Non-Pashtun Pashtuns and Pashtuns non-Pashtuns

[Smarty]

Moron, identity has many forms and plays at many levels from personal to global human identity. If you place too much emphasis on your tribal identity that may be an indication of low self-esteem and lack of confidence in yourself as an autonomous fully functional conscious entity independent of tribe.

Furthermore, not all layers of identities need be present and at play, e.g., post modern society has long gone beyond narrow tribal lines and demarcations.

Anyhow, that is your choice if you want to stick to your tribal macho-man type egoistic self consciousness that characterise primitive cultures we don't have objection to that. But we want the rest of Pashtuns to go beyond that.

Toro, i am aware about layers of identity, i was talking about ethnic identity. I am Pakistani and you are Canadian, that is one layer of identity. I am muslim and you are a napak atheist, that is another layer. I am Pashtun and you are a paracha , that is another one.

[Smarty]

It is not opinion, All the evidence points to no progenitor. When one goes from tribe to tribe, we can see difference in accent(there are words that are even different), we can see difference in clothing, in culture.

If one looks at Nuristan, there are many tribes there that speak numerous different languages and are slowly becoming pashtunized. Each tribe have a different culture and each tribe have different clothing customs and different wedding customs. They all communicate with each other in pashto since that is the common language they all speak and each tribe when communicating in pashto have different accents.

I have read that Jajis and Turis are Pashtunized Pashtun tribes like Mashwanis and Gandapurs.

[khushal]

It is your personal opinion, we Pashtuns do believe that all members of a tribe are descended from a single progenitor, an ancestor. For example we Lohanri (Lohani) are descended from a person by name of Luhan, one of whose son was Marwat. The Lohani then trace descent from Ibrahim alias lodi, son of bibi mato. Lodis , Ghilzais and bettanis, would be sharing common lineage.

In our history, a person like Toramana was never elected chief of tribe, not even allowed to participate in qaumi affairs. Even today, in regional politics , it is very essential to have pashtun lineage, not kamasal background. World might be moving in 21st century, but i am talking about norms of pashtun society. Even after generations, people remember that his grandmother or great-grandmother was from a thrakan family or chamar family, not pashtun.

Now this Tor-kwanay is opening threads like this, basically mocking us.

I dont want to get in the middle of you and Toramana. That has something to do with Paki politics.

I have to go attend a family function now, Ill retort to your latter part later.

Also think about how pashtun measure each other. Pashtuns dont like to be "kam" to others and the kasibgars and damon have accepted the "kam" label and as long as they have accepted it, they wont be respected. Its just like how the Brits took India so easily, the people had accepted the "Kam" mentality from the caste system and did not resist the brits while the brits went through hell in afghanistan becasue of a different miindset from the people.

[tilla_jogian]

It depends on who you ask and where you ask.

In reality, the look does not matter, if you look at many pashtun families, you can see green eyed, light haired, light skinned members as well as dark skinned that resemble the people from southern India in the same family. The look does not qualify or disqualify them.

In the area I am from, Jaji, Paktia. We have kasabgars and damon who came from somewhere else, they all practice pashtunwali and speak pashto, while we don't consider them as Pashtun as the rest of the tribal members because they pashtunified much later than the tribe, they still are considered pashtun and have the full protection of the tribe much like any other member of the tribe. If they have a dispute with a member of the tribe, they are given equal rights as any other member.
Because of the time factor, the tribal members would consider themselves more pashtun than them.

The pashtun that live in the mountains are different from the pashtuns that live in the settled area. The highland pashtun consider the settled pashtun as "narom"- soft and follow some parts of pashtunwali and leave other parts out as it suits them. The difference is that the settled pashtun live in a feudal structure much like Panjab whose elites have acquired a lot of land and wealth and the people that live on their land are servants while the highland pashtun still lives in a tribal structure where it is impossible for elites to acquire much land and wealth since their is very little of it.

To get back to your original question about the somali with the characters you describe, he would be respected more in the highlands than Imran Khan but not in the settled areas. But keep in mind that the highland pashtun have kept the more of the pashun culture than the settled pashtun so their opinion would count more.

