Non-Pashtun Pashtuns and Pashtuns non-Pashtuns

[Smarty]

Khushal I tell you what is the precise problem with smarty . He in reality is primarily a Siraiki but is claiming Pashtun descent. The Mechan Khels he belongs to say they are Niazis but at the same time also claim to be Sayeds indicating the confusion in their minds and the shadowy nature of their origin.

Most likely they were from the Siraiki region of Mianwali or Bhakar that adjoins DI Khan that somehow ended up in Marwat area. Many Mechan Khels until recently retained the Siraik-Punjabi habits, e.g., the wearing the typical Punjabi-Siraiki dress of dhothi, and at some places still retaining the influence of Siraiki on the dialect that they speak.

You can find such people in southern districts of Bannu, DI Khan, Kohat that claim to be Niazis etc. but in reality are Jat/Awan.

Now living among Pashtuns these people live in a dilemma as how to define themselves. Sometimes, to prove themselves more Pashtuns than Pashtun themselves they glorify Pashtun history etc. as this Smarty is doing here.

Another characteristic of such transitional people is that they cannot place themselves decisively at one place or another as shown by the tribal expression of Pashtunwali by this Smarty and at the same time Paki nationalism.

For me being a Pashtun or non-Pashtun doesn't make a difference as long as I have a trust in who am I.

I am not amazad at your audacity behind PC screen. You are bred in westren society so you feel very confident in playing pashtun character but your kinsemen back home are not enjoying the same privilages as you are in west. Kamasal people are not allowed to sit in jirga and no pashtun give them their daughters. If some one do, it becomes a life time peghor for him and his family. Pashtun boys are taking advantage of subservience of your caste, they make friendships with girls of your households without fearing for consequences.

[khushal]

And according to that "code of conduct" i.e pashtunwali, serfs attached to you like karigars, are not pashtuns. If some one is part of pashtun society, he would understand that the word 'pashtun' doesnt stand for every pashto speaker in pashtun society. Mullah for example is not considered a pashtun, as he is not pashtun by lineage in most of the cases even though he would be speaking perfect pashto. Its because historically pashtuns were warrior and ruling class, for other professions, people from other races were hired. Afridis have told me that gun smiths of dara adam khel are not afridis, but lohar from punjab who were hired during british times.

Again I think its different from place to place. For example in our area of Paktia, the Mullahs are Pashtun, they are members of the tribe. Its more likely that the people that migrated from other areas to pashtun areas did not own land so they really had not choice but to develop a skills like kasab, damon, gun smiths, etc to feed themselves. Land ownership is the main factor that attaches you to the area. Most pashtuns, especially in the highlands get land through inheritance so they can easily prove lineage and when they sell their land, they first sell it to the their relative from their father side or an extended family member as long as they are connected to them from the father side.

Those people are not considered Pashtun like the ones who trace their lineage but they are still respected more by pashtuns than someone who was pashtun but has left pashto.

Go around and ask a pashtun would they consider someone who does not speak pashto and acts like a pimp a pashtun and then ask them if they consider Zahir Shah a pashtun, if they answer no to the first question and yes to the second question, then you have caught them in a hypocrisy since Zahir Shah was that person or ask them if they consider someone a pashtun who cant speak Pashto and allows his wife to sleep with other and ask them if they consider Imran Khan a pashtun, again its a hypocrisy if the answer no to the first one and yes to the second one.

The kasabgars and damon who speak pashto and follow pashtunwali in our village are respected more than Imran Khan and Zahir Shah.

[Smarty]

Correct, in that regard, he would be respected more than Imran Khan since Imran Khan has completely left pashto.

But it works like clay pottery where time is a big factor. The more time passes practicing the code of conduct and speaking pashto, the more it solidifies and hardens. It becomes more and more a part of the person and with each passing generation, it solidifies more.

