Pakistan's PM, DG ISI and COAS visit to Afghanistan

[graveyardofempires]

I totally respect you Barakzai lala but on this one you are slightly wrong.
Achakzai and Asfandyar party might be corrupt to some levels but they are the ones shouting Lar Aw bar Afghan which in my opinion gives them crdibility.They make sense and give voice to Pukhtane in Pukhtunkhwa.So it is not that black and white.


you show us the picture of him with MQM leader? so what is wrong to talk to the opposition to end ethnic tensions ,it probably didnt work,but that picture doesnt mean he support them in killing pukhtane,the same goes for the picture with najib.

you ask if karzai will be leading this movement?Wrora karzai is not that important as one makes him,he is too preoccupied with his own survival and he cries that he doesnt want his son to be living abroad and wants his son to be in educated in kabul.

[Bengal_Tiger]

The ANP and PMAP are dealing with the reality of Pakhtoons on the ground, including:

- Protecting Pakhtoons in Lahore.

- Protecting Pakhtoons in Karachi.

- Helping IDPs.

- Implementing Pashto-language education in Pakhtunkhwa.

Pointless cyber-arguments are trivial compared to actually helping Pakhtoons with their real problems.

[khyaal]

LOOOL, still stuck in the box huh? Look Khyaal, your objectives dont make sense. Like I said, you appear to be pitching the following scam to the rural Afghans and your fellow Pakistanis in KP. You are welcome to tell me where I am wrong in this narrative:

Khyaal's narrative.
1) Pashtuns in KP are upset. In fact, they are so upset that they are waiting for someone, in fact anyone to swoop in and save them from the Panjab. Seriously, they honestly in the overwhelming majority want to be a part of Afghanistan right NOW. In fact, they want to be a part of Mr. Karzai's Afghanistan and not at all a part of Mullah Omar's Afghanistan.

2) The Panjabatron master is so powerful that all dissent is crushable by his hand. That super human that we malign as a dispicable, dark brown, inferior race short creature that speaks urdoo is what is actually the only wedge between lar and bar... there is absolutely no way that there might generally be a mass of Pashtuns content with the status quo. Therefore, we must at all costs destroy Panjabatron the great dark lord of the East. Wait though, thats not all, its also Arabimaximus, the Lord of the Oil Peninsula that keeps us down as well. He and Panjabatron are holding hands and dancing on the ashes of Pashtun blood in the KP.

So like a damsel in distress, the KP Pashtun needs the big burly Tom, **** and Harry of the American Empire to swoop in and smash Panjabatron so that we can stealthily bring lar and bar together. Because, you know, America has always done right by the Pashtuns in all circumstances.

3) Even if America is not willing to free the KP Pashtuns from their hegamaniacal masters, the Panjabies, why we ought to let them strengthen Hamid Bibi's hand... because a strong Afghanistan under Karzai will one day seize its prior assetts. But dont worry, it will do so bloodlessly.
------------------------------------------------------
This is exactly where I agree with both Manzerah and BLS saib simultaneously. Both have divergent views on the fate of KP and both ask eachother: who are you to speak on behalf of KP Pashtuns? With that question being asked, I honestly believe it is important to understand KP Pashtuns at the ground level without the rejoinder and the typical cop out response that you offer: data collection is impossible.

All that shows me is you have a fear that the data wont support your narrative that you pitch above.

Forgive me if I refuse to accept your word and the word of anyone, whether they be Manzerah as an Islamist, BLS as a moderate, Toramana a secularist, or any of these folks that claim to speak for KP Pashtuns and what they want.

I have to date interacted with about 30 or so Khybar medical grads. And to my surprise, all of them were invested in Pakistan. I had debates and back and forths with them regarding the interchangability of the words Afghan and Pashtun. It took literally 1 hour and multiple text references to get through their thick (but very smart) skulls.

This is but a small sample size. Having seen the diversity if view points, I refuse to accept your narrative, or the typical narrative that even Afghan Mellat sells under Ahady regarding a mass of Pashtuns awaiting their freedom at the hands of an Afghan National Army.

You have utterly failed in all your attempts to provide meaningful dialogue or data. And I will continue to demand it from you as I refuse to accept neoconservativesque style banterings.