Ofcourse there will be diversity in looks, you guys don't live in planet mars. You have indic blood in your veins, get tested if you don't believe me. Thats why you guys call kammi people indic despite these people speaking east iranian language. I guess they are little darker then upper caste pathans on average which is the case all over South Asia. But as it happen anywhere, zamindar people take kammi wifes and have childrens with them. So thats how mixing happen despite restrictions even if rarely.

All I know is zamindar people in Punjab used to give kammi people free land to build homes and serve zamindars. These same kammi landless people migrated to Afghanistan also. They are not awans/jat but kammis.

There are two types of kammi people, one come in menial caste category. They are mussali/chuhras, nai, machi these people serve zamindar folk etc 2nd category is artisan comunities like tarkhan, kumehar, mirasis. These comunities/tribes are considered above menial castes but obviously still kammi.

I wonder which category @Toramana belong to?

[khushal]

Ofcourse there will be diversity in looks, you guys don't live in planet mars. You have indic blood in your veins, get tested if you don't believe me. Thats why you guys call kammi people indic despite these people speaking east iranian language. I guess they are little darker then upper caste pathans on average which is the case all over South Asia. But as it happen anywhere, zamindar people take kammi wifes and have childrens with them. So thats how mixing happen despite restrictions even if rarely.

All I know is zamindar people in Punjab used to give kammi people free land to build homes and serve zamindars. These same kammi landless people migrated to Afghanistan also. They are not awans/jat but kammis.

There are two types of kammi people, one come in menial caste category. They are mussali/chuhras, nai, machi these people serve zamindar folk etc 2nd category is artisan comunities like tarkhan, kumehar, mirasis. These comunities/tribes are considered above menial castes but obviously still kammi.

I wonder which category @Toramana belong to?

We dont really know exactly where they came from, some came from India, others came from Persia, but Pashtuns dont have a caste system like you indic people do.

[khushal]

I have read that Jajis and Turis are Pashtunized Pashtun tribes like Mashwanis and Gandapurs.

I dont know anything about Mashwanis and Gandapurs but what our elders say and what Turis I have met say and what historical facts say are all different.

What have you read?

[kanishka]

Let us talk about this topic.

There are non-Pashtuns Pashtuns that speak Pashto yet are not Pashtuns. Then there are Pashtuns that don't speak Pashto or live amongst Pashtuns yet are Pashtuns.

This is an interesting situation.

Probably, Smutty aka Goofy may throw some light on this issue

that's basically what i am

we got Qizilbash, Tajiks, Punjabis, that are being absorbed into the pashtun culture and nation


then PAshtuns that leave that nation are mixing up with farsiwans and south asian people...


i am a Pashtun that came from the Urdu speaking community of Karachi. I'm guessing that we don't get along with Pashto speakers that much and alot of us have sucked up for Altaf Hussain's MQM and prolly none of us took a stance with the ANP


but i hated pakistani people in general so i became a white wannabe. I found out i was of pashtun ancestry, i looked up my kind, found out the durand line and bam, i am here

[kanishka]

Pashtuns are a linguistic group, not an ethnic group. One must be able to speak Pashto, follow Pashto's code of conduct and culture in order to be Pashtun. One who has strayed from this, we say "pashto a prai khwalay," therefore he/she is no longer counted as Pashtun.

This is why we consider terms like Panjabi, Jatt, Kabuli, Farsiwan, Hindu as insults because they follow a non independent or submissive mentality.

and what about Pashtuns that can speak Pashto with their families but they don't act like Pashtuns....

as with the case of myself knowing Urbanized Pashtuns ignoring Pashtunwali :/

[khushal]

and what about Pashtuns that can speak Pashto with their families but they don't act like Pashtuns....

as with the case of myself knowing Urbanized Pashtuns ignoring Pashtunwali :/

Again, it depends on who and where you ask. As I explained to Luffy/Smarty the highland Pashtun thinks of the Urban or settled Pashtun as "Kam."

Pashtunwali evolves in Urban settings. The rural and the urban settings are two different environments. One can not live the same way in the city as in the village or vise-versa.

