Non-Pashtun Pashtuns and Pashtuns non-Pashtuns

[Smarty]

Interesting, from British gazzeter of punjab it seem like % is somewhat similar from what I have read on Gujranwala, Gujrat and some other areas. 55% are zamindars which mean jats, awans, rajputs, gujars for exemple. In 2nd comes banyas like khatris/sheikh and brahmins/syed who make 10-15%.

And 30-35% are kammis who belong to different tribes and background. This will be the case even now in rural areas. But cities are somewhat different beast since they have seen lots of migration from Indian punjab and even byond after 1947.

While native Pak punjabis only started to migrate to cities after 1947 in large numbers, especially kammis who had more reasons to move to city then others.

There is even a book here in kitabatoon section about 'features of person and society in swat'.....members here should read it, they are under wrong impression that pashtuns do not have caste and class system. Punjab and KPK have very similar stratifications when it comes to "kammis", even Balochs have kammis similar to punjab and KPK. Only the priviliged land holder class is different, "kammis" seem to be shifted from one conqueror to another. For example i read in a book that when Marris expelled barozais from lower sibi, they got possession of slaves and hamsayas of barozais which were numerous as barozais were governors of this region in mughal times.

[Toramana]

Now Parachas are Kashmiris lmfao


Your discrtiption of paracha sound like banyas, otherwise known as trading caste. Modern world is made for south asian trading castes.

Yes, tilla_Jogian we are originally Kashmiris having migrated to Mingora in 19th Century. There are many people and groups in Swat that are not Pashtuns. For example the people of Behrain, Kalam, and Swat Kohistan are not Pashtuns. We are kind of more affiliated with Dard people of Gilgit-Baltistan, Chitral, Kashmir, etc.

[Toramana]

Moreover, Wali Swat family is not Pashtun. They are Gujjars basically.

[tilla_jogian]

There is even a book here in kitabatoon section about 'features of person and society in swat'.....members here should read it, they are under wrong impression that pashtuns do not have caste and class system. Punjab and KPK have very similar stratifications when it comes to "kammis", even Balochs have kammis similar to punjab and KPK. Only the priviliged land holder class is different, "kammis" seem to be shifted from one conqueror to another. For example i read in a book that when Marris expelled barozais from lower sibi, they got possession of slaves and hamsayas of barozais which were numerous as barozais were governors of this region in mughal times.

True, for exemple when ''Kashmiris'' now known as butt biraderi in Punjab. Good numbers of them migrated to northen part of central punjab like gujrat, gujranwala and sialkot after famine of 18th century in Kashmir. They were obviously landless in punjab but since most of them didn't came from kammi background they kept their separate identity and were known as butt.

But some kammi did migrate from Kashmir and in Kharian they adopted bhatti surname and they are known as kasbi. And people here don't know real bhattis are supposed to be rajput/zamindar. Bhatti here mean kasbis/kammi. Aziz Bhatti was kasbi, not many people will know about this. Raheel sharif is half kasbi.

Kasbi come in 3rd category, artisan castes. They are known for making cloth in home. They most likely adopted bhatti surname to get in to British army because martial races, but funny thing is even after almost 200 years they are known as kammi/kasbi here. And people even know they came from Kashmir.

[tilla_jogian]

Yes, tilla_Jogian we are originally Kashmiris having migrated to Mingora in 19th Century. There are many people and groups in Swat that are not Pashtuns. For example the people of Behrain, Kalam, and Swat Kohistan are not Pashtuns. We are kind of more affiliated with Dard people of Gilgit-Baltistan, Chitral, Kashmir, etc.

Do you know who have names like ''Seth Kamran''? Do you know origin of ''seth''?

Sheth or Seth or Saith (Urdu: ﺳﯾﭨﻬ ) was a title of greatness, generally prefixed to the name of big businessmen, money lenders or rich persons of towns in South Asia. The Sheth surname is quite common in Gujarat, Rajashtan, Punjab and Haryana. The title is still used, but less often than before. In older days other titles like Nagar Seth or Shethji were used to denote the richest person in the town. (Nagar translates to town). Generally this surname is closely associated with Hindu and Jain religions of Northern India, and many people within these communities are wealthy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheth

Najam Sethi is probably your ancient relative. Are parachas in to trade? Known as traders? So punjabi hindu khatri caste can be your most likely origin. It all depend on what parachas are known for, you don't go in to detail. You are obviously not zamindar even if now your family own land for agriculture.