The injustice you do to yourself is that those armed with reality are much more capable of pragmatic and practical thought processes and strategic thinking to realize their goals. In this way, and in many others, you fail. Its a component of your inability to critically think about your environment. Its really no different than democrats here in the US that believe Obama can do no wrong. Its just a sales pitch that falls on nonexistent ears.

I think I was too naive that I wasted my so much time in pursuing a utopia of getting one day united with azad afghanistan. I'm extremely thankful to you for opening my eyes. LOL

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I totally respect you Barakzai lala but on this one you are slightly wrong.
Achakzai and Asfandyar party might be corrupt to some levels but they are the ones shouting Lar Aw bar Afghan which in my opinion gives them crdibility.They make sense and give voice to Pukhtane in Pukhtunkhwa.So it is not that black and white.


you show us the picture of him with MQM leader? so what is wrong to talk to the opposition to end ethnic tensions ,it probably didnt work,but that picture doesnt mean he support them in killing pukhtane,the same goes for the picture with najib.

you ask if karzai will be leading this movement?Wrora karzai is not that important as one makes him,he is too preoccupied with his own survival and he cries that he doesnt want his son to be living abroad and wants his son to be in educated in kabul.

Graveyard they are not genuine people. Messiaah Isaa Bin Maryam is once quoted to have said, and the Islamic liturgical literature supports this: a kingdom built on falsities shall collapse in on itself. In this same way, whatever comes ought to represent the will of the masses on both sides. Bloodshed should only come when absolutely necessary. Purchasing unity to create a secular state that defies the will of the people is hegemony at its worst.

You, and those like you, are the future of the Afghanistan and of the Pashtuns. It is neither men abroad like me, nor these pawns of the game like Karzai and Achekzai that dance to the piper's tune.

Moreover, truth must be ascertained at all costs. As a youth I lived for the tales of unity and trust me, you know as well as I, that we are raised on Ahmad Shah Baba's tales as much as baby's milk. But when you go there and you see the situation you realize a few things:

1) KP proper is more developed at this juncture than southern Afghanistan. I had the chance to view the medical infrastructure even reaching into FATA. The general populace there was focused more on obtaining degrees and using the KP schools as a spring board to come here to the US than on these discussions between lar and bar and unity.

2) The culture of KP proper is unique and FATA is not as influenced as it. It is a blend of multiple recent conquerers having had the chance to influence the land and its people. I actually heard one female medical student, the daughter of some official, lament how the British ought to never have left and we would have benefited on the other side of the line had the British built our school systems in Kabul and Nangrahar. Rubbish, pure rubbish i thought.

With this is mind, one has to have a practical plan in place. If someone tells me that KP Pashtuns are awaiting the Pashtun messiah to unit lar and bar, I want evidence. Its the same as if someone tells me that all of southern Afghanistan wants Taliban rule. I demand the evidence for that assertion as well.

Why is this important? Pashtun unity becomes an oxymoron of a word if the unity is purchased with force and blood.

Read the above commentary on Achekzai and his activities. He killed an Afghan who threatend to take the Achekzai loyalities across the dividing line with him. This was an ISI contrived plan in and of itself. He serves as their agent.

Finally, look at the organization mapping of generational ANP/PMAP leadership. Its blue print strongly resembles that of PPP and other parties in pakistan. Namely, it is feudalistic and completely lacks the Islamic meritocratic approaches that the both modernism and Islam advocate for. How is that the son of Abdul Samad earned this leadership spot? How is that Bacha, for all the talk he did, left the party in the hands of his descendents? The infusion of fresh blood and life and a meritocracy is far superior and much more Islamic than this trash.

Regarding Karzai, he is absolutely an important player in the game. He represents all that is wrong with the Afghan elite. As Afghans were bleeding and dying, he, like the other elites fled his country to save his own skin. Then, he slithered back in to take hold of leadership without earning it. Once again, there is no meritocracy in this. He is representative of a band of westernized effeminate elitists who basically could no productive work here... so he decided that he was the most fit man to teach "the barbarians" secularism, and democratic government. All the while, he plays a game where he attempts to make Afghans think he cares at all about civilian deaths... and he makes a fuss about it... then immediatly steps back into line when Khalilzaad and his cronies tell him to pipe down.

