Is Pakistan going back to Pre 80's era of Booze , Bikini's and Bars ?

[logical]

@logical, just so you know, the Pashtuns were certainly relevant parts of the Mughal empire.

Now, I understand your beef. Some people here are trying to hijack Pashtun heritage, and trying to pawn it off as Afghanistan's exclusive heritage. The borders we see today aren't what they were like in the past. So if someone is trying to make it all seem like Afghanistan's sole achievement, that I say is inaccurate, or rather only partially accurate. Most Pashtuns are in Pakistan, so it's actually more something for Pakistanis (particularly the Pashtuns) to brag about than it is even Afghan's.

@Samandri, feel free to chime in and correct me/add to this.

I don't know about that, I know basic history and its impossible for afghanis and mughals to rule at the same time? But quite possible for many afghanis to be in India who now speak indic language? Because as afghani population was growing, they migrated to other parts of mughal empire.

Mughal was great time for muslims in subcontinent, don't forget that. All we have now is thanks to them like urdu.

[toughpashtun]

@logical, just so you know, the Pashtuns were certainly relevant parts of the Mughal empire.

Now, I understand your beef. Some people here are trying to hijack Pashtun heritage, and trying to pawn it off as Afghanistan's exclusive heritage. The borders we see today aren't what they were like in the past. So if someone is trying to make it all seem like Afghanistan's sole achievement, that I say is inaccurate, or rather only partially accurate. Most Pashtuns are in Pakistan, so it's actually more something for Pakistanis (particularly the Pashtuns) to brag about than it is even Afghan's.

@Samandri, feel free to chime in and correct me/add to this.

My two cents;
This problem exists on both sides.
We have Afghans who try to take away the Pashtun identity of Pakistani Pashtuns.
Then we have Pakistani Pashtuns who do the same.However,the Afghans have been doing this for longer.And it is very stupid really.

If anything , there are twice as many Pashtuns in Pakistan as there are in Afghanistan.And the Pashtuns lands that are part of Pakistan have not been inhabited by Pashtuns since yesterday , rather Pashtuns have been living here for centuries.
Qais Abdur Rasheed , the supposed forefather of Pashtuns (I don't know if its true) is also reportedly buried in Zhob,Balochistan.Zhob area and Sulaiman range which comprises parts of Waziristan,Balochistan and KPK is considered as the home of the earliest Pashtuns.
The reason that the Pashtun lands that are part of Pakistan today were separated from current day Afghanistan is also because of the Afghan Durrani rulers of Kandahar.They first lost some of the lands to the Sikhs, then the British ,and Ameer Abdul Rahman Khan then completely handed over this area to the British Imperialists.And that is when the boundary was created.
My point is that we should put an end to these idiotic discussions about who's better among Afghan and Pakistani Pashtuns.
As for the Mughals , well the Pashtuns did carry out a solid resistance against them.And especially the hill tribes of Pashtuns were independent , to the best of my knowledge.
[MENTION=18842]Samandri[/MENTION] , being the historian that he is , will be able to further shed light on this.

[Adam]

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

Iranis feed you feces, and whip you like you're some farm animal, and not to mention they barely took any of you people in. Soviets invaded, and all the Afghans went to Pakistan. Pakistan let them in no questions asked. It allowed them to have a second chance at life. Pakistan also provided the safe haven to allow you guys to have a Mujahideen to begin with. Last, but not least, enough of your people that ran off to EU, Canada/US, had to stop at Pakistan before going (usually for a few years). So... the dumb behavior is not justified.

Do elaborate why you take issue with Pakistan. Spite doesn't count. Yes, we have superior mountains, yes we are a richer country, yes my personal observation too confirms that Pakistani Pashtuns generally tend to be fairer skinned, more intelligent, happier, and taller, than the Afghan ones. But these are not reasons to hate a country.

Just a heads up, "you" doesn't apply to me. I'm from Swat.

Not sure why you mentioned Iran, has no relevance to what I'm asking, unless you're saying Afghans shouldn't hate Pakistan because Iran treats them worse?

You're completely overlooking why Pakistan allowed the Muj to operate out of the tribal areas, obviously wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts, Pakistan, like the US had a reason, the US wanted to give the soviets their vietnam, and Pakistan wanted the destruction of the Pro-Indian Afghan government.
And then we have the funding of various warlords throughout the 90s, Pakistan provided support to Hekmatyar while he rained down rockets on Kabul killing thousands, we then had the funding of the taliban while they banned TV, got rid of female education.
And then we have today, Pakistan still funds the Taliban, the leadership still operates out of Pakistan, The Haqqani network still has support.