It seems to me you need to learn more about your own Jaji qaum , spent too many years in west, or may be things are different there among Jajis. I have friends from highlands, Afridis, Orakzais, Wazirs, Mehsuds, Bajauris etc and i can arrange a sitting of them with you. It will be new thing for them to hear that their Kamasal ones practice Pashtunwali. Why do you thing they are considered "Kam"? because they dont practice Pashtunwali and are said to possess "kacha" habits and traits. What Pashtunwali ?when in traditional society it was/is the responsibility of a pashtun to protect the life of his serf. A Wazir told me his grandfather died while taking revenge for the Karigar Serf under him, when some one insulted him. The Izat of Hamsaya was/is your responsibility. Have you ever seen any Karigar sitting in Jirga?......have you heard about any Karigar with Topak let alone him taking bad for ghairat cause?....he was simply not allowed to , and he reduced like that. A person who is not landowner , whether in plains or hills, is not considered pashtun by default. If he is, then he is probably an asylum seeker.

[Toramana]

I am not amazad at your audacity behind PC screen. You are bred in westren society so you feel very confident in playing pashtun character but your kinsemen back home are not enjoying the same privilages as you are in west. Kamasal people are not allowed to sit in jirga and no pashtun give them their daughters. If some one do, it becomes a life time peghor for him and his family. Pashtun boys are taking advantage of subservience of your caste, they make friendships with girls of your households without fearing for consequences.

Lol-your response shows the identity crisis within you common to all low-life and luchak like your honour. I can well imagine how being as a machan khel the "treatment as the other" within the deeply traditional and conservative Pashtun people like Mrawat have caused psychological and emotional crisis within you that you are now trying to resolve through writing and posting the substandard and garbage articles about Pukhtun history here and elsewhere to make your Pukhtun claims and pedigree look more authentic and genuine.

Now being a Pukhtun or an Pukhtun-Siraiki Awan/Jat bilingual doesn't matter much for most of the sensible people as long as you behave nobly and don't present yourself and act like a Heramandi dalal.

So get the sensitivity about being a genuine Pashtun or not a genuine Pashtun out of your dumb a.s.s.h.o.l.e. People don't care whether you are a genuine Pashtun or not. They will only be bothered by the qachari that you occasionally exhibit here and most likely in real social life.

Hope I have made my point clear.

[Smarty]

sometimes u need to use to stick

I am very soft on them but they do exhibit very low character. Just few weeks ago, we were constructing the wall on one of our plot and i asked the Mullah of nearby house to lend us water supply for few days.....that Dam-turned mullah asked me to pay 1000 thousand rupees per day for water and donation for his madrassa. When i made the same request to a Pashtun of nearby house , he not only provided water supply free of cost but did the hospitality and sent us meal for laborers. Thats the difference between a Pashtun and Kamaya.

[Smarty]

Lol-your response shows the identity crisis within you common to all low-life and luchak like your honour. I can well imagine how being as a machan khel the "treatment as the other" within the deeply traditional and conservative Pashtun people like Mrawat have caused psychological and emotional crisis within you that you are now trying to resolve through writing and posting the substandard and garbage articles about Pukhtun history here and elsewhere to make your Pukhtun claims and pedigree look more authentic and genuine.

Now being a Pukhtun or an Pukhtun-Siraiki Awan/Jat bilingual doesn't matter much for most of the sensible people as long as you behave nobly and don't present yourself and act like a Heramandi dalal.

So get the sensitivity about being a genuine Pashtun or not a genuine Pashtun out of your dumb a.s.s.h.o.l.e. People don't care whether you are a genuine Pashtun or not. They will only be bothered by the qachari that you occasionally exhibit here and most likely in real social life.

Hope I have made my point clear.

What identity crisis? Mechan Khel is pseudo identity for security purpose, i am a marwat by lineage. Still Mechan Khel are land-owners and have their own villages in Lakki, Bannu and Waziristan.

Like i said, you have grown balls in west and behind PC screen. You are insulting people left and right under Pashtun identity, it can not be accepted. But again, if Saulat Mirza of MQM can claim to be a Yusufzai Pathan , then i am not surprised a Kamasal like you consider yourself more Pashtun than Pashtun themselves.

[Toramana]

Again I think its different from place to place. For example in our area of Paktia, the Mullahs are Pashtun, they are members of the tribe. Its more likely that the people that migrated from other areas to pashtun areas did not own land so they really had not choice but to develop a skills like kasab, damon, gun smiths, etc to feed themselves. Land ownership is the main factor that attaches you to the area. Most pashtuns, especially in the highlands get land through inheritance so they can easily prove lineage and when they sell their land, they first sell it to the their relative from their father side or an extended family member as long as they are connected to them from the father side.