[khyaal]

Graveyard they are not genuine people. Messiaah Isaa Bin Maryam is once quoted to have said, and the Islamic liturgical literature supports this: a kingdom built on falsities shall collapse in on itself. In this same way, whatever comes ought to represent the will of the masses on both sides. Bloodshed should only come when absolutely necessary. Purchasing unity to create a secular state that defies the will of the people is hegemony at its worst.

You, and those like you, are the future of the Afghanistan and of the Pashtuns. It is neither men abroad like me, nor these pawns of the game like Karzai and Achekzai that dance to the piper's tune.

Moreover, truth must be ascertained at all costs. As a youth I lived for the tales of unity and trust me, you know as well as I, that we are raised on Ahmad Shah Baba's tales as much as baby's milk. But when you go there and you see the situation you realize a few things:

1) KP proper is more developed at this juncture than southern Afghanistan. I had the chance to view the medical infrastructure even reaching into FATA. The general populace there was focused more on obtaining degrees and using the KP schools as a spring board to come here to the US than on these discussions between lar and bar and unity.

2) The culture of KP proper is unique and FATA is not as influenced as it. It is a blend of multiple recent conquerers having had the chance to influence the land and its people. I actually heard one female medical student, the daughter of some official, lament how the British ought to never have left and we would have benefited on the other side of the line had the British built our school systems in Kabul and Nangrahar. Rubbish, pure rubbish i thought.

With this is mind, one has to have a practical plan in place. If someone tells me that KP Pashtuns are awaiting the Pashtun messiah to unit lar and bar, I want evidence. Its the same as if someone tells me that all of southern Afghanistan wants Taliban rule. I demand the evidence for that assertion as well.

Why is this important? Pashtun unity becomes an oxymoron of a word if the unity is purchased with force and blood.

Read the above commentary on Achekzai and his activities. He killed an Afghan who threatend to take the Achekzai loyalities across the dividing line with him. This was an ISI contrived plan in and of itself. He serves as their agent.

Finally, look at the organization mapping of generational ANP/PMAP leadership. Its blue print strongly resembles that of PPP and other parties in pakistan. Namely, it is feudalistic and completely lacks the Islamic meritocratic approaches that the both modernism and Islam advocate for. How is that the son of Abdul Samad earned this leadership spot? How is that Bacha, for all the talk he did, left the party in the hands of his descendents? The infusion of fresh blood and life and a meritocracy is far superior and much more Islamic than this trash.

Regarding Karzai, he is absolutely an important player in the game. He represents all that is wrong with the Afghan elite. As Afghans were bleeding and dying, he, like the other elites fled his country to save his own skin. Then, he slithered back in to take hold of leadership without earning it. Once again, there is no meritocracy in this. He is representative of a band of westernized effeminate elitists who basically could no productive work here... so he decided that he was the most fit man to teach "the barbarians" secularism, and democratic government. All the while, he plays a game where he attempts to make Afghans think he cares at all about civilian deaths... and he makes a fuss about it... then immediatly steps back into line when Khalilzaad and his cronies tell him to pipe down.

Yeah only those Ghabizi who openly work for the ISI are genuine people. I'm out of the matrix now. LOL

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I think I was too naive that I wasted my so much time in pursuing a utopia of getting one day united with azad afghanistan. I'm extremely thankful to you for opening my eyes. LOL

There is no issue with pursuing a goal Khyaal. Its about how one chases it. If one wants a violent uprising, one wants to ensure that when he picks up the gun, and when he promises that 100 of his colleagues will join his lashkaar, that when the day comes, 1 person doesnt step forward and 99 step backwards.

There is a not a person here, except an unsavory few, namely Karachi or Roadrunner as an example, that wants to preserve the Pakistan confederacy.

That is not my goal at all. However, right now you have two masters on your head: Zardari on the left and Karzai/NATO on the right. This spectical and foolish narrative about a group of Arabs holding the noose around your neck sounds foolish.