[khushal]

Yes, tilla_Jogian we are originally Kashmiris having migrated to Mingora in 19th Century. There are many people and groups in Swat that are not Pashtuns. For example the people of Behrain, Kalam, and Swat Kohistan are not Pashtuns. We are kind of more affiliated with Dard people of Gilgit-Baltistan, Chitral, Kashmir, etc.

Babrak Karmel was Kashmiri.

[Toramana]

Do you know who have names like ''Seth Kamran''? Do you know origin of ''seth''?

Sheth or Seth or Saith (Urdu: ﺳﯾﭨﻬ ) was a title of greatness, generally prefixed to the name of big businessmen, money lenders or rich persons of towns in South Asia. The Sheth surname is quite common in Gujarat, Rajashtan, Punjab and Haryana. The title is still used, but less often than before. In older days other titles like Nagar Seth or Shethji were used to denote the richest person in the town. (Nagar translates to town). Generally this surname is closely associated with Hindu and Jain religions of Northern India, and many people within these communities are wealthy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheth

Najam Sethi is probably your ancient relative. Are parachas in to trade? Known as traders? So punjabi hindu khatri caste can be your most likely origin. It all depend on what parachas are known for, you don't go in to detail. You are obviously not zamindar even if now your family own land for agriculture.

tilla_jogian, that "seth" word is an interesting story. It is that by mid of 20th Century, the Parachas of Mingora had become a very wealthy community through share hard work and industriousness (of course coupled with the business acumen that you may call chicanery depending on your social and moral standards).

Part of the reason for their success was also the patronage by the Wali of Swat who himself was non-Pashtun but was ruling a Pashtun population (which in fact is less than 50% Pashtun if we go by the strict definition of who is a Pashtun) and that needed some people with similar social background around as a mean of support and political deterrence against adversaries and competitors.

Anyhow, as the younger generation grew up they started using the same social title as the surrounding khans. For example Seth Kamran was called "Kamran Khan", which was unacceptable to the Khans of Mingora and the surrounding areas - so to remind Parachas their lowly place in society, these Khans started calling him "Seth Kamran".

Rest, I haven't investigated much the status of Paracha family in wider South Asia. But the current situation is, there is no longer much eagerness in Paracha to be called Pashtuns. Part of the reason is the transformation that has occurred with many ordinary people (lol---the so-called hamsayas) climbing the social ladder and with significant population now urbanized. They have kind of started looking beyond the demarcation of Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns to find a place and status at the broader level.

As for land, is it necessary you inherit land to feel the sense of its ownership or have the benefits of its ownership? The world-view of a capitalist is more dynamic unlike the static thinking of a feudal lord. He will pragmatically own/acquire land if that is profitable in any way and sell it if not -lol.

[Toramana]

Babrak Karmel was Kashmiri.

Not just Babrak Karmal-many people in Kabul are Kashmiris by origin.

[tilla_jogian]

tilla_jogian, that "seth" word is an interesting story. It is that by mid of 20th Century, the Parachas of Mingora had become a very wealthy community through share hard work and industriousness (of course coupled with the business acumen that you may call chicanery depending on your social and moral standards).

Part of the reason for their success was also the patronage by the Wali of Swat who himself was non-Pashtun but was ruling a Pashtun population (which in fact is less than 50% Pashtun if we go by the strict definition of who is a Pashtun) and that needed some people with similar social background around as a mean of support and political deterrence against adversaries and competitors.

Anyhow, as the younger generation grew up they started using the same social title as the surrounding khans. For example Seth Kamran was called "Kamran Khan", which was unacceptable to the Khans of Mingora and the surrounding areas - so to remind Parachas their lowly place in society, these Khans started calling him "Seth Kamran".

Rest, I don't have investigated much the status of Paracha family in wider South Asia. But the current situation is, there is no longer much eagerness in Paracha to be called Pashtuns. Part of the reason is the transformation that has occurred with many ordinary people (lol---the so-called hamsayas) climbing the social ladder and with significant population now urbanized. They have kind of started looking beyond the demarcation of Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns to find a place and status at the broader level.

As for land, is it necessary you inherit land to feel the sense of its ownership or have the benefits of its ownership? The world-view of a capitalist is more dynamic unlike the static thinking of a feudal lord. He will pragmatically own/acquire land if that is profitable in any way and sell it if not -lol.

parachas to me sound like hindu khatris. Khatris are not kammi but are below zamindar in rural society. But this does not mean anything in urban areas of Pakistan where everyone is equal sort of and trading background is actually blessing. Sethi which is khatri caste, mean similar thing.

