Jinnah, an armchair politician

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Ruling a few cities is not the same as conquering a country. Your information is wrong.

Verrrrry true; this is why I believe the Pakistani Punjabi establishment still has a vendetta about what happened back then. Pashtuns were ruthless with them.

[dawn]

Oh bullcrap; the inferiority issues of you Paki-Nationalist punjabi types reek of hidden resentment. You're not living in the 18th century but you try to hijack other people's history as your own? LOL Riiiiiight.

LOL oin the Payroll of USA; like Pakistan hasn't been on US Payroll for decades. lol

Habshi you have identity crisis going on. You think its cool to hate Abdali because he may have done something against your tribe in 18th century. You think Pakistan helping afghani pashtuns against ANA is actually taking revenge. But fact is Afghanis were punished for crimes of Abdali and then some more in 18th century. Only someone like you can come up with retarded logic like this.

Move on from past and look at future. Your father was likely translator for USA which explain your love for ANA. That's how vast majority of afghanis have gotten green cards over the years.

[dawn]

Sikhs did not conquer Afghanistan in the 18th century. They did manage to drive Pashtuns out of the Punjab as Ahmad Shah Abdali wasn't able to continue fighting due to internal problems. They managed to take Peshawar and surrounding towns in the settled part of what is now KPK which they held with a lot of difficulty constantly facing rebellion and disobedience and non payment of taxes. Ruling a few cities is not the same as conquering a country. Your information is wrong.

ops I've forget these areas were not part of country named Afghanistan, my mistake.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Habshi you have identity crisis going on. You think its cool to hate Abdali because he may have done something against your tribe in 18th century. You think Pakistan helping afghani pashtuns against ANA is actually taking revenge. But fact is Afghanis were punished for crimes of Abdali and then some more in 18th century. Only someone like you can come up with retarded logic like this.

Move on from past and look at future. Your father was likely translator for USA which explain your love for ANA. That's how vast majority of afghanis have gotten green cards over the years.

Mujra Dancer boy, even another person verified that Sikhs only controled a few cities; this isn't enough for vengeance. This disaffected Afghans narrative is just something some forum Nationalists made up, since for example Haqqani network, Hezbil Islami were lead by either Tribal Mashars or Urban Islamists.

You can't hide reality; it's Punjab's historic angst against Afghans that's probably driving it; I don't blame you; Pashtuns treated you less than human.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

All Indic badgering aside; I actually agree with you; Pashtuns are not without fault when it comes to the chaos that ensued in South Asia, we're sadly very egotistic people who delude ourselves into thinking everything we did and do is noble. But Abdali was an opportunistic warlord and brigand.

In a sense I can totally understand why Punjab might be subconsciously getting their revenge on Pashtuns after the atrocities that were committed by Abdali.

But Abdali didn't just run amok in South Asia; he with Nadir Qoli's help and support drove many Pashtun tribes from Kandahar into places like Ghazni and Logar. My family are descendants of people who were driven from Kandahar. While we're over it, it just shows this idea of National pride among Afghans and referring to him as the "Baba" of our country is largely narrative, just like Natiionalism is largely Narrative in Pakistan.

Nonetheless because we're arrogant people, it is egregious to our repute how people were once subjugated and conquered now have the upper hand over us in some sense.

I've examined this from many angles. I tend to agree that we have to admit Indian Nationalism ala Modi is a response to centuries of interventionalism and invasion into the subcontinent.

However, before my Indic friends get all giddy and try to use that admission I remind them that the Indics were also guilty of attempting to enter the Afghan basin numerous times. The Gupta/Maurya empire, Asoka, the Sikhs, the later decadent Moghuls if you consider them semi incorporated into Indian culture all attempted to enter Afghanistan. Meaning, this was not all a one way street.

The ideal situation would have involved smarter and cooler heads realizing that Islam as the latter day monotheism of its time was superior in so many ways in its theology that opening up trade and mounting a strong defense outside of the Hindu strong holds would have evolved into a Malaysia style situation of barter, trade and ties resulting in India moving toward Islam on its own. Alternatively, The Brits were on their way anyway and their subjugation of India may have opened the way for Muslims and Indians to have forged a common understanding and comradery against the Brits instead of the Brits using the divide and conquer approach on them both.

Abdali, when you read Professor Gommen's translations of the original Persian Tarikh, was far more brilliant than a simple warlord like say a Mullah Naqib or a Abdurrazeq or a Karzai.

He actually understood the issue of Iran/Arab/Sunni conflict that is now becoming an immense problem and wrote the Caliph about trying to incorporate Jaffarites as an additional madhab. He began a propaganda campaign when he was thinking about opening up a front into Iran using Iranian mythology like the famous phoenix/bird "Huma" anointing Kings. Had he taken all of Iran, today we might not have found ourselves in the situation we are in.