[Badlun]

Pashtuns are a linguistic group, not an ethnic group. One must be able to speak Pashto, follow Pashto's code of conduct and culture in order to be Pashtun. One who has strayed from this, we say "pashto a prai khwalay," therefore he/she is no longer counted as Pashtun.

This is why we consider terms like Panjabi, Jatt, Kabuli, Farsiwan, Hindu as insults because they follow a non independent or submissive mentality.

This is totally wrong. Pashtuns is ethnicity. We are one ethnic group or race. As no race is 100% pure, the same is Pashtun ethnicity but we are not at all a linguistic group. A Pashtun born out of Pashtunland , of cannot speak Pashto, does not outcast him/her from Pashtunhood.

When you say Pashto ye prexwala(Left Pashto), does not mean leaving of Pashto language but Pashto as a code of life or Pashtunwali. The term Pashto is a homonym which means language and Pashtun way of life.

There are millions of Pashtuns like Nyazis, Muhammadzais, Gandapur, Alizai, Lodhis etc who cannot speak a single word of Pashto, but it does not disqualify then to be a Pashtun. There are many like Parachas who only speak Pashto but they are not Pashtuns at all.

Yes ideal Pashtun is the one who is born from Pashtun parents, speak Pashto and practices Pashtunwali.

[Smarty]

Again, it depends on who and where you ask. As I explained to Luffy/Smarty the highland Pashtun thinks of the Urban or settled Pashtun as "Kam."

Pashtunwali evolves in Urban settings. The rural and the urban settings are two different environments. One can not live the same way in the city as in the village or vise-versa.

Settled area doesnt mean urban area. The term settled area was used by british for the areas under direct british administration while agencies were administred through political agents under FCR laws. There is ofcourse no settled and "ilaqa-e-ghair" concept in Afghanistan. And your "kam" word for settled areas pashtuns is non-sensical. Zhob is mountainous region and is settled area. Domail is plain settled area and is inhabited by Ahmadzai wazirs. Dir is settled mountainous area and its people are similar to people of bajaur of FATA.

[Smarty]

I dont know anything about Mashwanis and Gandapurs but what our elders say and what Turis I have met say and what historical facts say are all different.

What have you read?

They along with wardaks are list as pashto speaking non-pashtun tribes in books. I read that Jajis are not considered true Afghans by neighbouring tribes even though they claim to be karlanri. Dr.bellow thinks Turis are basically awans while jajis are kira kitai (or some thing like that ) from iran (i must say Dr.bellow's theories cant be taken seriously). I would do a proper study of your tribe though. I have not seen jajis but lot of turis. Turis are quite dark-skinned and short for highlanders, very different from bangash. A bangash told me that turis were once hamsaya of bangash, who got rid of serfdom and acquired territories through conquests. A Turi told me that they have migrated from iran and conquered territories from bangashs and orakzais.

[Badlun]

They along with wardaks are list as pashto speaking non-pashtun tribes in books. I read that Jajis are not considered true Afghans by neighbouring tribes even though they claim to be karlanri. Dr.bellow thinks Turis are basically awans while jajis are kira kitai (or some thing like that ) from iran (i must say Dr.bellow's theories cant be taken seriously). I would do a proper study of your tribe though. I have not seen jajis but lot of turis. Turis are quite dark-skinned and short for highlanders, very different from bangash. A bangash told me that turis were once hamsaya of bangash, who got rid of serfdom and acquired territories through conquests. A Turi told me that they have migrated from iran and conquered territories from bangashs and orakzais.

This is a conspiracy of non Pashtuns and enemies of Pashtuns to belittle tribes like Turis, Wardak, Jajis etc that they are not original Pashtuns. They are Pashtuns like any other Pashtun. Turis are especially targeted because they are Shias.

If you go by this argument they come from Iran etc, then the whole Pashtun ethnic group is not Pashtun because we do not know wherefrom they came to the present location and previously there was no Afghanistan or Pashtunistan, so the land was called by different names including the name of Iran for the whole area.

