans? Just like how Afghan Tajiks became Pukhtunized Afghan Parsiwan? Gimmi a break! And Pakistani Pukhtoons differ from Afghan Pukhtoons? Dude, we are speaking of Pukhtoons here, not Iranians-Tajiks.

ha ha ha sister Jan, you need to discuss logical, political and geographical not emotional. Who are those high ISI generals, commanders, servants, Taliban who kill Pashtun children? Panjabis? :role eyes:

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Oh yeah, Northern Alliance is supporting NATO for Afghanistan's independence!?

The NA is since 2002 neutral. They prepare themself for future after Karzai-Taliban co-working. At the moment the ANA unde Gn. Zazai, Khattak, Wardak ... are operating in east and south Afghanistan and they even want NATO to stay there and build permanent bases for the US. Don´t try to blame others when yourself are the victim-makers.

I am not speaking of permission or illegal, I am speaking of copying, literally copying of which Shabnam Soraya is queen of.

Shabnam Suraya belong to the same group as Afshin, Googoosh and Taher Shubab, Qader Esphari, Amir Jan Saburi belong... what is your content? If you make such a differences between them than why not between Pakistanis and Pashtuns of Afghanistan? Can´t see any logic and that thinking.

LOL, I would love to see reaction on Iranians' face when you tell them whatever you just said, anyway. Whether they are same or not is not the point, the point is they are only interested in doing business with Afghanistan, blood-brotherhood means nothing to them; Period.

Isn´t that the interests of all nations? If not making buisness how to have a market? But since the topic is non-Pashtuns independance you shouldn´t worry on that. I guess Farsiwans of Afghanistan would join Tajikistan to one greater country.

India is the biggest help when it comes to programmes, education, economy and etcetera, does it mean they are doing it for brotherhood or interest? Yup, you got it.

Of course they do. They have their interests in Afghanistan, their economical interests (gas and electricity and other natural resources) and political interests (Pakistan/Saud Arabia). That´s their right. Farsiwans of Afganistan and Central Asia share a lot with Indians and even with Pakistanis. Farsiwans took their culture and civilisation to India which gave the Indian Muslims a new identity.

Deera manana