And to be fair, his father was murdered, and when his older brother petitioned for justice, the Hotak imprisoned him and his brother without right (imagine being jailed like that as a 15 year old). It was years before Nadir Shah freed him.

Even then, he did not exact more revenge and wrote poetry later on saying that there is no difference in his mind between the Awdali (slang for Abdali) and the Khilji and that the mirror of the heart's purity is what makes a man good in his opinion, not his tribal affiliation.

I also assumed that much of what we heard about our forefathers was national lionization similar to what goes on in other nations (e.g. George Washington and the Cherry Tree) but when you read up on the man - Abdali was someone who lived a turbulent life from the day he was born and still managed to accomplish some amazing things.

[dawn]

Mujra Dancer boy, even another person verified that Sikhs only controled a few cities; this isn't enough for vengeance. This disaffected Afghans narrative is just something some forum Nationalists made up, since for example Haqqani network, Hezbil Islami were lead by either Tribal Mashars or Urban Islamists.

You can't hide reality; it's Punjab's historic angst against Afghans that's probably driving it; I don't blame you; Pashtuns treated you less than human.

Habshi facts are that Afghanis lost half of "Loy Afghanistan" to sikhs and British. Yes these areas are not part of Afghanistan but guess why genius. If Abdali butchered sikhs they already toke revenge and then some more.

Come back to 21th century and stop blaming current day punjab for Afghanistan miseries. I'm only countering your primitive tribal mindset of punjab taking revenge when afghanis have payed more then enough back then. What you need is pity not revenge, Pakistan enemy is India not Afghanistan who we supply free wheat. You don't feed your enemy.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Habshi facts are that Afghanis lost half of "Loy Afghanistan" to sikhs and British. Yes these areas are not part of Afghanistan but guess why genius. If Abdali butchered sikhs they already toke revenge and then some more.

Come back to 21th century and stop blaming current day punjab for Afghanistan miseries. I'm only countering your primitive tribal mindset of punjab taking revenge when afghanis have payed more then enough back then. What you need is pity not revenge, Pakistan enemy is India not Afghanistan who we supply free wheat. You don't feed your enemy.

If this is the lie you want to convince yourself of then sure; but a few cities is not half of Afghanistan, most of the region was tribal areas that got annexed eventually. In reality it was Indic land that was subdued by Afghans; Indics still don't have it since it's inhabited by Pashtuns or Baloch predominantly.

You're still trying your revenge, but now you're taking passive route, like Mean Girls movie, LOL

[dawn]

If this is the lie you want to convince yourself of then sure; but a few cities is not half of Afghanistan, most of the region was tribal areas that got annexed eventually. In reality it was Indic land that was subdued by Afghans; Indics still don't have it since it's inhabited by Pashtuns or Baloch predominantly.

You're still trying your revenge, but now you're taking passive route, like Mean Girls movie, LOL

Pakistan did take revenge but not for the reasons you believe or want to believe, primitive reasons like revenge for centuries old era. Reason was constant interference of Afghanis in to internal affairs of Pakistan after 1947. Pakistan did take revenge of that and everyone will agree. I don't know what you're going on about indics and pashtuns. Yes these regions may have spoken indic language once upon a time and later on iranic. And then same iranic speaking now speak indic and so on. Big deal. These are basically same languages divided in to groups by British, divide and rule. You're making it sound like one group spoke chinese and other german.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Pakistan did take revenge but not for the reasons you believe or want to believe, primitive reasons like revenge for centuries old era. Reason was constant interference of Afghanis in to internal affairs of Pakistan after 1947. Pakistan did take revenge of that and everyone will agree. I don't know what you're going on about indics and pashtuns. Yes these regions may have spoken indic language once upon a time and later on iranic. And then same iranic speaking now speak indic and so on. Big deal. These are basically same languages divided in to groups by British, divide and rule. You're making it sound like one group spoke chinese and other german.

Pretty big deal; since Indic hasn't been able to effectively oust Iranic; but Iranic pretty much pushed Indic out to practically nothing. Thinking that people are multilinguial would be like French person thinking the conquered America because 2nd language is a school requirement. LOL

It's OK, even this "Afghan interference" nonsense is just Punjabi resentment, because they want a chance to regain Indic lands, but those lands are still in the hands of Pashtuns. the grief you must be suffering is immense.

[Elite Pakhtun]

All other evidence to the contrary suggests that Ranjit was far better than the Abdalis and the Moghuls.