I'm not sure if you truly believe all that stuff about superior mountains (how is that even measurable?), height, intelligence or fairer skin or you just mentioned that because you assumed I was an Afghan and tried to be petty.

[mungojerry]

Are you from india or Pakistan? dont be scared to answer brather

brothar, i am from the Pakistan, pucca Pakistani.

[Kabulistan]

Rebellious and disobedient ? Afghanistan has done nothing of such to disobey the Farangis ever . Pakistan on the other hand has a history of pissing off the west with its Numerous policies , Nuclear Programme , Proxy Games etc . Americans have been made to look stupid by Pakistan on many occasions .

Pakistan treating US like chumps: Congressmen, experts | The Indian Express


As far as Global Power is concerned Pakistan is a regional power herself and one of the strongest countries in terms of power projection .

Global Firepower Military Ranks - 216

Say what again?

Pakistan is known as lapdog of USA


This is How a Leader Speaks !!! - Iranian President vs. Musharraf - YouTube

[Elite Pakhtun]

Just a heads up, "you" doesn't apply to me. I'm from Swat.

OK.

Not sure why you mentioned Iran, has no relevance to what I'm asking, unless you're saying Afghans shouldn't hate Pakistan because Iran treats them worse?

Yes. Iran is viewed with more respect.

You're completely overlooking why Pakistan allowed the Muj to operate out of the tribal areas, obviously wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts, Pakistan, like the US had a reason, the US wanted to give the soviets their vietnam, and Pakistan wanted the destruction of the Pro-Indian Afghan government.
And then we have the funding of various warlords throughout the 90s, Pakistan provided support to Hekmatyar while he rained down rockets on Kabul killing thousands, we then had the funding of the taliban while they banned TV, got rid of female education.
And then we have today, Pakistan still funds the Taliban, the leadership still operates out of Pakistan, The Haqqani network still has support.

These are actually valid points. I suppose it's true, Pakistan certainly does get blame. Issue is, a lot of Pashtuns live in Pakistan. The ones in Pak are in a rock and a hard place. We can't exactly forfeit our lives, and roll the dice, nor can we say Pak is the best place ever. Has KPK suffered because of this? Yes. But having said that, there are Pashtuns that have gained from Paksitan as well. Many of them, in fact. I also, to a certain extent, see the "strategic depth" as having transpired due to a certain level of necessity. Yes, Afghanistan suffered... but had Pakistan been a passive participant, it would've been under severe threat. As well, I think Pakistan is getting too much credit. They're not that powerful a nation. Nobody other than the US and the USSR were. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto had started cordial relations with the Soviets. Then followed a coupe de etat, and the infamous Zia ul Haq came to power. Some argue this was a conspiracy, others don't. Hard to say really.

I don't want to justify the wrongs though.. but I don't think Afghans appreciate that while they may hate Pakistan, Pakistan generally doesn't think about Afghanistan. They usually see them as a similar nation. It's not like India and Pakistan, where the revulsion is very much mutual. Many Afghans work, and do business, in Pakistan.

Much of the support and funding for, what are now known as, the Taliban et al was also during the Mujahideen era, was it not? After the Soviets withdrew, the world stopped caring.

Another question I have though, is what about the Northern Alliance? Are they absolved of blame simply because they were on the losing side? What if they were the ones who were winning and raining rockets on Kabul? Would some other country get hated then instead?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

OK.


Another question I have though, is what about the Northern Alliance? Are they absolved of blame simply because they were on the losing side? What if they were the ones who were winning and raining rockets on Kabul? Would some other country get hated then instead?

They were raining rockets on Kabul, The main people who absolve them are the Massoud-cultists, who have a large subset of Tajik-nationalists intersecting with them. Much like you may find a subset of Pashtun Nationalists who absolve the Taliban and such, despite not being ideologically aligned. Furthermore despite being pretty aggressive and fanatical themselves, they weren't "as" fanatical when it came to things like education and health, as say people from Hekmatyar's camp or the Taliban.