Your goals should be no comprimise, no way, no how. Your talk should target the heavy amounts of corruption inherent in KP proper. I found it repulsive that KP medical students had to have me sign off on forms because Khybar's deans were upset that their medical students (usually the poorer ones that could not pay bribes) were going abroad and potentially earning more money than the deans. I found it repulsive that the folks coming from Aga Khan were the sons and daughters of the various elites in Swabi and Nowshera and they openly advertized this fact.

Instead of perpetuating the status quo you should take ahold of God's rope and take back Islam from the Panjab nexus. Why should they be able to utilize religion for their goals? If Pashtuns are dying for God's cause then they have the greater right to that language and to protecting its adherents.

Regarding Pakistan, why are you thinking so small? Why should the Panjab retain its assets, nuclear and non, when Pashtuns serve as a significant contingent of the army and irregulars dying in Kashmir. The ideal situation would be one where the strong hand of the Pashtun wares down NATO in a war of attrition and takes Kabul and then turns its head toward Lahore and the Panjab.

However, these measures take practical thought. The brain washing that has been done in KP where you meet simple and innocent people that somehow idiotically have feality to both Bhutto and Musharraf at the same time is absurd. One old man told his comrade there, when the latter criticized Musharraf: "waaa mulk e dharlaa saaam krooo!" It will take years of effort to undo this damage.

And let me me ask you, was this the language of Islam that Pak TV was utilizing to brainwash these folks into patriotism and jingoism? Not at all. In fact, the new word that Pakistanis use for the FATA folks is simply... you guessed it... terrorist. How sad.

[graveyardofempires]

Graveyard they are not genuine people. Messiaah Isaa Bin Maryam is once quoted to have said, and the Islamic liturgical literature supports this: a kingdom built on falsities shall collapse in on itself. In this same way, whatever comes ought to represent the will of the masses on both sides. Bloodshed should only come when absolutely necessary. Purchasing unity to create a secular state that defies the will of the people is hegemony at its worst.

You, and those like you, are the future of the Afghanistan and of the Pashtuns. It is neither men abroad like me, nor these pawns of the game like Karzai and Achekzai that dance to the piper's tune.

Moreover, truth must be ascertained at all costs. As a youth I lived for the tales of unity and trust me, you know as well as I, that we are raised on Ahmad Shah Baba's tales as much as baby's milk. But when you go there and you see the situation you realize a few things:

1) KP proper is more developed at this juncture than southern Afghanistan. I had the chance to view the medical infrastructure even reaching into FATA. The general populace there was focused more on obtaining degrees and using the KP schools as a spring board to come here to the US than on these discussions between lar and bar and unity.

2) The culture of KP proper is unique and FATA is not as influenced as it. It is a blend of multiple recent conquerers having had the chance to influence the land and its people. I actually heard one female medical student, the daughter of some official, lament how the British ought to never have left and we would have benefited on the other side of the line had the British built our school systems in Kabul and Nangrahar. Rubbish, pure rubbish i thought.

With this is mind, one has to have a practical plan in place. If someone tells me that KP Pashtuns are awaiting the Pashtun messiah to unit lar and bar, I want evidence. Its the same as if someone tells me that all of southern Afghanistan wants Taliban rule. I demand the evidence for that assertion as well.

Why is this important? Pashtun unity becomes an oxymoron of a word if the unity is purchased with force and blood.

Read the above commentary on Achekzai and his activities. He killed an Afghan who threatend to take the Achekzai loyalities across the dividing line with him. This was an ISI contrived plan in and of itself. He serves as their agent.

Finally, look at the organization mapping of generational ANP/PMAP leadership. Its blue print strongly resembles that of PPP and other parties in pakistan. Namely, it is feudalistic and completely lacks the Islamic meritocratic approaches that the both modernism and Islam advocate for. How is that the son of Abdul Samad earned this leadership spot? How is that Bacha, for all the talk he did, left the party in the hands of his descendents? The infusion of fresh blood and life and a meritocracy is far superior and much more Islamic than this trash.

Regarding Karzai, he is absolutely an important player in the game. He represents all that is wrong with the Afghan elite. As Afghans were bleeding and dying, he, like the other elites fled his country to save his own skin. Then, he slithered back in to take hold of leadership without earning it. Once again, there is no meritocracy in this. He is representative of a band of westernized effeminate elitists who basically could no productive work here... so he decided that he was the most fit man to teach "the barbarians" secularism, and democratic government. All the while, he plays a game where he attempts to make Afghans think he cares at all about civilian deaths... and he makes a fuss about it... then immediatly steps back into line when Khalilzaad and his cronies tell him to pipe down.