Absolutely not. What part of desecration and defiling of mosques, combined with slaughter, is better than high taxation?

http://www.pashtunforums.com/pashtun-history-/50345-punjabi-musalman-tertiary-class-citizens-ranjeet-singh.html

Creating a big mosque is not that big a deal. Punjab in the Maharaja's rule had a literacy rate of 80% or something like that.

Who told you this? The headless banta singh who fought off 1 Trillion Muslims single handedly? Please cite.

Just have a look at how dumb that sounds. 80% literacy!! That too, in the 1800s.

People were literate in Punjabi (their mother language) and Persian (borrowed court language from Moghuls).

Which people? The 6 guys all taking turns to perform suction action on Rancid Singh? Sikh punjabi literature is in sanskrit text.

Plenty of bright sparks. Leaders aren't the only example, Punjab has a variety of poetry and literature that dates back to the 11th Century, far older than Urdu or even if you can find Pashto poetry that dates before Baba Farid's time, I'd be interested to know. We are rich in culture, dance, literature, etc.

I don't know any south asian, unless they're big into ethnic heritage, who gives a **** about anything other than Urdu (and maybe Farsi) poetry and literature, but to answer your question Amir Kror Suri had poems going back to the 8th Century CE.

Having said that, it's good for you that you celebrate that heritage. Certainly worse than forgetting it.

[dawn]

Pretty big deal; since Indic hasn't been able to effectively oust Iranic; but Iranic pretty much pushed Indic out to practically nothing. Thinking that people are multilinguial would be like French person thinking the conquered America because 2nd language is a school requirement. LOL

It's OK, even this "Afghan interference" nonsense is just Punjabi resentment, because they want a chance to regain Indic lands, but those lands are still in the hands of Pashtuns. the grief you must be suffering is immense.

British who came up with these terms almost classified pashto as yet another indic language. Pashto is only "iranic" (lol) language with dravidian retroflex. Pashtuns are only iranic people who because of high ASI cluster with Indians genetically. This mean you are self hater.

I don't know what afghani hashis you're smoking but close to billion people speak indic languages in India and they are your brothers right now. You didn't ousted anyone, you're just confused habshi who can't accept that he's not that different then Indians if we ignore your habshi part as genetics and language shows.

[Kakar-Wardak]

Habshi facts are that Afghanis lost half of "Loy Afghanistan" to sikhs and British. Yes these areas are not part of Afghanistan but guess why genius. If Abdali butchered sikhs they already toke revenge and then some more.

Come back to 21th century and stop blaming current day punjab for Afghanistan miseries. I'm only countering your primitive tribal mindset of punjab taking revenge when afghanis have payed more then enough back then. What you need is pity not revenge, Pakistan enemy is India not Afghanistan who we supply free wheat. You don't feed your enemy.

Punjabi don't understand your love for Sikhs it is a well know fact that if it wasn't for Sikhs Pakistan would have all of Kashmir today Hindus can't fight.

[Samandri]

Punjab in the Maharaja's rule had a literacy rate of 80% or something like that. People were literate in Punjabi (their mother language) and Persian (borrowed court language from Moghuls)..

Source?

Only Persian was the official language of Sikh empire, not their own Punjabi.....all of their farmans, coins, official documents etc under Ranjeet Singh and successors are in Farsi

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

British who came up with these terms almost classified pashto as yet another indic language. Pashto is only "iranic" (lol) language with dravidian retroflex. Pashtuns are only iranic people who because of high ASI cluster with Indians genetically. This mean you are self hater.

I don't know what afghani hashis you're smoking but close to billion people speak indic languages in India and they are your brothers right now. You didn't ousted anyone, you're just confused habshi who can't accept that he's not that different then Indians if we ignore your habshi part as genetics and language shows.

Vanilla Jogian, you come back in new incarnation, but we had this debate already and it's been debunked. Repeating same fallacy won't make fallacy true.

We're not talking about India, we're talking about the regions Pashtuns currently inhabit, Indics have not regained their lands from Pashtuns, they're still Pashtun inhabited.

[DSM0305]

Hate to bust the Pashtun bubble here, but lets be honest. Pashtuns have been ruling Indians for a short amount of time under Ahmad Shah Abdali, but now Indians are ruling Pashtuns. Pakistan is an Indian country, created for Indic Muslims. Now wast majority of Pashtuns are under direct control of Indians. One could even call Pakistan an Indian empire.
For how long have Ahmad Shah ruled Indians, I let you make the count. Now Pakistan have existed for more than 60 years and still counting. Basically Indians have been ruling Pashtuns for 60+ years and literally destroyed their motherland Afghanistan. We can chest bump ourself for our past, but remember right now we're in the same situation as they were in the past.
We even had our own genocide in FATA and Afghanistan. We may have subdued them in the past, but in the present they have subdued us.