[DSM0305]

One is Pashtun, when he acts in the interest of Pashtuns. Unlike the Indic people, we don't have a caste system, kam-asal Pashtun label is mostly used by western born people and is out of touch with reality. Kam-asal is an ordinary insult in Pashtun society and have nothing to do with identity.

In this topic, everyone seems to be very emotional invested and forgot their rational thinking. Pashtuns were warriors in ancient times and not some academics, so not much have been written about their origins. Basically whether it is linage or linguistics, in the end it doesn't matter. What matters is whose interest the person working towards.
It doesn't matter if our interest for Pashtuns is based upon conservatism, modernism, religion, nationalism or something else. but rather the fact that the purpose of the action was meant for the interest of Pashtuns.

To give an example.
Taliban will be considered a Pashtun interest, but so will the likes of Najibulah, Daud Khan, Ashraf Ghani, Karzai as well. The point is, it not about what ones ideology is, but rather whose interest you have in mind. One can argue whether those mention above are good or bad, but one thing they had in common was that they represented an interest of Pashtuns(whether they succeed or failed, its another discussion).

Lets take Abdullah x2 as an example. He desperately claimed Pashtun linage to win the election, but he actively worked against Pashtun interest. This was one and foremost reason that he was disqualified as Pashtun. In the other hand, we had a Persian speaking General whose Pashtun linage was a bit foggy, but because he worked in Pashtuns interest, he was considered a Pashtun even amongst Persian speakers.

To make everything short. If one supports Pashtun interest, he is a Pashtun. Linguistics and linage is in the foggy site of the realm, and everyone can claim and pretend. Whether one is Indian or Persian, all of them can pretend to be Pashtuns. In the end what matters is whose interest one works toward, and also the only way to identify a Pashtun.

[Badlun]

[QUOTE=DSM0305;762030]One is Pashtun, when he acts in the interest of Pashtuns. Unlike the Indic people, we don't have a caste system, kam-asal Pashtun label is mostly used by western born people and is out of touch with reality. Kam-asal is an ordinary insult in Pashtun society and have nothing to do with identity.

In this topic, everyone seems to be very emotional invested and forgot their rational thinking. Pashtuns were warriors in ancient times and not some academics, so not much have been written about their origins. Basically whether it is linage or linguistics, in the end it doesn't matter. What matters is whose interest the person working towards.
It doesn't matter if our interest for Pashtuns is based upon conservatism, modernism, religion, nationalism or something else. but rather the fact that the purpose of the action was meant for the interest of Pashtuns.

To give an example.
Taliban will be considered a Pashtun interest, but so will the likes of Najibulah, Daud Khan, Ashraf Ghani, Karzai as well. The point is, it not about what ones ideology is, but rather whose interest you have in mind. One can argue whether those mention above are good or bad, but one thing they had in common was that they represented an interest of Pashtuns(whether they succeed or failed, its another discussion).

Lets take Abdullah x2 as an example. He desperately claimed Pashtun linage to win the election, but he actively worked against Pashtun interest. This was one and foremost reason that he was disqualified as Pashtun. In the other hand, we had a Persian speaking General whose Pashtun linage was a bit foggy, but because he worked in Pashtuns interest, he was considered a Pashtun even amongst Persian speakers.

To make everything short. If one supports Pashtun interest, he is a Pashtun. Linguistics and linage is in the foggy site of the realm, and everyone can claim and pretend. Whether one is Indian or Persian, all of them can pretend to be Pashtuns. In the end what matters is whose interest one works toward, and also the only way to identify a Pashtun.[/QUOTE

This is a very strange standpoint. Many orientalists, people like Osama, Russians, Americans, Chinese, and other non Pashtuns claim to work for the interest of Pashtuns, but it does not qualify him/her to be a Pashtun.

Pashtuns are sons/daughetrs of one father/mother and children can be good or bad but their actions do not disqualify them to be be children of their parents. Taliban are the worst enemies of Pashtuns but they are Pashtuns.Mother Teresa if would come to Afghanistan and help Pashtuns and work for their interest wont make her Pashtun.

Lineage is the most important factor to be Pashtun or not. Language and Pashtunwali are secondary qualifications.