Women and Sport...

[roadrunner]

However on the topic of sports when young, I guess I would say that
I was constantly participating in sports, every single day horseback riding, playing tennis and swimming usually.

So when you were young, and presumably non muslim you participated in all sorts of sports, every single day, even tennis. then you turned into an old, bitter woman, you became a muslim and decided to go round squawking no young women should play sports. even though you did yourself?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You're not suggesting that women are different to men in thinking based on that, are you?

I think that making an inference of a sample size of 21 would be stupid. Pilot studies do provide the basis for investigating a mechanism though. And by "thinking" I would not equate that word with intelligence. But I think that you appear well versed in worldly affairs enough to know how men think and how women think. Women have their own characteristics that they look for in a man and men appear to be much more carnal visual stimulus oriented in the initial.

Just today at work, two spots over a woman doctor colleague was talking to our superior and lamenting how the males dont marry fellow physicians but appear to "nurse hunt." She kept huffing and puffing about how men are just looking for "hot girls" that will listen to everything they tell them to do etc etc. I assume she meant that the nurses spruce themselves up and generally are considered better looking than their nerdy bookish female physician competitors and that the males are preferring matter over mind???

[roadrunner]

I think that making an inference of a sample size of 21 would be stupid. Pilot studies do provide the basis for investigating a mechanism though. And by "thinking" I would not equate that word with intelligence. But I think that you appear well versed in worldly affairs enough to know how men think and how women think. Women have their own characteristics that they look for in a man and men appear to be much more carnal visual stimulus oriented in the initial.

i'm sure if the pilot experiment were repeated for women from an identical area, the result wouldn't be much different.

Just today at work, two spots over a woman doctor colleague was talking to our superior and lamenting how the males dont marry fellow physicians but appear to "nurse hunt." She kept huffing and puffing about how men are just looking for "hot girls" that will listen to everything they tell them to do etc etc. I assume she meant that the nurses spruce themselves up and generally are considered better looking than their nerdy bookish female physician competitors and that the males are preferring matter over mind???

It could be many things. Not necessarily looks.

[Catya Sher]

Re John Rote-Runner's barb :

The question asked by Haris seems to imply TEAM SPORTS.
That is what I am objecting to.
I find them completely useless for many reasons.
There is no development of spiritual heart, soul or intellect,
but just running around wastefully.
However, I can see a Muslim woman for example riding horses,
though many of the trainers are men, but there are some women too,
to teach them how to jump fences, etc.
It is very easy to wear modest attire when riding, becauase one
wears a helmet anyway, and covers up completely.
So a little more loose-fitting outfit, rather than jodphurs for example
and the tailored hunt jackets,
would probably work just fine to fit in with Islamic standards.
Same with tennis.
One can wear a scarf, and flowing clothes on the tennis court.
THere is no need for preening around like so many women do,
in tight, short skirts and form fitting tops.

One wonders objectively : why IS it that so many women try to be
seen in aerobics outfits or bikers' tights - sometimes even wandering
the streets, not participating in such exercise -
it almost seems as though -
yes, they are deliberately trying to get men or anyone
to stare at them !
This is sick.
It is not about any sport, but is a psychological syndrome of
of trying to be bad to get people to look at them.
How desperate these souls are for even a moment of
notoriety.
That is not a healthy motive, but rather a chance to model
a costume which should never appear in public.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

i'm sure if the pilot experiment were repeated for women from an identical area, the result wouldn't be much different.



It could be many things. Not necessarily looks.

They did scan women and it will be interesting to see the results. The issue here is that it generally validates why, for instance, marketers more often use the female body to advertise:

"This research can certainly help to further our understanding of the effect of sexualized women, whether in advertising or in the office,” Cikara said."


Then there is also the differences in women's potential hard wiring:

"Women may also see men as objects in some ways, the researchers added. “These findings are not unique to men. The results would likely have been similar for women, perhaps in terms of male status,” Cikara said"

In regard to the differences in potential behavior and the implications, I think this feminist says it best:

"Chloe Angyal ’09, co-editor of Equal Writes, a feminism and gender issues blog, said in an e-mail that she was not entirely surprised by the findings.
“[I]t’s certainly not uncommon for men to reduce women to body parts; objectification is the reason that men say ‘get some ass’ and not ‘get some fully three-dimensional human,’ ” she said. She added that women objectify men, though that is often considered less socially acceptable.
“The findings seem to confirm what women have been complaining about for decades as they walk past construction sites, though they do give a new, scientific basis to the social phenomenon of objectification,” Angyal said. “This research appears to provide evidence of a more hardwired, less socially constructed tendency to objectify women, which will make eradicating the problem that much harder."

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/02/17/22773/

[roadrunner]

women are just as bad or good as men when it comes to the opposite sex, barakzaiabdali.

some researchers need to get out a bit more.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

women are just as bad or good as men when it comes to the opposite sex, barakzaiabdali.

some researchers need to get out a bit more.