Those people are not considered Pashtun like the ones who trace their lineage but they are still respected more by pashtuns than someone who was pashtun but has left pashto.

Go around and ask a pashtun would they consider someone who does not speak pashto and acts like a pimp a pashtun and then ask them if they consider Zahir Shah a pashtun, if they answer no to the first question and yes to the second question, then you have caught them in a hypocrisy since Zahir Shah was that person or ask them if they consider someone a pashtun who cant speak Pashto and allows his wife to sleep with other and ask them if they consider Imran Khan a pashtun, again its a hypocrisy if the answer no to the first one and yes to the second one.

The kasabgars and damon who speak pashto and follow pashtunwali in our village are respected more than Imran Khan and Zahir Shah.

Khushaal does being a Pashtun or non-Pashtun matter much ? Personally I damn care whether Khushaal is a genuine Pashtun or non-genuine Pashtun as long as I can connect with him as a human being on an intellectual basis compatible with my own intellect level although being a part of Pashtun society I have certain political and cultural obligations to Pashtuns that I will like to fulfil.

Only low-lives that have lived submissively in society and not having developed the rational ability to recognize his own worth as a human being will seek psychological support in tribal lineage or pedigree.

Unforunately this machan khel exhibits all the symptoms of an insecure schizophreniac social non-entity that can't rationally analyse his urges for social recognition.

[Toramana]

What identity crisis? Mechan Khel is pseudo identity for security purpose, i am a marwat by lineage. Still Mechan Khel are land-owners and have their own villages in Lakki, Bannu and Waziristan.

Like i said, you have grown balls in west and behind PC screen. You are insulting people left and right under Pashtun identity, it can not be accepted. But again, if Saulat Mirza of MQM can claim to be a Yusufzai Pathan , then i am not surprised a Kamasal like you consider yourself more Pashtun than Pashtun themselves.

Hahaha---that was nice. You know I own many hundred Jaraib of land. So what.

[Smarty]

Khushaal does being a Pashtun or non-Pashtun matters much ? Personally I damn care whether Khushaal is a genuine Pashtun or non-genuine Pashtun as long as I can connect with him as a human being on an intellectual basis compatible with my own intellect level although being a part of Pashtun society I have certain political and cultural obligations to Pashtuns that I will like to fulfil.

Only low-lives that have lived submissively in society and not having developed the rational ability to recognize his own worth as a human being will seek psychological support in tribal lineage or pedigree.

Unforunately this machan khel exhibits all the symptoms of an insecure schizophreniac social non-entity that can't rationally analyse his urges for social recognition.

One is born with an identity, only those with identity-crisis and dilemma like you will ask questions like that. Our history, our tribes, our lineage-tress, our elders......you have nothing to do with it and you dont have to bother and worry about it.

[Smarty]

Hahaha---that was nice. You know I own many hundred Jaraib of land. So what.

Lol at you. Like a typical fool born and bred in west, you showed your ignorance about our society.

[khushal]

It seems to me you need to learn more about your own Jaji qaum , spent too many years in west, or may be things are different there among Jajis. I have friends from highlands, Afridis, Orakzais, Wazirs, Mehsuds, Bajauris etc and i can arrange a sitting of them with you. It will be new thing for them to hear that their Kamasal ones practice Pashtunwali. Why do you thing they are considered "Kam"? because they dont practice Pashtunwali and are said to possess "kacha" habits and traits. What Pashtunwali ?when in traditional society it was/is the responsibility of a pashtun to protect the life of his serf. A Wazir told me his grandfather died while taking revenge for the Karigar Serf under him, when some one insulted him. The Izat of Hamsaya was/is your responsibility. Have you ever seen any Karigar sitting in Jirga?......have you heard about any Karigar with Topak let alone him taking bad for ghairat cause?....he was simply not allowed to , and he reduced like that. A person who is not landowner , whether in plains or hills, is not considered pashtun by default. If he is, then he is probably an asylum seeker.

Smarty,
Afghans consider the Pashtuns in Pakistan outside of FATA as "kam," "narom," and even "kacha." The tribes you mention (Wazir, Masuds, Afridis, Orakzai) of FATA consider the same of settled Pashtuns. Does this make the settled pashtun as non pashtun?