Wrora i agree with you
and this is also what im stressing,Im not taking these leaders as massiahs or saviors of pukhtane cuz i too can see that they are sitting in their mansions while colonistaion and drone attacks happen.They are too worried about their own heads.I agree that what makes them to be party leaders? "just cuz they are sons of those who established it".

having said that,still to me it doesnt mean that those motivated people who may admit to one of these parties dont have genuine belief and aspirations.

[khyaal]

graveyardofemires! Never ever get deceived by the lies he concocted about these honorable people. One is my co-villager with whom I politically differ and Mashar Mahmood khan is the most honest person in the whole history of Paki politics. Ask any one. There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of investment has been made in this person. He is surely on the payroll.

[graveyardofempires]

graveyardofemires! Never ever get deceived by the lies he concocted about these honorable people. One is my co-villager with whom I politically differ and Mashar Mahmood khan is the most honest person in the whole history of Paki politics. Ask any one. There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of investment has been made in this person. He is surely on the payroll.

Wrora
barakzaiabdali me and you are in the same boat and we ought to work to clear up the misconceptions.
He criticises these leaders and me and you should agree that they could do more for Pukhtane ,for example raising the question of drone attacks and military ops in Pukhtunkhwa.

I understand your point that these leaders are most honest when one takes a look at the pakistani politics.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Wrora i agree with you
and this is also what im stressing,Im not taking these leaders as massiahs or saviors of pukhtane cuz i too can see that they are sitting in their mansions while colonistaion and drone attacks happen.They are too worried about their own heads.I agree that what makes them to be party leaders? "just cuz they are sons of those who established it".

having said that,still to me it doesnt mean that those motivated people who may admit to one of these parties dont have genuine belief and aspirations.

That is true. i dont think Khyaal is not being genuine. I think that folks are passionate for the cause. However, the ANP/PMAP charter is a problem. Here is why:

I have yet to figure it out... but the central tenant of theirs is this belief that religion is the opiate of the masses. In the case of the Pashtuns they believe that it is the amphetamine of the masses (i.e. it psychs Pashtuns up for war on behalf of other players to their lack of benefit). So then either unwittingly or because their group is dominated by people that actually have this belief system, they attempt to degrade the place of religion in the heart and mind of the Pashtun. They believe that by decoupling the pashtun from Islamic fervor they can save him from being a pawn in the game of greater powers out there. A part of their thesis is correct... there were undoubtedly wahaabi seminaries that Saudi funded. My father in law from Waziristan tells me that the madarassahs in his youth used to provide some valuable life skills as well as Islamic knowledge and what has come in its place is much more oriented toward creating soldiers, and he falls on the conservative side of things.

Instead, the ANP/PMAP needs to seize the intiative. Those members of the party that are basically equivalents of PPP and MQM acolytes that have posters of AChekzai and Ajmaal Khattak and Asfandyaar hanging in their prayer rooms (instead of BBhutto and that MQM leader clown) need to ask themselves what have these folks done for them? Why should these individuals secure the right to lead? Why should the Panjab nexus have the monoply on religion as the vehicle of mobilization? These are important questions. If the Republican party in the US is careful enough to tap into religious sentiments without attempting to decouple religion from the masses, you would think an indigenous party would do the same.

Instead, it antagonizes religion as if it were a plague. It uses the false language of untolerant secularism/ataturkism that is even quiet foreign to America, and hoists it on its people. So waht it does is it offers the huddled Pashtun masses the choices between Salafism versus Kamalism. That is an idiotic situation to be in.

And the proof of their treachery is how they deal with folks like Hakimullah Mehsud who actually does attack government installations. Some non proof based narrative is contrived about him being the tool of the ISI. And Achekzai has yet to attack a single Panjabi army installation, yet he is labeled a hero.