Its not about good or bad compadre, its about what one is good or bad about.

For instance the girl that bought down Kobe Bryant or the girls that took on Tiger Woods did not need to see tiger's pecs in order to assign him a status and act on it.

JFK's mistress intern said she was overawed by his stature and who he was.

Tiger however could have cared less about the status of those gals.

All I am trying to say is that while Tiger gets motivated (or acts "bad") by the visual secondary sexual characteristics in order to distribute what might be called biologically low value spermatids with as many possible mates as he can; his mates are perhaps more likely to act "bad" by responding to the combination of the fact that he does not completely look like he has a haggle tooth or 20 cm warts on his face and that his "sex characteritic" is his status or ability to provide for the higher value egg.

[roadrunner]

it's probably true in those cases and overall. though women might be just as enticed by visual characteristics in a similar position, and men looking for stature/publicity.

[faye]

barakzai, there is also a difference between men and men. if you guys are freaked out by the female form well that's your problem. don't go to places where you will encounter them. easy.

[Manzareh]

barakzai, there is also a difference between men and men. if you guys are freaked out by the female form well that's your problem. don't go to places where you will encounter them. easy.

That is also true, you cant go into a lions cage and then complain about gettin bit, Muslim men shouldnt be in an audience were skimpy women are prancing about.

[Manzareh]

Its not about good or bad compadre, its about what one is good or bad about.

For instance the girl that bought down Kobe Bryant or the girls that took on Tiger Woods did not need to see tiger's pecs in order to assign him a status and act on it.

JFK's mistress intern said she was overawed by his stature and who he was.

Tiger however could have cared less about the status of those gals.

All I am trying to say is that while Tiger gets motivated (or acts "bad") by the visual secondary sexual characteristics in order to distribute what might be called biologically low value spermatids with as many possible mates as he can; his mates are perhaps more likely to act "bad" by responding to the combination of the fact that he does not completely look like he has a haggle tooth or 20 cm warts on his face and that his "sex characteritic" is his status or ability to provide for the higher value egg.

Good point laala, one can even think about how throughout history, sex has been a tool for women to achieve certain goals..where as more men have used money and power to seduce women.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

barakzai, there is also a difference between men and men. if you guys are freaked out by the female form well that's your problem. don't go to places where you will encounter them. easy.

Hi Faye

Go back to page 13 and read my first post if you get a chance. Give me a heads up if you disagree. The last part of your statement is not to far fetched in terms of what many former Islamic empire cultures advocate if possible. I guess that is why traditional weddings are sex-separated in Kandahar and many other Pashtun areas for that exact reason... its not suppose to go far though. One of the issues becomes where folks do not think about common sense and necessity and use their head. So for instance, if a widow has to earn for her children by helping in the field or going to a mill or whatever, there aren't injunctions that men have the right to isolate or confine her to the home to simply control their desires. After that, theoretically, the last part of the verse pushes an obligation on to the man and says: "lower your gaze."

However, once agian, this is an irrelevent issue that most Muslims, religious and secular alike have made the pet wedge issue. In the background Muslim countries have no sovereignty (i.e their houses are burning down) and they are worried about making the bed (these sorts of social wedge issues). There's a blood murderer loose in their house while its burning down (Assad, Saudi tyrants, Zardari, Karzai, etc) and they are worried about washing the dishes (who marries who and whether western clothing should be worn in the East). In my opinion, this issue can be redebated and revisited after Muslims secure autonomy and sovereignty in every sense.

[roadrunner]

Good point laala, one can even think about how throughout history, sex has been a tool for women to achieve certain goals..where as more men have used money and power to seduce women.

though you don't realize it, with that statement you've disagreed with him.

in history men have used money and power to seduce women because women did not have money or power. I can only think of exceptions like Cleopatra.

If you look at today you can look at examples like Zsa Zsa Gabor or Elizabeth Taylor who married much younger unknown men. They weren't after stature. It was these so called visual characteristics that men of stature like Tiger Woods were after.

[Manzareh]

though you don't realize it, with that statement you've disagreed with him.

in history men have used money and power to seduce women because women did not have money or power. I can only think of exceptions like Cleopatra.

If you look at today you can look at examples like Zsa Zsa Gabor or Elizabeth Taylor who married much younger unknown men. They weren't after stature. It was these so called visual characteristics that men of stature like Tiger Woods were after.

Ok forget 'history' lets look at the present situation, the fact still remains.

Your giving examples from cases that are not based on the average, talking about celebritys and queens isnt an acceptable example.

[Manzareh]

your post wasnt blanked out. If you answer that multiple choice, it'll answer your post. (if you can connect the dots)

so you want to answer a question with another question, and then say youl answer the initial question that you ignored if i answer you even though youv already ducked me. quite childish arnt you, nowonder your talking about connecting dots.