But in objective terms, the main reason they're often less criticized, is because Pakistan was originally invested in trying to sway Massoud into their influence, which I guess for whatever reason, failed. So they started touting Hekmatyar against Massoud. Massoud also wanted reconcilation effort with Najib so that the war, which had basically broiled down to a civil war between the Najib government and Mujahideen factions, and between Mujahideen factions themselves. This Pakistan wouldn't tolerate because this means India, which was Russia's ally and supportive of Najib, because it means Pakistan would have less influence. Hence they urged Hekmatyar against Najib, and India in turn urged helped Massoud. Neither side was innocent, but The war would have ended much sooner if Pakistan ddn't try to impose it's geopolitical strstegy in Afghanistan.

This is often why you find POS like DZJ putting posters of Najib on their FB, Pakistan basically made him look like a hero, everyone forgot what Najib had done in the 80's, his collaboration with Russian Paramilitary to raise Afghan villages, his use of actually rape of family members of Anti-Soviet Activists. They just remember him being a martyr against Pakistani meddling.

On one hand, Najib deserved to die, for sure, but under rule of law, after a trial. Then again one may argue whether the UN would have actually taken him to trial for war crimes, he may have gotten asylum in India or Russia. Regardless Pakistan made a bad situation worse, not for their survival, but just for their sphere of influence.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Only thing I said was that Pakistan urban class should aim to be like Delhi or Mumbai urban class who tend to be progressive and also we are culturally more closer to them. Not every Indian is hindu extremist, many are progressive and liberal people. After that they can aim to be like Turkey urban class in 30-40 years. And in 100 years like western people. atm Pakistan cities are still very conservative and depending on area women are not better of then in some villages. This will obviously change in coming years.

Mughals settled muslims from all over the world in central india including people from current day afghanistan which they ruled. They now will speak indic language. Even if Karachi claimed to be one which I doubt looking at his posts. There are likely some of afghanis left behind. This phenomena of afghanis migrating east didn't stop even in British raj or when Pakistan was made. Even now if allowed they all will migrate to Pakistan and even India. One reason is overpopulation and hardly anything to eat in afghanistan.

That doesn't mean they ruled because it would mean Mughals and afghanis ruled at the same time? Think about that for a moment scavenger. peace out

Well ....duh, obviously, not sure where you even came to the idea we're Anti-Hindu or Anti-India. We're just making fun of South Asian psychological complexes and their bizarre habits.

Why do you need to aim to be Farangyan though? That seems silly, To be progressive in science and technology doesn't mean you have to be loose with morality or abandon ardent social values. This is what I mean by mental colonization. you haven't learned to make objective analysis of Western culture and seem to think everything they do is "advanced". Most of their cultural habits could be described as jahiliyah. So this outlook is an example of sycophantism and not understanding of how progress works.

The science and technology advancement isn't done by people who party and go to clubs. It's done by people who go to bed at 10 pm and most of their hobbies deal with rather wholesome activities. So the LOGICAL thing is to take what's actually beneficial and ignore the stuff that isn't fruitful. Also about women's rights, women participating in society and not being put in seclusion does not depend on Clubs and women dancing around bodies exposed. You're mixing two different issues.

No one said Mughals and Afghans ruled at the same time. You forget that South Asian history is a complex ebb and flow. It wasn't like Mughals came and all of a sudden they were rulers. There was rise and fall and power struggles.Babur made Sher Shah Suri one of his generals and then Sher Shah deposed Humayun Babur's son and Sher Shah had an empire over most of what Mughals had controlled. This was Suri Empire. Before Mughals came to power there was Alauddin Khalji (Ghilzai) and Bahlol Lodi.

So it wasn't Mughals who "sent" Pashtuns around, Pashtuns were around long before. Come on you can wikipedia about Ranjit Singh, but you couldn't Wikipedia this? Sounds like denial.

[Traveller]

These are actually valid points. I suppose it's true, Pakistan certainly does get blame. Issue is, a lot of Pashtuns live in Pakistan. The ones in Pak are in a rock and a hard place. We can't exactly forfeit our lives, and roll the dice, nor can we say Pak is the best place ever. Has KPK suffered because of this? Yes. But having said that, there are Pashtuns that have gained from Pakistan as well.

Yes. I think that Afghans often don't understand that we support Pakistan because as of now it's our best bet. In fact, that's why many Afghans want to stay in Pakistan as well.

[toughpashtun]

They were raining rockets on Kabul, The main people who absolve them are the Massoud-cultists, who have a large subset of Tajik-nationalists intersecting with them. Much like you may find a subset of Pashtun Nationalists who absolve the Taliban and such, despite not being ideologically aligned. Furthermore despite being pretty aggressive and fanatical themselves, they weren't "as" fanatical when it came to things like education and health, as say people from Hekmatyar's camp or the Taliban.