A jirga is when someone close to you sits with you to discuss matters that involve those people. So we have family jirgas where no one outside the family is allowed to sit, we have village jirgas where no one out side the village is allowed to sit, we have qom jirgas where no one outside the qom sits. The reason kabigars and damon dont sit in jirgas is because they are an extreme minority and they dont own any land that needs protection so therefore they have no incentive to form a viable fighting force to protect their land.

Words like Kacha, and Kam are just words. People behavior is guided by incentives and as long as those kasabgars and damon have no land that needs protection, then what is the incentive to die in battle. Why die to protect other people's land. Pashtun landowners label them baighyrat because they wont fight. Well, give them something so they can die defending it.

My answer was to tripledouble. The people in my village will put their necks on the line for the kasibgars and damon protection than imran khan or zahir shah. They have more respect for the former than the latter.

And we are all pashtunized people who originally spoke a different language, which is why the people of Jaji have a different accent than the people of Wazir who have a different accent from Mangal who have a different accent from Afridi. Also there are difference in our culture if you go from Qom to Qom.

We are a linguistic group, not an ethnic group who had one forefather.

[Smarty]

We are a linguistic group, not an ethnic group who had one forefather.

It is your personal opinion, we Pashtuns do believe that all members of a tribe are descended from a single progenitor, an ancestor. For example we Lohanri (Lohani) are descended from a person by name of Luhan, one of whose son was Marwat. The Lohani then trace descent from Ibrahim alias lodi, son of bibi mato. Lodis , Ghilzais and bettanis, would be sharing common lineage.

In our history, a person like Toramana was never elected chief of tribe, not even allowed to participate in qaumi affairs. Even today, in regional politics , it is very essential to have pashtun lineage, not kamasal background. World might be moving in 21st century, but i am talking about norms of pashtun society. Even after generations, people remember that his grandmother or great-grandmother was from a thrakan family or chamar family, not pashtun.

Now this Tor-kwanay is opening threads like this, basically mocking us.

[Toramana]

One is born with an identity, only those with identity-crisis and dilemma like you will ask questions like that. Our history, our tribes, our lineage-tress, our elders......you have nothing to do with it and you dont have to bother and worry about it.

Moron, identity has many forms and plays at many levels from personal to global human identity. If you place too much emphasis on your tribal identity that may be an indication of low self-esteem and lack of confidence in yourself as an autonomous fully functional conscious entity independent of tribe.

Furthermore, not all layers of identities need be present and at play, e.g., post modern society has long gone beyond narrow tribal lines and demarcations.

Anyhow, that is your choice if you want to stick to your tribal macho-man type egoistic self consciousness that characterise primitive cultures we don't have objection to that. But we want the rest of Pashtuns to go beyond that.

[khushal]

Khushaal does being a Pashtun or non-Pashtun matter much ? Personally I damn care whether Khushaal is a genuine Pashtun or non-genuine Pashtun as long as I can connect with him as a human being on an intellectual basis compatible with my own intellect level although being a part of Pashtun society I have certain political and cultural obligations to Pashtuns that I will like to fulfil.

Only low-lives that have lived submissively in society and not having developed the rational ability to recognize his own worth as a human being will seek psychological support in tribal lineage or pedigree.

Unforunately this machan khel exhibits all the symptoms of an insecure schizophreniac social non-entity that can't rationally analyse his urges for social recognition.

To me personally, it does not matter. I have more respect for someone who is truthful of who they are and where they stand than someone who is wanna be and manipulative.

[khushal]

It is your personal opinion, we Pashtuns do believe that all members of a tribe are descended from a single progenitor, an ancestor. For example we Lohanri (Lohani) are descended from a person by name of Luhan, one of whose son was Marwat. The Lohani then trace descent from Ibrahim alias lodi, son of bibi mato. Lodis , Ghilzais and bettanis, would be sharing common lineage.

It is not opinion, All the evidence points to no progenitor. When one goes from tribe to tribe, we can see difference in accent(there are words that are even different), we can see difference in clothing, in culture.

If one looks at Nuristan, there are many tribes there that speak numerous different languages and are slowly becoming pashtunized. Each tribe have a different culture and each tribe have different clothing customs and different wedding customs. They all communicate with each other in pashto since that is the common language they all speak and each tribe when communicating in pashto have different accents.