Failed ideas make failed states. Mark my words, in a decade you will see the same propaganda like stale bread from the same mouths Graveyard. They will get the KP Pashtuns not a step closer to bringing down the dividing line.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...unistan-11941/

[BarakzaiAbdali]

graveyardofemires! Never ever get deceived by the lies he concocted about these honorable people. One is my co-villager with whom I politically differ and Mashar Mahmood khan is the most honest person in the whole history of Paki politics. Ask any one. There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of investment has been made in this person. He is surely on the payroll.

Predictable. And the Tribal Analysis Center's commentary, despite that source Shayesta provided unwittingly undid Toramana's criticism of the group, was Pakistani payrolled too right? Into Virginia? The professors are all American and not a dime comes from pakistan. That was their commentary on Murderin Mehmood. Sorry to break wide open your false dreams and expose your false prophet, but there are many minor dajjals in life wrorra. I cannot help but speak the truth, even if it hurts you.

[khyaal]

graveyardofemires! Never believe him, he is using religion as a bait to deceive innocent afghans just as Punjab used it during the partition of India to keep Pashtuns of the British occupied Pakhtunkhwa colonized. If he could show you his real identity, trace his profile upto his village, I hope things will become clear to you.

[khyaal]

graveyardofemires! Don't ever get deceived, he is just another Lawrence of Arabia. He is exploiting your honesty towards Islam and also your innocence.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

graveyardofemires! Don't ever get deceived, he is just another Lawrence of Arabia. He is exploiting your honesty towards Islam and also your innocence.

Its "empires." I like gye well enough, but trust me, I was addressing you, not him. Its you that has the weaker mind amongst you two and I have no need to convince or lure him or make him admit anything. He is welcomed to disagree with everything I say. It neither hurts me nor benefits me. He is not a child though.

Btw, you exactly gave us the proof positive of what I wrote above LOOOOL. Your tact and your style played right into what I wrote:

"That is true. i dont think Khyaal is not being genuine. I think that folks are passionate for the cause. However, the ANP/PMAP charter is a problem. Here is why:

I have yet to figure it out... but the central tenant of theirs is this belief that religion is the opiate of the masses. In the case of the Pashtuns they believe that it is the amphetamine of the masses (i.e. it psychs Pashtuns up for war on behalf of other players to their lack of benefit). So then either unwittingly or because their group is dominated by people that actually have this belief system, they attempt to degrade the place of religion in the heart and mind of the Pashtun. They believe that by decoupling the pashtun from Islamic fervor they can save him from being a pawn in the game of greater powers out there. A part of their thesis is correct... there were undoubtedly wahaabi seminaries that Saudi funded. My father in law from Waziristan tells me that the madarassahs in his youth used to provide some valuable life skills as well as Islamic knowledge and what has come in its place is much more oriented toward creating soldiers, and he falls on the conservative side of things.

Instead, the ANP/PMAP needs to seize the intiative. Those members of the party that are basically equivalents of PPP and MQM acolytes that have posters of AChekzai and Ajmaal Khattak and Asfandyaar hanging in their prayer rooms (instead of BBhutto and that MQM leader clown) need to ask themselves what have these folks done for them? Why should these individuals secure the right to lead? Why should the Panjab nexus have the monoply on religion as the vehicle of mobilization? These are important questions. If the Republican party in the US is careful enough to tap into religious sentiments without attempting to decouple religion from the masses, you would think an indigenous party would do the same.

Instead, it antagonizes religion as if it were a plague. It uses the false language of untolerant secularism/ataturkism that is even quiet foreign to America, and hoists it on its people. So waht it does is it offers the huddled Pashtun masses the choices between Salafism versus Kamalism. That is an idiotic situation to be in.

And the proof of their treachery is how they deal with folks like Hakimullah Mehsud who actually does attack government installations. Some non proof based narrative is contrived about him being the tool of the ISI. And Achekzai has yet to attack a single Panjabi army installation, yet he is labeled a hero.

Failed ideas make failed states. Mark my words, in a decade you will see the same propaganda like stale bread from the same mouths Graveyard. They will get the KP Pashtuns not a step closer to bringing down the dividing line."

A Roadmap for Pashtunistan

[khyaal]

I've well seen your comments about me. But believe me you have just got good english skills and nothing more. I won't get impressed the least from your rhetoric. I've seen many like you before.