[Toramana]

But tilla_Jogian that doesn't mean Parachas and Pashtuns haven't entered into intimate social relations with each others. Whenever they have seen the glitter of power and wealth or status in each others ranks, they have got attracted to each others. For example, there is one famous Urologist (many of the early professional doctors of Mingora and Peshawar were Parachas) in Peshawar by the name of Dr. Bilal.

The sister of Air Chief Marshal Abbas Khattak was married to him. Khattaks are an influential Pashtun family of Jehangira.

Likewise, many khans of Swat will line up to enter into marriage relationship with the family of the Walis of Swat although it is a non-Pashtun family by the strict definition (mixed Gujar, Chitrali, Sayeds etc.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_Khattak

[Smarty]

A note on Jaji or Zazi tribe

@Khushal

[Kushan Prince]

Smarty,
Afghans consider the Pashtuns in Pakistan outside of FATA as "kam," "narom," and even "kacha." The tribes you mention (Wazir, Masuds, Afridis, Orakzai) of FATA consider the same of settled Pashtuns. Does this make the settled pashtun as non pashtun?

A jirga is when someone close to you sits with you to discuss matters that involve those people. So we have family jirgas where no one outside the family is allowed to sit, we have village jirgas where no one out side the village is allowed to sit, we have qom jirgas where no one outside the qom sits. The reason kabigars and damon dont sit in jirgas is because they are an extreme minority and they dont own any land that needs protection so therefore they have no incentive to form a viable fighting force to protect their land.

Words like Kacha, and Kam are just words. People behavior is guided by incentives and as long as those kasabgars and damon have no land that needs protection, then what is the incentive to die in battle. Why die to protect other people's land. Pashtun landowners label them baighyrat because they wont fight. Well, give them something so they can die defending it.

My answer was to tripledouble. The people in my village will put their necks on the line for the kasibgars and damon protection than imran khan or zahir shah. They have more respect for the former than the latter.

And we are all pashtunized people who originally spoke a different language, which is why the people of Jaji have a different accent than the people of Wazir who have a different accent from Mangal who have a different accent from Afridi. Also there are difference in our culture if you go from Qom to Qom.

We are a linguistic group, not an ethnic group who had one forefather.

No way bro Pashtuns are not a linguistic group, they are an ethnic group and identify as such. Pashtuns are a tribal people and tribes are basically an extended family who all at the end descend from one ancestor. Even Pashtuns are seen as a homogenous people and each tribe is similar in looks. Also take a look at the genetic spreadsheets of Pashtuns compared to other ethnic groups in Afghanistan, you will be amazed to see how close Pashtuns are while Tajiks came out to be the most diverse since they are not all the same people unlike Pashtuns.

Also 77% of Pashtuns are R1a in blood, that's a pretty good indication for a homogenous ethnic group. Tribal people in general are purer compared to people that don't live in tribes like tajiks or uzbeks. Dialects are region influenced, not tribal. That's why Arabs, Pashtuns and even Native Americans all look the same because they are one ethnic group. I expected more from you Khushal.

[Kushan Prince]

It is not opinion, All the evidence points to no progenitor. When one goes from tribe to tribe, we can see difference in accent(there are words that are even different), we can see difference in clothing, in culture.

If one looks at Nuristan, there are many tribes there that speak numerous different languages and are slowly becoming pashtunized. Each tribe have a different culture and each tribe have different clothing customs and different wedding customs. They all communicate with each other in pashto since that is the common language they all speak and each tribe when communicating in pashto have different accents.

I think your confused. Nobody in Nuristan is Pashtunized. Some Nooristanis speak Pashto and Dari but they are not considered Pashtun nor do they consider themselves as such. Nooristanis have kept to themselves for about 5,000 years now.

[tilla_jogian]

But tilla_Jogian that doesn't mean Parachas and Pashtuns haven't entered into intimate social relations with each others. Whenever they have seen the glitter of power and wealth or status in each others ranks, they have got attracted to each others. For example, there is one famous Urologist (many of the early professional doctors of Mingora and Peshawar were Parachas) in Peshawar by the name of Dr. Bilal.

The sister of Air Chief Marshal Abbas Khattak was married to him. Khattaks are an influential Pashtun family of Jehangira.

Likewise, many khans of Swat will line up to enter into marriage relationship with the family of the Walis of Swat although it is a non-Pashtun family by the strict definition (mixed Gujar, Chitrali, Sayeds etc.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_Khattak

Inter caste marriages are becoming more common in urban areas.

[Smarty]

[MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION] the author of above reference says that brown tinge in skin of Jajis is due to soot of pine trees which they use for firewood and their aversion to use of cold water......very interesting