But in objective terms, the main reason they're often less criticized, is because Pakistan was originally invested in trying to sway Massoud into their influence, which I guess for whatever reason, failed. So they started touting Hekmatyar against Massoud. Massoud also wanted reconcilation effort with Najib so that the war, which had basically broiled down to a civil war between the Najib government and Mujahideen factions, and between Mujahideen factions themselves. This Pakistan wouldn't tolerate because this means India, which was Russia's ally and supportive of Najib, because it means Pakistan would have less influence. Hence they urged Hekmatyar against Najib, and India in turn urged helped Massoud. Neither side was innocent, but The war would have ended much sooner if Pakistan ddn't try to impose it's geopolitical strstegy in Afghanistan.

This is often why you find POS like DZJ putting posters of Najib on their FB, Pakistan basically made him look like a hero, everyone forgot what Najib had done in the 80's, his collaboration with Russian Paramilitary to raise Afghan villages, his use of actually rape of family members of Anti-Soviet Activists. They just remember him being a martyr against Pakistani meddling.

On one hand, Najib deserved to die, for sure, but under rule of law, after a trial. Then again one may argue whether the UN would have actually taken him to trial for war crimes, he may have gotten asylum in India or Russia. Regardless Pakistan made a bad situation worse, not for their survival, but just for their sphere of influence.

To put it shortly;
Afghans(many of them ) , forgot about the war crimes of Soviets,Najib and Massoud but see Hekmatyar and Taliban as villains,right?
And because Pakistan was behind Hekmatyar and Taliban , so Pakistan became the bad guy too.

[Firdousi]

OK.

Yes. Iran is viewed with more respect.

These are actually valid points. I suppose it's true, Pakistan certainly does get blame. Issue is, a lot of Pashtuns live in Pakistan. The ones in Pak are in a rock and a hard place. We can't exactly forfeit our lives, and roll the dice, nor can we say Pak is the best place ever. Has KPK suffered because of this? Yes. But having said that, there are Pashtuns that have gained from Paksitan as well. Many of them, in fact. I also, to a certain extent, see the "strategic depth" as having transpired due to a certain level of necessity. Yes, Afghanistan suffered... but had Pakistan been a passive participant, it would've been under severe threat. As well, I think Pakistan is getting too much credit. They're not that powerful a nation. Nobody other than the US and the USSR were. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto had started cordial relations with the Soviets. Then followed a coupe de etat, and the infamous Zia ul Haq came to power. Some argue this was a conspiracy, others don't. Hard to say really.

I don't want to justify the wrongs though.. but I don't think Afghans appreciate that while they may hate Pakistan, Pakistan generally doesn't think about Afghanistan. They usually see them as a similar nation. It's not like India and Pakistan, where the revulsion is very much mutual. Many Afghans work, and do business, in Pakistan.

Much of the support and funding for, what are now known as, the Taliban et al was also during the Mujahideen era, was it not? After the Soviets withdrew, the world stopped caring.

Another question I have though, is what about the Northern Alliance? Are they absolved of blame simply because they were on the losing side? What if they were the ones who were winning and raining rockets on Kabul? Would some other country get hated then instead?

Other countries didn't have a "Kabul must burn" policy. But what goes around comes around. We paid for our stupidity. You are now paying for yours. Salute to those 100000 Pakis butchered like animals.

[Firdousi]

To put it shortly;
Afghans(many of them ) , forgot about the war crimes of Soviets,Najib and Massoud but see Hekmatyar and Taliban as villains,right?
And because Pakistan was behind Hekmatyar and Taliban , so Pakistan became the bad guy too.

Pakistan has always been the bad guy. No offense but nobody likes Pakistan. Not even China.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

To put it shortly;
Afghans(many of them ) , forgot about the war crimes of Soviets,Najib and Massoud but see Hekmatyar and Taliban as villains,right?
And because Pakistan was behind Hekmatyar and Taliban , so Pakistan became the bad guy too.

Well even that maybe over simplifying, because some of this is also ideologically motivated. Many crypto-commies who want to spin the narrative to make it seem the Soviets and Najib were just trying to turn Afghanistan into a progressive paradise and were handing out candy to school children, until the evil Mujahideen came in and ruined it. The truth is, everyone was pretty bad because it's all about who has power and influence. Who was worse who was best? I guess if we're talking about sheer numbers of deaths and carnage, Soviets and Communist Afghan Govt. were worse, but their criminality was sanitized by secret prisons and mass slaughter with more advanced weapons. If we're talking about just carelessness and incompetence. Mujahideen, especially Hekmatyar, just driven by ego more than anything. If we're talking about, lack of meaningful vision and counter productive. Taliban. If we're talking about brigandry and just a bunch of thieves masquerading as warriors, Northern Alliance. You can twist anything either way depending which ideology you use.

Myself? I'm not a nationalist nor am I an ideologue. I mean I'm Muslim but not sure if I agree with gthe idea that a Shari'ah government is relevant for the needs of right now. AT the same time I tend to identify many characteristics of secularism as a trojan horse for Western sycophantism and neocolonialism, which I am against, albeit I'm not against it in principle. I think a modern society, with a progressive outlook with regards to advancing the quality of life and economic conditions is what we must focus on, and it has to respect the Spirit and Characteristic values of the society at large. (If you want more details on what I'm hingting at, refer back to member 'Pakistan's" thread where he was gloating about Pakistan returning to cuckolding practices like strip bars and such)

But not to trail off, in the end, we can say Pakistan is hated not necessarily because of Hekmatyar or Taliban specifically, but because their support of these elements has come at the expense of Afghanistan progressing and improving the quality of life of its people. If Pakistan used soft power rather than terrorism to do its bidding, you may see a different attitude from Afghanistan, but Pakistan can't or won't go that route because then there's a a chance AFghanistan will be more competent and less reliant.

[Khostai]

To put it shortly;
Afghans(many of them ) , forgot about the war crimes of Soviets,Najib and Massoud but see Hekmatyar and Taliban as villains,right?
And because Pakistan was behind Hekmatyar and Taliban , so Pakistan became the bad guy too.

Afghans would have forgotten about talibs and Hekmatyar also if Pakistan would stop providing help to them.

[toughpashtun]

Well even that maybe over simplifying, because some of this is also ideologically motivated. Many crypto-commies who want to spin the narrative to make it seem the Soviets and Najib were just trying to turn Afghanistan into a progressive paradise and were handing out candy to school children, until the evil Mujahideen came in and ruined it. The truth is, everyone was pretty bad because it's all about who has power and influence. Who was worse who was best? I guess if we're talking about sheer numbers of deaths and carnage, Soviets and Communist Afghan Govt. were worse, but their criminality was sanitized by secret prisons and mass slaughter with more advanced weapons. If we're talking about just carelessness and incompetence. Mujahideen, especially Hekmatyar, just driven by ego more than anything. If we're talking about, lack of meaningful vision and counter productive. Taliban. If we're talking about brigandry and just a bunch of thieves masquerading as warriors, Northern Alliance. You can twist anything either way depending which ideology you use.

Myself? I'm not a nationalist nor am I an ideologue. I mean I'm Muslim but not sure if I agree with gthe idea that a Shari'ah government is relevant for the needs of right now. AT the same time I tend to identify many characteristics of secularism as a trojan horse for Western sycophantism and neocolonialism, which I am against, albeit I'm not against it in principle. I think a modern society, with a progressive outlook with regards to advancing the quality of life and economic conditions is what we must focus on, and it has to respect the Spirit and Characteristic values of the society at large. (If you want more details on what I'm hingting at, refer back to member 'Pakistan's" thread where he was gloating about Pakistan returning to cuckolding practices like strip bars and such)

But not to trail off, in the end, we can say Pakistan is hated not necessarily because of Hekmatyar or Taliban specifically, but because their support of these elements has come at the expense of Afghanistan progressing and improving the quality of life of its people. If Pakistan used soft power rather than terrorism to do its bidding, you may see a different attitude from Afghanistan, but Pakistan can't or won't go that route because then there's a a chance AFghanistan will be more competent and less reliant.

I understand your point of view.
Personally , the part which I find most disappointing is how when the Mujahideen , after giving lots of sacrifices were finally able to force the Soviets out and then remove Najib , fell into fighting among themselves and killing innocents when they had a chance to establish a good government and turn the narrative into a better one.Yes , not all mujahideen were like that , but the main parties such as Massoud,Hekmatyar,Sayyaf were guilty of this behaviour.They thus fell of the high moral ground that they had established during the anti-Soviet struggle.
While conceding that yes , Pakistan too did not play a good role in that period by switching alliances and support.